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SkeletonDenial

are DDs OP?

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Spotting, area denial and cap contesting can win games. So if one team has a better ability to do all 3 of those, their chances go way up. 

Absolutely target dds and kill them first. I have atrocious damage in CVS, but a great win rate. I focus on trying to kill the enemy dds or keep them spotted for my team as well as keep the enemy cv from doing the same to my dds. I want to give the team the best chance I can to win. 

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The team with good DDs in the late game has a huge advantage.  Unless there are a couple of good radar cruisers on the other team.  Ofc, they could be out of radars at that point.  So it's tricky

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players that play them well will usually win the match.  DD players, on top of keeping your head on a swivel have to keep track of so much information on an ongoing bases....its why many fail. In the end, skill>ship. But I guess there is a strong argument for a highly skilled dd player, could be more OP than the same skilled CA/BB player... but that is a debate that I shall not partake.

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OP is not the correct term, most influential is more accurate. The team with the better DD players will almost always win the match. The destroyers who play the objective, spot for their team, and work with their support to cap.

Yesterday in a game I had one DD on our team out on the J line launching torpedoes on a Colorado for 3/4 of the game before he finally sunk him. Another was on the 10 line firing from max range in smoke relying on the team to spot for him. How do you think that game worked out.

Had another game where a guy in a Akasuki refused to push into an objective because there was a Gadja Madja there even though he had me in a Scharnhorst and a Bismark telling him we will push in with him and support him with hydro and spotter aircraft. Instead he hung in the back, hit hid in smoke and fired uselessly unto the enemy DD's smoke. He finished second to last and out team got crushed.You can win matches with bad BB players, it is next to impossible to win with bad DD players. 

I will take a team with 3 unicum DD players and 5 potato BB players over a team with 5 unicum BB players and three potato DD players EVERY time. 

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DD's have an outsized influence on the game. They provide eyes, cap and are the bane of BB's. It's a reason why DD's are typically are priority target. It's also the reason why the side with a DD advantage in the late phase wins.

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Just now, Abides said:

players that play them well will usually win the match.

You're basing that on what?  I think this is something that is repeated all the time but no one really knows if its true.  Take this example and weight it against this what you believe.  Unicum players that play all ships types have, more or less, the same high win rate in all ship types.  That says its the player, not the ship.  The reality is more than half of all DDs are dead in the first few minutes of the match.  All they are contributing is helping their team lose.  So yeah, good DD players can help win the game, so can a good BB player or cruiser player.

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I wouldn't say every time, but it certainly plays a role, similarly to how more radar ships can have a bigger impact on the early phases of a battle when caps are contested.

With the way the current meta works patience, radar avoidance and HP preservation can be more important late game than just numbers DD wise. Had quite  a lot of battles lately where the HP I had conserved by not being overly aggressive early-mid game paid off late game when I could spare the HP to tackle multiple DDs that had used up all their strength beforehand.

Edited by warheart1992

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20 minutes ago, Abides said:

. In the end, skill>ship. 

 

7 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

You're basing that on what?  I think this is something that is repeated all the time but no one really knows if its true.  Take this example and weight it against this what you believe.  Unicum players that play all ships types have, more or less, the same high win rate in all ship types.  That says its the player, not the ship.  The reality is more than half of all DDs are dead in the first few minutes of the match.  All they are contributing is helping their team lose.  So yeah, good DD players can help win the game, so can a good BB player or cruiser player.

For the sake of padding your own post count, just read... ffs... I said what you are arguing.

Edited by Abides
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OP is the wrong word here since, as everyone knows, the class as a whole has a low average win rate.  I’d say DDs are over-influential. That is to say good players help the team and bad players hurt the team more than the same player would if they were driving a BB. The rewards from good play are high and the cost of a mis-play is rapid and final. 

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10 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

You're basing that on what?  I think this is something that is repeated all the time but no one really knows if its true.  Take this example and weight it against this what you believe.  Unicum players that play all ships types have, more or less, the same high win rate in all ship types.  That says its the player, not the ship.  The reality is more than half of all DDs are dead in the first few minutes of the match.  All they are contributing is helping their team lose.  So yeah, good DD players can help win the game, so can a good BB player or cruiser player.

I would argue that late game the superior stealth and speed of DDs can help them carry battles in different manners than Cruisers and BB. A 1HP DD correctly played can counter a full HP BB or Cruiser without radar just by capping points and always keeping ahead. You wouldn't be able to do such a thing in a Cruiser or BB.

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I do believe that well played DDs has a larger effect on W/L than CA/CL/BB.  They are faster... better able to provide vision, and capping.  Their stealth and speed allows good players to react better & faster to situations in game.   But that is mostly in the current CV absent environment.   I think truthfully CVs can do all that better than a DD with the exception of capping?      I think it has been noted many times here that both CVs and DDs as a class have the most disparity in Skill gap and show it by being more varied in win ratios between the best players and worst players.     I think a really great player in a DD has a higher probability of carrying a match than a similar player in a cruiser or battleship.   I  know in a ranked battle, i'll take the best DD player on my team every single time, unless there will be CVs involved... then the Meta changes a lot.     A UNI in a CV will trump a UNI in a DD virtually every time.    

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25 minutes ago, UssIowaSailor said:

Had another game where a guy in a Akasuki refused to push into an objective because there was a Gadja Madja there even though he had me in a Scharnhorst and a Bismark telling him we will push in with him and support him with hydro and spotter aircraft. Instead he hung in the back, hit hid in smoke and fired uselessly unto the enemy DD's smoke. He finished second to last and out team got crushed.

You did the right thing.  I have to say when I am in a Akatsuki against any gun DD my first instinct is to run away also.  The guns just do not fire on that ship unless you are standing still and I can never expect any support as BB's and CA's as they are usually the first to give up a position and turn away leaving me stuck in an undefendable position.  HOWEVER if I get a commitment from the team I would do as asked.  What is the worst that can happen, I get killed?  It is only a game, you have to take people at their word.

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Just now, Abides said:

For the sake of padding your own post count, just read... ffs... I said what you are arguing.

Sorry, I didn't intend make it sound like I was countering your point, I was actually agreeing with you.  I was just sort spring boarding off of your post.  I didn't make that clear.  Sorry.

Just now, warheart1992 said:

I would argue that late game the superior stealth and speed of DDs can help them carry battles in different manners than Cruisers and BB. A 1HP DD correctly played can counter a full HP BB or Cruiser without radar just by capping points and always keeping ahead. You wouldn't be able to do such a thing in a Cruiser or BB.

A counter point would be that DDs don't have reliable firepower to help pull out a win.  If you need firepower to win, you don't really want a DD, you want a BB or high RoF cruiser.  That is especially if its a 1 HP DD.  Sure, the spotting can be helpful, but its no good without the ability to sink ships before they sink you.  In other words, spotting is only as good as the ability of the other ships that take advantage of that spotting.  As a DD player, I tell people its not spotting that win games, its you shooting at what I spot that wins games. :cap_like:

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As has already been stated, DDs are heavily influential but they're not OP. A DD on its own is going to sink just about as quickly as anything else. This isn't always the case as your role depends on which specific ship you're driving and what the current tactical situation is, but generally speaking:

  • A DD needs to spot, contest caps and perform area control.
  • A CA/CL needs to support their friendly DDs by targetting enemy DDs and ships that are a threat to friendly DDs.
  • A BB needs to support CA/CL's so that they don't get deleted while doing their jobs.
  • A CV needs to support whoever is contributing the most.

That last line is liable to be a controversial opinion. If the DDs aren't doing their jobs, you're much more likely to lose than win. If the cruisers aren't supporting your DDs, they can't do their jobs and you're more likely to lose than win. If the BB's aren't doing their jobs...etc. It's a chain and any weak link can cause the collapse of your team. DDs are just the tip of the spear, the end of that chain.

 

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Yes in the sense that the first team to lose all its DDs does usually lose the game, but it does sorta depend on how many BB babies you got and if they have any sense in avoiding torpedoes as well.    If the last DD in the game can't land any torps, he's not doing all that much by that point in the game.

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9 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

A counter point would be that DDs don't have reliable firepower to help pull out a win.  If you need firepower to win, you don't really want a DD, you want a BB or high RoF cruiser.  That is especially if its a 1 HP DD.  Sure, the spotting can be helpful, but its no good without the ability to sink ships before they sink you.  In other words, spotting is only as good as the ability of the other ships that take advantage of that spotting.  As a DD player, I tell people its not spotting that win games, its you shooting at what I spot that wins games. :cap_like:

Of course, I'm just mentioning an alternate way in which DDs can carry. 

Vision control is of paramount importance in the game; DDs are at the top when it comes to this and this lets them get away with lots of things.

Not necessarily OP or broken, just different.

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32 minutes ago, Abides said:

 

For the sake of padding your own post count, just read... ffs... I said what you are arguing.

and that wasn't padding?

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They arent OP. Though I would venture to say of all the ship classes (maybe excluding current cv) they have the highest skill ceiling by far. A good dd will execute the enemy dd and completely control caps and terrorize enemy bbs

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1 hour ago, SkeletonDenial said:

Meaning, should it always be that the first team to lose their DDs. lose the battle nearly every time?

Yes, merely because most random teams will not demonstrate the teamwork needed to recuperate advantage.

But DDs are not OP.  Your title and question are wholly different.

Edited by PhosphorusForFun

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1 hour ago, SkeletonDenial said:

Meaning, should it always be that the first team to lose their DDs. lose the battle nearly every time? 

Using this logic... In higher tiers (tier 8 and above), DDs can disappear and the fleet can still win. HOWEVER, usually the first fleet to lose their BBs or BB who sink the cruisers first, will won.

Cruisers who DD hunt can recover from a DD deficit at first. I say IMO, when you lose the big guns  BBs who are already OP, There is no recovery.

So no, DDs are not OP.  BBs on the other hand... GL lol

Edited by Navalpride33

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I believe that DD's are op as are BB, CA, and CV's in the right players hands, other than that not at all

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5 minutes ago, Nukelavee45 said:

and that wasn't padding?

I like cheeseburgers.

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