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Ace_04

Massachusetts vs. Kurfurst Secondary Build

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Ahoy fellow shipmates!

I've been sitting on Massachusetts and Massachusetts B in port for a little while now after winning them in Santa crates back in December.  Decided to pull them out and play them to grind out credits (and snowflakes/steel) for the 4 million credit directive.  For the first time ever, I put Halsey in them and did the meme-tastic full secondary build, just for giggles.  Considering I've never tried it before, man that's a fun build, even if it may not be the most optimal.

It got me thinking, though.  With my 19 point commander on GK, would that ship be just as fun with a full secondary build?  I'd think it would be, considering how much tankier GK is, but can this be confirmed?  I currently run GK as a hybrid survival/soft secondary build now, but don't get a ton of enjoyment out of it.  Looking to maybe spice things up a bit.

What do you guys think?

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I run my GK as a full meme secondary build. It isn't optimal, but it is fun. With IFHE it melts ships. Like I said it ain't optimal, you'll be handicapped.  It's worth it to me, but I have secondary builds on a lot of my BBs. I'm looking to have some fun and this sure does check that box. Can't wait to get the legendary upgrade

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I tried a few different builds on my GK and this is what I found - in my subjective opinion

1. Full Survival - just play the Montana

2. Mix of Survival and Secondaries it doesn't do either side well enough with only 19 points

3. Full secondary memery - legitimately the most fun to play this ship. Is it viable for CW, not exactly, but it has created some of the most fun random matches I have had. If you like playing your Mass full secondary, you will love full secondary GK. 

GK Build.PNG

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I have both and recently re-specked my GK captain away from a full secondary build.

While it is a fun build with the current camping meta it is just not very functional at T10. Still fun, just not very effective consistently due to the large amount of HE spamming.

Even BBs are spamming HE in the early parts of matches, you will burn a lot in the GK.

On Massy, complete different story at least for me, as T8 players tend to be a little more mobile in their game play except when MM dumps them into a T10 dominant game.

So at some point you are able to get into the range to use those wonderful secondaries more often and usually with some level of support.

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4 minutes ago, LCPL4ever said:

I run my GK as a full meme secondary build. It isn't optimal, but it is fun. With IFHE it melts ships. Like I said it ain't optimal, you'll be handicapped.  It's worth it to me, but I have secondary builds on a lot of my BBs. I'm looking to have some fun and this sure does check that box. Can't wait to get the legendary upgrade

Forgive my ignorance here, but what does the Legendary upgrade provide?

3 minutes ago, captain_dots said:

I tried a few different builds on my GK and this is what I found - in my subjective opinion

1. Full Survival - just play the Montana

2. Mix of Survival and Secondaries it doesn't do either side well enough with only 19 points

3. Full secondary memery - legitimately the most fun to play this ship. Is it viable for CW, not exactly, but it has created some of the most fun random matches I have had. If you like playing your Mass full secondary, you will love full secondary GK. 

GK Build.PNG

I don't partake in Clan Wars right now, as I don't really have the time (or interest) to invest into it.  So any GK build for me will be solely for Random gameplay.  And after seeing Jingles' recent video of the GK pulling a Kraken with secondary kills alone, it looks like oodles of silly fun.

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Legendary upgrade increases main battery reload, and secondary reload at the the expense of main battery range and traverse speed. It doesnt improve secondary reload as much as the dedicated module does (20% vs 15% with the legendary)

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GK Secondaries are very good.  Range, ROF, etc.  Not only that, both the 128mm and 150mm gun sets get the /4 HE Pens.  If you do IFHE Secondary Build, the Secondaries carve through people. 

The 128s require 32mm of armor to defeat them.  With IFHE, 42mm of armor is required to defeat them.  Unless the ship has a 50mm+ deck, IFHE GK Secondary shells that hit the deck will pen for reliable damage.  Even USN BBs with their above average Deck armor (about 38mm) will be Pen'ed by the 128s if IFHE is used.

 

However, IFHE Secondary Builds are extremely expensive to implement and will cost you in other critical areas dearly.

AFT & Manual Secondaries & IFHE = 12 pts.  You spend 6 pts just to get to Tier 4 traits.  That's 18 pts already and definitely no room for CE nor FP.

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21 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Ahoy fellow shipmates!

I've been sitting on Massachusetts and Massachusetts B in port for a little while now after winning them in Santa crates back in December.  Decided to pull them out and play them to grind out credits (and snowflakes/steel) for the 4 million credit directive.  For the first time ever, I put Halsey in them and did the meme-tastic full secondary build, just for giggles.  Considering I've never tried it before, man that's a fun build, even if it may not be the most optimal.

It got me thinking, though.  With my 19 point commander on GK, would that ship be just as fun with a full secondary build?  I'd think it would be, considering how much tankier GK is, but can this be confirmed?  I currently run GK as a hybrid survival/soft secondary build now, but don't get a ton of enjoyment out of it.  Looking to maybe spice things up a bit.

What do you guys think?

Confirmed,  super fun on both GK & Mass full secondary build.  It’s the only build I use in randoms.

Edited by shoy07

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6 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

GK Secondaries are very good.  Range, ROF, etc.  Not only that, both the 128mm and 150mm gun sets get the /4 HE Pens.  If you do IFHE Secondary Build, the Secondaries carve through people. 

The 128s require 32mm of armor to defeat them.  With IFHE, 42mm of armor is required to defeat them.  Unless the ship has a 50mm+ deck, IFHE GK Secondary shells that hit the deck will pen for reliable damage.  Even USN BBs with their above average Deck armor (about 38mm) will be Pen'ed by the 128s if IFHE is used.

 

However, IFHE Secondary Builds are extremely expensive to implement and will cost you in other critical areas dearly.

AFT & Manual Secondaries & IFHE = 12 pts.  You spend 6 pts just to get to Tier 4 traits.  That's 18 pts already and definitely no room for CE nor FP.

Youre not wrong that it's expensive, but he did indicate that this was for fun in randoms, rather than being competitively viable 

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I've been debating making a GK captain with CE, AFT, and FP. And the secondary range/dispersion module.

Having run various secondary builds on the GK before the lack of either CE or FP really hurts it. I quickly lose interest in continuing to play because of that - maybe a CE/AFT/FP build is what I will actually want.

Otherwise I just feel like I'm playing a bad version of the Montana every time I play the GK.

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Secondary build on Mass is a blast. Multiple CQEs are not out of the ordinary. I have 2, 19pt Captain builds on Mass and Mass B. Identical except for 1 has concealment skill and the other IFHE. I prefer the concealment Captain in randoms for the ability to go dark after rolling into the cap and abusing DDs then watching them scurry away from secondary range if they survive.

This weekend in one battle i had a CQE on a Shima, Tirp and Lexington. Would have had a Des Moines but the damn island was in the way. BTW, the Shima was almost full health and when he tried a torp run that failed.

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For S&Gs, you can check this out:

 

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From what I understand, Massachusetts has enhanced accuracy on her secondaries, so you'd not necessarily be getting the equivalent. That said, the Germans are often touted as the kings of secondaries for a reason, ignoring that there's now the French contending the title. Still, I feel that what makes her special is that her primary guns still feel good overall, where as the KM main armaments often feel lackluster.

Of course, I stopped at Bismarck and Lyon, so I'm no expert on the matter, but the point stands that they are hard to properly compare, especially considering tier difference. Now, if it were Bismarck vs Massachusetts, it'd be plainly obvious, but a T10 is a whole two tiers higher than her.

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2 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

From what I understand, Massachusetts has enhanced accuracy on her secondaries, so you'd not necessarily be getting the equivalent. That said, the Germans are often touted as the kings of secondaries for a reason, ignoring that there's now the French contending the title. Still, I feel that what makes her special is that her primary guns still feel good overall, where as the KM main armaments often feel lackluster.

Of course, I stopped at Bismarck and Lyon, so I'm no expert on the matter, but the point stands that they are hard to properly compare, especially considering tier difference. Now, if it were Bismarck vs Massachusetts, it'd be plainly obvious, but a T10 is a whole two tiers higher than her.

Mass has better accuracy as a tradeoff for having less and smaller secondaries. But with manual secondaries, it really just means that you will have an easier time hitting destroyers - it is truly delicious too. But it struggles to punch through a lot of other stuff. 

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3 minutes ago, captain_dots said:

Mass has better accuracy as a tradeoff for having less and smaller secondaries. But with manual secondaries, it really just means that you will have an easier time hitting destroyers - it is truly delicious too. But it struggles to punch through a lot of other stuff. 

That said, I'd love USS Wisconsin to enter the game with a Mass treatment. Div up with a Missouri and harvest salt.

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Just now, Wye_So_Serious said:

That said, I'd love USS Wisconsin to enter the game with a Mass treatment. Div up with a Missouri and harvest salt.

That would be fun!

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1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

Ahoy fellow shipmates!

I've been sitting on Massachusetts and Massachusetts B in port for a little while now after winning them in Santa crates back in December.  Decided to pull them out and play them to grind out credits (and snowflakes/steel) for the 4 million credit directive.  For the first time ever, I put Halsey in them and did the meme-tastic full secondary build, just for giggles.  Considering I've never tried it before, man that's a fun build, even if it may not be the most optimal.

It got me thinking, though.  With my 19 point commander on GK, would that ship be just as fun with a full secondary build?  I'd think it would be, considering how much tankier GK is, but can this be confirmed?  I currently run GK as a hybrid survival/soft secondary build now, but don't get a ton of enjoyment out of it.  Looking to maybe spice things up a bit.

What do you guys think?

I run a full meme build on my GK captain, that does not include CE or FP.  For the pure meme goodness, take Manual Secondaries, AFT and IFHE.  Taking IFHE lets all of your secondaries pen 32mm, which is honestly comical.  It's not necessarily the best or most efficient build you can run, but it's always good for a laugh.  

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I don't find the full secondary build working at t10, so I use a hybrid on GK myself. I keep those at t8 with Bis/Tirp and Mass

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2 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Ahoy fellow shipmates!

I've been sitting on Massachusetts and Massachusetts B in port for a little while now after winning them in Santa crates back in December.  Decided to pull them out and play them to grind out credits (and snowflakes/steel) for the 4 million credit directive.  For the first time ever, I put Halsey in them and did the meme-tastic full secondary build, just for giggles.  Considering I've never tried it before, man that's a fun build, even if it may not be the most optimal.

It got me thinking, though.  With my 19 point commander on GK, would that ship be just as fun with a full secondary build?  I'd think it would be, considering how much tankier GK is, but can this be confirmed?  I currently run GK as a hybrid survival/soft secondary build now, but don't get a ton of enjoyment out of it.  Looking to maybe spice things up a bit.

What do you guys think?

Fun factor is a 10 on the Kurfurst…. I like to wait for about 2-3 minutes before stormtrooping a cap. By then most dds have shot their first round of torps and then its scatter the roaches time... full speed into the cap... chase everyone out with secondarys blazing away...typically put cruisers in bad positions as they didn't expect your rush...meatsponge as long as you can....yes you will die... but very easy to take two with you, push everyone out of the cap and roll up 150k in 5 minutes.

Smart? probably not. Fun? you should be giggling the whole time.

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Long time ago, I was in an NC and on the flank of an enemy Kurfurst with a full IFHE secondarys build...granted I was new'ish and probably wasn't shooting where I should but he burned me to the ground without ever shooting big guns at me. It was interesting to say the least.

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I recommend using the survival build until you get the Legendary Module; and then it's time to rock and roll!!!

First, the Legendary Module gives a -15% reload to main and secondary guns and takes -7% turret traverse speed and reduces main battery range to 19.2km. This replaces the individual modules for main and secondary upgrades at 20% reload reduction each. Before you would have to choose, now you get both! Best of both worlds in my opinion! The turrets still turn fast enough that you won't need ExpM.

You still want the Aiming Systems mod as your main battery is too inaccurate and you still need them to cause damage. 

Captain skills are PrvM, AdR, AFT, IFHE, Manual Secondary, SurvExp, I put the last point on a second spotter as it really helps with DDs. You don't really need BFT as the additional 10% off secondary reload as it only reduces it by a fraction. 

This enables you to be an all around tanking, destructive menace. The IFHE can do thousands of damage to DDs in short order as well as any other ship other than tier 10 BBs and heavy CAs. You won't start as many fires, but the amount of raw damage your secondaries inflict will more than make up for it. 

For strategy if your not in a div try to communicate your plan to be aggressive and hope you get the support you need.

The Legendary Upgrade is the saving Grace to the GK as with this style build I've been able to have fun and inflict huge damage numbers. The gun range does suck and it's frustrating to be incapable of shooting back at BBs picking you off from long range, but plan your route and just avenge yourself close in. 

Again, this build is only for the Legendary Module which is very rewarding for the grind. Otherwise continue with a full survival build until you get it. Any questions or comments let me know and hope this helps!

PS: Like OP said you can bully a cap and really turn the tide. Your chances of survival will improve as DDs will generally avoid you once they've had a few seconds of secondary hospitality! In the end this GK build gives you the cake and the icing too.

Edited by Ivan_Namirettov

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Secondary GK is rubbish in randoms, if you go part way it’s simply not worth it, and if you go full secondary you give us skills that result in your ship punished heavily if you do try to approach your effective secondary range in any way that matters.  Of course you can play it safe at stay at further engagement ranges until your opposition softens, but then your full secondary build will be wasted for most of match anyway, and your main guns will not be as effective.  

It does work real well in co-op, what what does not?

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Massachusetts is the only boat I've played that actually has somewhat accurate secondaries.  the rest have a lot of bark but no bite, no matter what skills you apply to them.  you're still better off going survivability build.

 

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2 hours ago, Sensai_Lawrence said:

Massachusetts is the only boat I've played that actually has somewhat accurate secondaries.  the rest have a lot of bark but no bite, no matter what skills you apply to them.  you're still better off going survivability build.

Of course a survivability build is the smartest choice, but the original question was based on if a GK full secondary build is as fun as a full secondary Massachusetts build.  Either one needs manual secondaries to be reliably accurate on the smaller guns.

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secondary build is only effective in mid to late stage of the game, getting too close to utilize your secondary in early stage mean everybody and their dogs and their dog's fleas are going to HE spammed you to death, there's also a huge BB population spamming HE as soon as they see German and French BB bow in within range.  I've found secondary build on GK NOT as much fun as Massachusetts due to the significant amount of HE spamming scrubs infested in Tier X game.

 

I found a tank build is even MORE fun for the GK due to the fact that i could survive longer while i plow through a group of BB and cruisers camping behind the island/cap, it helps to have another BB push in with you: 

 

Edited by Xcalib3r

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