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axlzero

destroyers at lower tiers have an unfair advantage now

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Ive been playing at lower tiers 5,6,7 and lets face it cruisers are not doing their primary jobs hunting down destroyers they are too busy farming fire damage on battleships.  Destroyers are being ignored by them and with the AP Nerf on battleships HE shells do not pack enough smack to take them down and the switching between shell types is a problem you fire your AP at them and do nothing switch over to HE for the next volley and then they disappear cause they are too stealthy then you switch back to ap and they reappear and now your ineffective AP is loaded.  Your secondaries don't have the range or the potency to sink the destroyers witch for most battleships that is their main purpose. basically cry baby destroyer players have made is so they have an unfair advantage against battleships

i propose the following changes to destroyers and battleships for consideration 

1.  Visible Destroyers if they fire their torpedoes off they are visible from the time of launch.  (cause if you can see the ship you can see the people firing the torpedo on the ships.)

2.  Once a destroyer has been spotted it remains spotted til it goes into smoke screen or or goes outside of 12 km (to keep the them lit the battleships fire star shells from secondaries)

3. if you close to within 3 km of a smoke screen you can see the ships in it and only you (this way your secondaries can open up) or your secondary batteries open up and rake the smoke screen if they set the ship on fire it automatically spots the ships in the smoke screen

4.  Battleship HE is made more effective against destroyers (if you fire an entire broadside of battleship HE against a destroyer and more then 4 of them hit it should destroy the ship and most of the time it isn't)

I'm not too sure how dds do at higher tiers play but these changes would help a lot on lower tier battleships especially the ones without spotter planes sonar and radar 

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1. No.

2. Also no. They'll remain spotted if they keep shooting guns outside of their normal detection already.

3. Automatic/proximity spotting is already 2km. 3km isn't needed, as it wouldn't result in pretty much anything.

4. Also no. If you're accurate enough an entire broadside of HE or AP will nuke a ship in 2 total broadsides. Learn how to WASD to avoid torps, and while he's reloading them torps, get two salvos out. Problem solved.

If I had to hazard a guess, you aren't running Vigilance, and likely have a low-point captain. And like sailing straight lines.

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somehow I want open water stealth firing back if you think its bad now with DDs stealth torping remember when they could sit at like 8km and just firing there guns without needed smoke.

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oh

my

god.

So let's see here....cruisers are not doing their job, so nerf DDs.

I think it would be better if Wargaming had better tutorials available to players so they can git gud.

I don't know how many times I have seen a German cruiser run away from a dd in a smoke screen.

The player has no clue about the power of his hydro and how to use it.

I don't know how many times I see ANY cruiser turn and flee from a smoke screen rather than pop hydro and charge.

That is NOT the DDs fault and nerfing them is not the answer.

The player base skill level is steadily deteriorating . It has gotten to the point where players around since beta are constantly salty because of seeing the same mistakes for over 3 years.

 

Educating the players is your answer.

Not the nerf bat.

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@J30_Reinhardt points 1,2,3 points taken.  Point 4 you don't half to be rude and an entire broadside of AP will not destroy a destroyer if you only have 8 guns most are over pens. At the ranges they become spotted in a battleships forwards tactics you don't get a second chance.  The big reason asking for this change is that there is problems with lower tier player base they are not playing their ships right and i half to keep going into carry mode. Something has to be done about destroyers cause now they are even harder to kill at lower tiers for battleships when the cruisers and DDs drop the ball.  Hell your an alpha tester test the dam thing you will find i'm right ive come to this from grinding for 2 months at tier 5 and 6

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7 minutes ago, axlzero said:

@J30_Reinhardt points 1,2,3 points taken.  Point 4 you don't half to be rude and an entire broadside of AP will not destroy a destroyer if you only have 8 guns most are over pens. At the ranges they become spotted in a battleships forwards tactics you don't get a second chance.  The big reason asking for this change is that there is problems with lower tier player base they are not playing their ships right and i half to keep going into carry mode. Something has to be done about destroyers cause now they are even harder to kill at lower tiers for battleships when the cruisers and DDs drop the ball.  Hell your an alpha tester test the dam thing you will find i'm right ive come to this from grinding for 2 months at tier 5 and 6

First off wasn't being rude.. was being realistic, and honest. Sorry if that hurts delicate sensibilities these days.

Secondly, re-read the part where it'd take 2 volleys to finish off the DD *IF* you can aim accurately.

I've yet to 'feel' the AP change against DD's which alot of peeps have complained about. I'll hit em with whatever's loaded first, and then switch if I think I need to.

By all means though, expand on the 'battleships forward tactics' as that has me reaaaaally curious now.

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@Prothall i would rather not nerf destroyers if anything buff lower tier battleship secondaries or the HE shells on primary guns against destroyers or allow destroyers who are already spotted by current mechanics to remain spotted a little longer its freaking annoying when they go unspotted within 10 km and you are right about better tutorials another problem is these younger players are watching streamers play clan wars and they are trying tier 10 tatics at lower tiers and it dont work the guns are not nearly as accurate at long range the ships are too sluggish to do the island armor thing

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1 hour ago, axlzero said:

and with the AP Nerf on battleships

BB had AP nerf'ed ??? News to me... I've seen the BB AP changes did more harm DMG wise, I disagree with your assessment. Even IF a cruiser is bow on to a BB, a BB will easily do 8k DMG which is 1/5 of a cruiser's heath pool.

 

1 hour ago, axlzero said:

HE shells do not pack enough smack to take them down and the switching between shell types is a problem you fire your AP at them and do nothing switch over to HE for the next volley and then they disappear cause they are too stealthy then you switch back to ap and they reappear and now your ineffective AP is loaded. 

^^^^^ This is poor judgment on the part of the player.. No nerf to DDs will fix this. I haven't had an issue you described As Long As I Plan Ahead Of Time Which Ammo TO Use. 

1 hour ago, axlzero said:

Your secondaries don't have the range or the potency to sink the destroyers witch for most battleships that is their main purpose. basically cry baby destroyer players have made is so they have an unfair advantage against battleships

^^^^^^Oh Boy they're a couple of BBs with strong secondaries feel hurt and betrayed by this comment.

Now lets answer your proposals

  1.  Cpt skill Vigilance along with your spotter plan, should give you more then enough warning of Torps... IF you need to know the DDs torp Launcher number to dodge them, then its you not them 
  2. A 12 KM detection range for DDs ? They already have that, a DD fires off his guns.. HE is spotted (breifly)his Det range is the range of his main guns.
  3. Assured Target Acquisition upgrade increases Assured detection of ships from 2km to 3km even in smoke. It also helps spot torps.
  4. Brit HE is already the most potent armament in every tier. Plus you dont need  fires to sink a DD in a BB.... With two clean salvos a close range, DDs are sunk.
1 hour ago, axlzero said:

I'm not too sure how dds do at higher tiers play but these changes would help a lot on lower tier battleships especially the ones without spotter planes sonar and radar

IF you love BBs and the feeling of OP in your class, then tier 8-10 is the tier for you. Hands Down!

Edited by Navalpride33

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@J30_Reinhardt battleships forwards is something im working on battleships with lots of secondaries and good range 6KM and better.  They form a forwards group with cruisers behind or mixed in as support most of the time a destroyer out in front for spotting this works if you can identify and take out enemy destroyers immediately. Cause everyone is moving in a formation AA cover is excellent via mutual cover.  As it currently happens you have seen it battleships trying to hit stuff at 20+km away and missing 90% of the shots.  Cruisers getting knocked out by enemy battleships and destroyers cause they are too busy trying to cook down battleships on the enemy team.  Teams fold too fast what i wanna do is teach players to attack and work together as one strong fist.  The battleships on point taking the abuse cruiser providing rapid fire to protect flanks and keep the destroyers away or sink them.  While they are saying oh crapto this assault a team of destroyers perform ambush and harassment tactics or harass the other flank.  In this game everyone is spread all over teams that form up this striking power dominate but it has flaws.  I see a lot of time players turn chicken and run at first contact this causes the fist to fall apart battleships stop at first contact and revert to sniping cause they are afraid to scratch their paint.  As long as a team hold together and battleships are in the front leading the way and menacing the enemy to the point were were they got a choice fire on the BBs or die this is very effective. 

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3 minutes ago, axlzero said:

@J30_Reinhardt battleships forwards is something im working on battleships with lots of secondaries and good range 6KM and better.  They form a forwards group with cruisers behind or mixed in as support most of the time a destroyer out in front for spotting this works if you can identify and take out enemy destroyers immediately. Cause everyone is moving in a formation AA cover is excellent via mutual cover.  As it currently happens you have seen it battleships trying to hit stuff at 20+km away and missing 90% of the shots.  Cruisers getting knocked out by enemy battleships and destroyers cause they are too busy trying to cook down battleships on the enemy team.  Teams fold too fast what i wanna do is teach players to attack and work together as one strong fist.  The battleships on point taking the abuse cruiser providing rapid fire to protect flanks and keep the destroyers away or sink them.  While they are saying oh crapto this assault a team of destroyers perform ambush and harassment tactics or harass the other flank.  In this game everyone is spread all over teams that form up this striking power dominate but it has flaws.  I see a lot of time players turn chicken and run at first contact this causes the fist to fall apart battleships stop at first contact and revert to sniping cause they are afraid to scratch their paint.  As long as a team hold together and battleships are in the front leading the way and menacing the enemy to the point were were they got a choice fire on the BBs or die this is very effective. 

I have no words.

Actually, I do. First, It's alot easier to click the quote button than it is to type the @ symbol followed by a user name. It gives the same notification that you have replied directly either way.

What you are describing is a target priority issue. Damage farming vs trying to win, essentially. There are few solutions to that, and increasing the ability for a BB to nuke a DD isn't it... as you're now complaining about cruiser play. Which is it now, what EXACTLY are you complaining about other than a bunch of rando's not knowing how to win or play as a team?

This is why I'm grinding ships in co-op, and refuse to do randoms. Especially high tiers. If I want to be competitive, it's in clan wars. Ranked isn't even close to as cohesive, far more toxic than randoms, and the rewards don't interest me. Steel for ranked? Not worth the blood pressure spikes.

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15 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

BB had AP nerf'ed ??? News to me... I've seen the BB AP changes did more harm DMG wise, I disagree with your assessment. Even IF a cruiser is bow on to a BB, a BB will easily do 8k DMG which is 1/5 of a cruiser's heath pool.

umm AP was nerfed against destroyers  not cruisers cruiser are fine cause they got citadels destroyers dont its now a pain in the [edited]for lower tier battleships to deal with destroyers 

^^^^^ This is poor judgment on the part of the player.. No nerf to DDs will fix this. I haven't had an issue you described As Long As I Plan Ahead Of Time Which Ammo TO Use. 

you ever switch ammo on a battleship a DD is spotted you fire off you ap at it then reload He to shoot a DD again then the dam thing disappears now you got HE loaded and you need to shoot a different ship you shoot that then reload ap to take on the other ship and boom the DD re spawns and now your back to square 1 secondaries open up but they suck against the DD and now you got torps bearing down on you you dont see them but you know there coming so you turn and evade bit its too late he too close you you crapdont turn on a dime

^^^^^^Oh Boy they're a couple of BBs with strong secondaries feel hurt and betrayed by this comment. 

not all of them are and some have [edited] range at tier 5 secondaries should have at least a 6 km range

Now lets answer your proposals

  1.  Cpt skill Vigilance along with your spotter plan, should give you more then enough warning of Torps... IF you need to know the DDs torp Launcher number to dodge them, then its you not them A. not all lower tier BBs have spotter planes and destroyers dont appear til they are danger close
  2. A 12 KM detection range for DDs ? They already have that, a DD fires off his guns.. HE is spotted (breifly)his Det range is the range of his main guns. A. im not saying change the current spotting mechanics just after they been spotted allow them to stay spotted longer if they are within 12km after they leave 12km they go unspotted 
  3. Assured Target Acquisition upgrade increases Assured detection of ships from 2km to 3km even in smoke. It also helps spot torps. A. not availible on lower tier ships this hole post is about tiers lower then 8
  4. Brit HE is already the most potent armament in every tier. Plus you dont need  fires to sink a DD in a BB.... With two clean salvos a close range, DDs are sunk. A. when i DD shows up at close range there is not time for a second salvo and what about the rest of the other nations? also who said anything about fire i just need to do damage and destroyes without a citadel and thin armor ap is worthless and a lot of he that should pen and do huge damage dont against DDs

IF you love BBs and the feeling of OP in your class, then tier 8-10 is the tier for you. Hands Down! .A you got to get there first

 

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8 minutes ago, axlzero said:

A. im not saying change the current spotting mechanics just after they been spotted allow them to stay spotted longer if they are within 12km after they leave 12km they go unspotted 

A. not availible on lower tier ships this hole post is about tiers lower then 8.

So... even at tier.. I forget which...

A1. Spotter plane is NOT for spotting close-in targets. It's to increase your gun range. The AIR detection range for DD's is WORSE than surface ACROSS THE ENTIRETY OF THE DD'S.(sorry for caps but it appears you're mistaken about.. alot of stuff)

A2 . Most of the destroyers have a torp range of far below 12km in the mid-tiers. You'll only venture into that in 8-10 IIRC.

A3. Vigiliance is available at ANY tier, different from the upgrade. It's a choice you have to make for captain skills. Do I do THIS thing here or do I go for more torp spotting range since I'm in a fat tub and don't know how to dodge?

A4. If you're that damn close to a DD you planned/played poorly. I don't mean to be rude as you mentioned early but at this point I *will* be blunt. That's on you. You didn't anticipate where he was going relative to you on the minimap, regardless of if he was spotted or not. Nose-in is to the DD or at least his last known location is the easiest way to dodge or at least soak DD torps. CHANGE DIRECTION OFTEN. Hell, spend a point on a captain skill to see if you're detected(there's shenanigans involved with that). If he rounded a corner of an island and was in your face you were too close to said island. That's the only way I know of that a DD will instantly appear right next to you where you can't do ANYTHING, your turrets are too slow, etc etc, which guess what? It's the same issue for cruisers with torps. Quite a few tubs in clan wars have died due to my 6km Hindenburg torps, and opposing cruisers have as well. I nuked a full health Montana through a pair of islands with a full set of rental zao torps. I died to his broadside after the torps were off. He wasn't happy. Them was 12km torps but I was well within his secondary range. I could've thrown a wrench at him.

A5. What you're experiencing IMO is a lack of captain points for a given tier. And a lack of knowing how to actually counter a DD, and also how the meta/gameplay normally works. IF you think that BB's whould be in front especially, you are actually just yoloing to death and then blaming your team.

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2 hours ago, axlzero said:

Ive been playing at lower tiers 5,6,7 and lets face it cruisers are not doing their primary jobs hunting down destroyers they are too busy farming fire damage on battleships.  Destroyers are being ignored by them and with the AP Nerf on battleships HE shells do not pack enough smack to take them down and the switching between shell types is a problem you fire your AP at them and do nothing switch over to HE for the next volley and then they disappear cause they are too stealthy then you switch back to ap and they reappear and now your ineffective AP is loaded.  Your secondaries don't have the range or the potency to sink the destroyers witch for most battleships that is their main purpose. basically cry baby destroyer players have made is so they have an unfair advantage against battleships

i propose the following changes to destroyers and battleships for consideration 

1.  Visible Destroyers if they fire their torpedoes off they are visible from the time of launch.  (cause if you can see the ship you can see the people firing the torpedo on the ships.)

2.  Once a destroyer has been spotted it remains spotted til it goes into smoke screen or or goes outside of 12 km (to keep the them lit the battleships fire star shells from secondaries)

3. if you close to within 3 km of a smoke screen you can see the ships in it and only you (this way your secondaries can open up) or your secondary batteries open up and rake the smoke screen if they set the ship on fire it automatically spots the ships in the smoke screen

4.  Battleship HE is made more effective against destroyers (if you fire an entire broadside of battleship HE against a destroyer and more then 4 of them hit it should destroy the ship and most of the time it isn't)

I'm not too sure how dds do at higher tiers play but these changes would help a lot on lower tier battleships especially the ones without spotter planes sonar and radar 

1. So completely gut the concealment system and pretty much screw every single destroyer in the game? Shafts every Destroyer so much I don't even know where to begin. You might as well make destroyers visible just for using WASD.

2. So perma radar?

3. You can already do that. There is a module for that. Plus hydro...and radar.

4. If 4 HE shells from a BB hit you you're going to be crippled if not nearly dead for the rest of the match anyways. If RNG really hates you it'll break your engine, destroy a torp tube and disable 2 guns.

Tier 5 DD has to deal with scary things like De Grasse and Dallas. Tier 6 DD have to deal with Radar from Indianapolis, Belfast, Flint, Atlanta... hydro from CA/CL other scary things with hydro like creeping Haida,  z-39... Kaga and Saipans if you're reallly really unlucky. Tier 7 DD have even more scary things to watch out for since they can see up to tier 9. Life for a tier 5-7 DD isn't exactly comfy as it is.

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I'll just summarize what everyone said and what I think about this also:

 

Hells to the no.

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What the bloody...?

 

Ok, first, let's face facts. You don't play DDs much, and the ones you do play, you don't do much damage in. What this tells me is this: You don't understand how to play DDs. Not even remotely. Since you don't really play them, and you don't understand them, you have no real idea of how to fight against them.

 

So, in a nutshell, the problem isn't DDs, or how BBs fight against them, the problem is you. I know, it's blunt, however, I find that the honest truth is better than candy coating things. My suggestion is this: Stop playing BBs, and focus on DDs. Play nothing, not one thing, that isn't a DD for the next two weeks. Two weeks, nothing but DDs. Find people to division with, good players, not just anyone, and learn from them. It's what I did, and it totally changed the game for me. Listen to them as they play, spectate them if you go down before they do, and have them spectate you if you last longer than they do. Join a clan, and have people to play with and learn from all the time.

 

Things will change for you, even if you don't do well at first. See, in order to effectively fight against a class, you have to play the class in question. Personally, I even play CVs, so that I can understand how to mitigate what they can do to me, and for me. Instead of calling for increased, not needed by a long shot, nerfs, put it on yourself to increase your understanding and skill.

 

I'll even put my money where my mouth is, and offer my own time to help you learn, and I'm not the only one on the forums who'll do this. Teaching players means better, more competitive rounds, less steamrolls, and more importantly, less threads like this on the forums.

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So, let me get this right ... Destroyers are OP because Cruisers are not doing their job. Is that about the gist of it? Destroyers are at fault because Cruisers aren't doing what you say they're supposed to. Is that the logic we're going with here?

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5 hours ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

 

Things will change for you, even if you don't do well at first. See, in order to effectively fight against a class, you have to play the class in question. Personally, I even play CVs, so that I can understand how to mitigate what they can do to me, and for me. Instead of calling for increased, not needed by a long shot, nerfs, put it on yourself to increase your understanding and skill.

Need more players like you.

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Battleship player calling a destroyer player a crybaby.  That's rich. 

Cruisers would be able to do their job better if BB players were smarter.  All they want to do is pop cruisers, which means the cruisers can't move forward to kill DDs.  If you BBs want cruisers to kill DDs, make their battleships move back so your cruisers can move forward.  Here's a hint:  Their battleships aren't going to move back when you are shooting at cruisers exclusively.

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13 hours ago, SteeLeviathan said:

:cap_popcorn:Well this is going to be interesting.

Yep, just like the 300 times it's come up before when everyone who's played the game for longer than 5 minutes goes "How about NO you crazy noob". Classic stuff.

 

:cap_popcorn:

Edited by Harathan

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13 hours ago, axlzero said:

Ive been playing at lower tiers 5,6,7 and lets face it cruisers are not doing their primary jobs hunting down destroyers they are too busy farming fire damage on battleships.  Destroyers are being ignored by them and with the AP Nerf on battleships HE shells do not pack enough smack to take them down and the switching between shell types is a problem you fire your AP at them and do nothing switch over to HE for the next volley and then they disappear cause they are too stealthy then you switch back to ap and they reappear and now your ineffective AP is loaded.  Your secondaries don't have the range or the potency to sink the destroyers witch for most battleships that is their main purpose. basically cry baby destroyer players have made is so they have an unfair advantage against battleships

i propose the following changes to destroyers and battleships for consideration 

1.  Visible Destroyers if they fire their torpedoes off they are visible from the time of launch.  (cause if you can see the ship you can see the people firing the torpedo on the ships.)

2.  Once a destroyer has been spotted it remains spotted til it goes into smoke screen or or goes outside of 12 km (to keep the them lit the battleships fire star shells from secondaries)

3. if you close to within 3 km of a smoke screen you can see the ships in it and only you (this way your secondaries can open up) or your secondary batteries open up and rake the smoke screen if they set the ship on fire it automatically spots the ships in the smoke screen

4.  Battleship HE is made more effective against destroyers (if you fire an entire broadside of battleship HE against a destroyer and more then 4 of them hit it should destroy the ship and most of the time it isn't)

I'm not too sure how dds do at higher tiers play but these changes would help a lot on lower tier battleships especially the ones without spotter planes sonar and radar 

Or you could just move you BB forward with the cruisers.  Then no nerf is needed to anyone, and no spotting changes are needed. Problem solved.

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12 hours ago, Prothall said:

oh

my

god.

So let's see here....cruisers are not doing their job, so nerf DDs.

I think it would be better if Wargaming had better tutorials available to players so they can git gud.

I don't know how many times I have seen a German cruiser run away from a dd in a smoke screen.

The player has no clue about the power of his hydro and how to use it.

I don't know how many times I see ANY cruiser turn and flee from a smoke screen rather than pop hydro and charge.

That is NOT the DDs fault and nerfing them is not the answer.

The player base skill level is steadily deteriorating . It has gotten to the point where players around since beta are constantly salty because of seeing the same mistakes for over 3 years.

 

Educating the players is your answer.

Not the nerf bat.

Just popping hydro and charging smoke is NOT always a good idea.  It's not even a good rule of thumb.  Why?  Because once the cruiser is spotted he is going to get bombed by every ship in range.  Probably take 1 or 2 major hits from a BB and then, if still alive, get wrecked by a hailstorm of shells from  the other teams CA's, CLs and DDs.  Maybe the cruiser will get lucky  and get the DD before he dies.   But even if he doesn't die, he's likely to take so much damage that the rest of the game will be spent sniping from behind islands and any hope for aggressive play will be lost. 

Sure, a yoloing DD on the flank is a prime target for popping hydro and charging but that is a specific situation.  To just say that popping hydro and charging is the way to handle smoked up DD's is far too simplistic.  Like the rest of the game it's all dependent upon what the situation is.  How much support do you have?  Are friendly BBs and DDs and CA/CLs going with you?  Is the smoked up DD backed up with strong support?  Can your team afford to have you sacrifice yo9ur cruiser on the chance that you *might* get that DD?  What kind of guns do you have?  Rapid firing 150-somethings or slower firing 203s?  Etc, etc, etc...

 

Please don't tell cruiser players that they should just "pop hydro and charge".

Edited by Malamute_Kid

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