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liangshepherd

How to counter dds in non radar cruisers?

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First of all this is not a complaint or rant about balance. I have been having losing streaks in Zao and Roon lately despite I have above average damage. I have been thinking how to have more impact on the game : one thing I have noticed is that I am having trouble countering dds in these ships compared to Des Moines. Well, few ships counter dds as DM and I am not expecting Zao and Roon (Hindenburg) perform the same. But I am wondering if shooting them as soon as they pop up is the only strategy I got?

Let's say our capping dd dies before theirs, without dds or radar or planes, should we still contest the cap or should we just move on? If there is only one dd stealing a cap then I guess I can turn on sonar and get close. But I don't see much point if the other side have roughly equal support.

Again, this is just a tactical/strategy question as a cruiser player. Not advocating any change to the game whatsoever.  

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Keep your hydro running in high risk DD area and try to bait torps, then charge him.

Might work, might not. Depends on the DD.

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As a Zao, kite away and launch rear facing torpedoes to zone. You won’t be able to push a DD solo in most cases unless they’re trapped by islands.

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Okay a couple of questions:

 

1. Do you have RPF as part of your CO skills?

2. Do you have hydro extended range mod in your Zao upgrades?

3. Do you have the legendary mod installed?

I'll tell you more once you answered those questions.

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6 minutes ago, JB_24 said:

Keep your hydro running in high risk DD area and try to bait torps, then charge him.

Might work, might not. Depends on the DD.

That's as best as I can come up with if I have to rush a dd. I don't have much success especially in Zao. It's almost embarrassing. 

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vigilance, spotter planes, fighter planes... map awareness...

16 minutes ago, liangshepherd said:

First of all this is not a complaint or rant about balance. I have been having losing streaks in Zao 

I want you to change your spec to the following

4tier 1 skills. PT PM EL DCCA (double fighter or spotter plane)

tier 2, EM and AR

tier3, vigilance

tier 4, RL (rpf) CE

 

you are a leopard, you are magnificent, you don't get hunted.. you hunt... you lie in wait. …. trust me.

See the source image

Edited by Abides

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2 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Okay a couple of questions:

 

1. Do you have RPF as part of your CO skills?

2. Do you have hydro extended range mod in your Zao upgrades?

3. Do you have the legendary mod installed?

I'll tell you more once you answered those questions.

1. No. 2. No. 3 Working on it.

I would like to try 1 and 2 if you recommend. 

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Mogami with the 155mm  main guns, Premium Hydro and Catapult Fighter work really well in ant DD role. DD trying to smoke up you have 4 sets of 5 Torps that travel 10km so launch them into the smoke to beat the DDs at their own game. Or hydro can work wonders and allow your guns to deal with the DD while allowing you to spot incoming torps  and evade them. The Catapult fight lasts over 5 minutes in the air so that can help you spot torpedoes as well.

And actually any of the Japanese cruisers tier 4+ can use these tricks. Some were actually intended to escort DD squadrons, they are quite capable of killing DDs.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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4 minutes ago, Abides said:

vigilance, spotter planes, fighter planes... map awareness...

I want you to change your spec to the following

4tier 1 skills. PT PM EL DCCA (double fighter or spotter plane)

tier 2, EM and AR

tier3, vigilance

tier 4, RL (rpf) CE

 

you are a leopard, you are magnificent, you don't get hunted.. you hunt... you lie in wait. …. trust me.

See the source image

Do I still need vigilance if I equip sonar? Kind of still want to preserve my fire starting skill. 

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Main problem with a DD during the cap contesting phase who has killed your DD team mate is that it will cause focus fire on any squishy ship it sees. In which the only course of action you have is to run away.

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4 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Mogami with the 155mm  main guns, Premium Hydro and Catapult Fighter work really well in ant DD role. DD trying to smoke up you have 4 sets of 5 Torps that travel 10km so launch them into the smoke to beat the DDs at their own game. Or hydro can work wonders and allow your guns to deal with the DD while allowing you to spot incoming torps  and evade them. The Catapult fight lasts over 5 minutes in the air so that can help you spot torpedoes as well.

And actually any of the Japanese cruisers tier 4+ can use these tricks. Some were actually intended to escort DD squadrons, they are quite capable of killing DDs.

I have much better experience in Mogami than in Zao. Probably because of the gun numbers with the reload.

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You don't.  With skillful play you can combat them, but you cannot counter them.  Your ability to combat them relies significantly on the DD and the DD's team misplaying.  You're better at combating them than a BB is, but overall are closer to a BB's level than you are to a radar cruiser or DD's ability to counter them.

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RPF is going to be your most powerful too to counter dd's w/o radar. If you're spotted and the ship is no visible' he's inside your detection limit, but he's outside his. The rpf tell you the direction to him. That gives you a rough idea of the grid square he's in. You'll need to look at the minimap closely on this one. I hope you have the mini map blown up and the display options enabled. Extended range mod works very well when you are detected and you can't see him. Because if the targeted indicator goes up by 1 then drops...well expect an inbound fish sandwich at that point. If it's 1 vs 1, I normally chase him down by pointing the bow toward him and pin him against the border. What you do not want is to him to lead you into his buddies and force you into a 1 vs many scenario. Your tactical decision will depend if its 1 vs 1, there's a border to pin the dd against and are there buddies to help you or help him. You may have to break off the chase at some point. Lobbing a few fish in his direction, normally helps. If he smokes up, torp the smoke.

Edited by Bill_Halsey
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3 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

RPF is going to be your most powerful too to counter dd's w/o radar. If you're spotted and the ship is no visible' he's inside your detection limit, but he's outside his. The rpf tell you the direction to him. That gives you a rough idea of the grid square he's in. You'll need to look at the minimap closely on this one. I hope you have the mini map blown up and the display options enabled. Extended range mod works very well when you are detected and you can't see him. Because if the targeted indicator goes up by 1 then drops...well expect an inbound fish sandwich at that point. If it's 1 vs 1, I normally chase him down by pointing the bow toward him and pin him against the border. What I do not want is to him to lead you into his buddies and force you into a 1 vs many scenario. your tactical decision will depend if its 1 vs 1, there's a border to pin the dd against and are there buddies to help you or help him. You may have to break off the chase at some point. Lobbing a few fish in his direction, normally helps. If he smokes up, torp the smoke.

Great advices! Thank you!

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Just now, liangshepherd said:

Do I still need vigilance if I equip sonar? Kind of still want to preserve my fire starting skill. 

I love the zao, to the point where I may be weird about it.... I use def fire, not so much for CVs but need to shoot down spotter planes quickly...….but with Vigilance you shouldn't, plus you have two spotter/fighter(for 6 minutes)... I choose spotter for early game range...help you spot torpedoes...ok, as for your fire starting skill

… I don't have the full skinny.... but at tier 10 your fire chance is cut by 50%.... the bilge rats will confirm this.. plus with all the fire reductions flags and skills.... you waste 3 points on demolition expert. This ship is a predator. Play it like one.

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The biggest point I would make about this is that you don't necessarily have to kill him to counter him. If you keep him from going where he needs to go (e.g. getting on a cap, or flanking your battleships), you're still effectively shutting him down. If you take away enough of his hit points that he can't fight your team's destroyers anymore, you've shut him down. If you make him waste time running across the map to try and push up the other side, you've shut him down.

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4 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

You don't.  With skillful play you can combat them, but you cannot counter them.  Your ability to combat them relies significantly on the DD and the DD's team misplaying.  You're better at combating them than a BB is, but overall are closer to a BB's level than you are to a radar cruiser or DD's ability to counter them.

I agree with you. However as Zao or Roon I usually survive till late game where I have to deal with any surviving dds. And that's why I post the question.

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1 minute ago, Edgecase said:

The biggest point I would make about this is that you don't necessarily have to kill him to counter him. If you keep him from going where he needs to go (e.g. getting on a cap, or flanking your battleships), you're still effectively shutting him down. If you take away enough of his hit points that he can't fight your team's destroyers anymore, you've shut him down. If you make him waste time running across the map to try and push up the other side, you've shut him down.

Situational. Random or clan battles. Beginning, mid or late phase? The biggest danger of a DD to a CA is being torped unaware. Or a dd spotting for his buddies.

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7 minutes ago, liangshepherd said:

Great advices! Thank you!

Gimme a cool on my post and we'll call it even.

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2 minutes ago, liangshepherd said:

I agree with you. However as Zao or Roon I usually survive till late game where I have to deal with any surviving dds. And that's why I post the question.

Once you've reach late game, unless your team is being utterly stomped, the ability of non-radar cruisers to fight DDs is very significantly stronger than in the early game because the DD lacks the team support to semi-reliably get you blapped simply by keeping you spotted.  The DD's team should be scattered and much reduced with each ship having its own problems to deal with and less able to support the DD that is being charged by a Zao or Roon or such.

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1 minute ago, liangshepherd said:

I agree with you. However as Zao or Roon I usually survive till late game where I have to deal with any surviving dds. And that's why I post the question.

the Roon is also sexy. but completely different... she is the queen of kiting.... She is the queen of baby got back..... start the game, get quasi close to the caps.... turn away... slowly zig and zag backwards and forwards…. always showing your rear... the Roon's strength is running away not pushing forward. A Roon can burn down any ship in the game that is foolish enough to chase her.

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1 minute ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Situational. Random or clan battles. Beginning, mid or late phase? The biggest danger of a DD to a CA is being torped unaware. Or a dd spotting for his buddies.

Of course everything is situational. This isn't such a flowchart game that you can explain the "correct" response to everything in a couple paragraphs.

But my point is still the same: Think more broadly than "kill the f'er" when it comes to countering a ship that is smaller, faster, and stealthier than you.

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21 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Some were actually intended to escort DD squadrons, they are quite capable of killing DDs.

I wish more battleships would learn they are also quite capable of killing destroyers; the number of crippled destroyers I see get away because a battleship won’t shoot at them boggles the mind.

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43 minutes ago, liangshepherd said:

First of all this is not a complaint or rant about balance. I have been having losing streaks in Zao and Roon lately despite I have above average damage. I have been thinking how to have more impact on the game : one thing I have noticed is that I am having trouble countering dds in these ships compared to Des Moines. Well, few ships counter dds as DM and I am not expecting Zao and Roon (Hindenburg) perform the same. But I am wondering if shooting them as soon as they pop up is the only strategy I got?

Let's say our capping dd dies before theirs, without dds or radar or planes, should we still contest the cap or should we just move on? If there is only one dd stealing a cap then I guess I can turn on sonar and get close. But I don't see much point if the other side have roughly equal support.

Again, this is just a tactical/strategy question as a cruiser player. Not advocating any change to the game whatsoever.  

It is called "Radio Location", train it,use it, enjoy it...

1.thumb.JPG.03026afd6a17aece477374f3106d81d6.JPG

 

Edited by C_D

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