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Gavroche_

Is Azuma going to be the counter to Stalingrad?

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Azuma is going to be a new tier X supercruiser coming to the game. Her distinguishing features are a large hit point pool, Zao armor, 310mm guns, and absolutely massive HE alpha.

Stalingrad is distinguished by her amazing AP and her 50mm plate. Bow in, she’s extremely difficult to deal with without an IFHE Henri IV, which can deal significant damage to Stalingrad after her superstructure is saturated.  

 

Currently, the Henri IV suffers from some serious flaws. Mainly:

Her dispersion is questionable

Her concealment is ‘suboptimal’ to put it nicely

She is vulnerable to other cruisers, specifically Zao.

Her DPM is lackluster, without IFHE

 

With the Azuma, she doesn’t need IFHE to penetrate 50mm plate. This pays out in fire chance and extra captain skills.

Azuma is much more stealthy than Henri allowing her to take position that Henri can’t, but more importantly it allows her to disengage faster than Henri.

Azuma is significantly tankier, with troll armor and a huge hit point pool

Azuma’s shell arcs are significantly better than Henri.

 

Now, Henri has the advantage of main battery reload booster, speed, and questionable torpedoes, yet, is the enough? As Flamu asks, will we see Henri being fazed out of clan battles? And the most alarming question, will we see a Steel ship being the most optimal counter to another steel ship?

 

I think that Henri has some advantages over Azuma, and I haven’t been able to test Azuma yet, but the initial stats seem to favor the new supercruiser. I am planning on acquiring her when she comes out, and I’ll give my impressions again then. Sorry for seeming alarmist if this is, but this is something I’ve been thinking about.

Edited by Gavroche_
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>henri dispersion suboptimal

 

H4 has the same dispersion curve and sigma as all the other T10 cruisers not named zao.

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Was reading thinking there would be some points Azuma has over Stalingrad...

Suddenly was reading about how bad the Henri IV is.

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Your forgetting Hindenburg doesn't nred IFHE to pen Stalingrad's 50mm plating;  and can do so reliably and at a higher shell velocity withoutany of HIV's vulnerability.

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Henri remains good at flanking and harassing ship. It has Zao HE damage but with better reload, the ability to HE pen 50mm armor (with IFHE) at the cost of less accuracy and lazy shells. With Henri you can still reposition really fast. On top of that, Henri has the ability to heavily punish broadside thanks to her MBRB.

 

The addition of Azuma will not necessarily make Henri irrelevant, it depends on your team composition and what you want to do but yes, Azuma is going to counter Stalingrad, the same way Henri and Hindy already do. However Azuma will not necessarily be a better Henri nor a better Hindy. 

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I doubt it.

The Henri has insane DPM. I'm averaging 117k and feel like I'm barely scratching the surface of what the ship is capable of in randoms.

Maybe the Azuma will be as easymode to get that much damage in, though I doubt it.

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24 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

I doubt it.

The Henri has insane DPM. I'm averaging 117k and feel like I'm barely scratching the surface of what the ship is capable of in randoms.

Maybe the Azuma will be as easymode to get that much damage in, though I doubt it.

Henri has comparable DPM to Azuma. She actually has worse long term DPM. Base, she has 9 shells at 4.88rpm for 3400dmg per shell, around 149,328 dmg per minute. Azuma does 9 shells at 3.33rpm for 5400dmg, leading to 161,838dpm. 

With MBRB Henri gets an extra salvo in for an extra 30k dmg, but either way I don’t think the difference is enough to overcome Azuma’s increased surviability.

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27 minutes ago, Gavroche_ said:

Henri has comparable DPM to Azuma. She actually has worse long term DPM. Base, she has 9 shells at 4.88rpm for 3400dmg per shell, around 149,328 dmg per minute. Azuma does 9 shells at 3.33rpm for 5400dmg, leading to 161,838dpm. 

With MBRB Henri gets an extra salvo in for an extra 30k dmg, but either way I don’t think the difference is enough to overcome Azuma’s increased surviability.

Yeah but I doubt Azuma can clock in at something like 45 knots. Henri's advantage is that absolutely ridiculous speed, and when you pair it with both rudder shift mods, this makes Henri insanely hard to actually land a hit on. I've dodged whole salvos from montana's in the thing at distances of less than 10 k. A well played Henri is just as difficult to hit at a distance as many destroyers, and she has the speed to run down any DD in the game short of Khabarovsk, but even the Khab has difficulty getting away from a Henri. None of the CB's in the game currently or up and coming can claim anywhere near that level of speed or maneuverability.

 

Now I dont remember Azuma's plating values but if she has Zao plating, which is 30 mm over the mid and 25 over the ends, yeah she will do OK against most battleships, but Republique and Yamato will be her bane, where as Henri can pretty comfortably make a Yamato or Republique's life hell by dodging every shot they throw at it while burning them to the waterline.

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8 hours ago, Gavroche_ said:

Henri has comparable DPM to Azuma. She actually has worse long term DPM. Base, she has 9 shells at 4.88rpm for 3400dmg per shell, around 149,328 dmg per minute. Azuma does 9 shells at 3.33rpm for 5400dmg, leading to 161,838dpm. 

With MBRB Henri gets an extra salvo in for an extra 30k dmg, but either way I don’t think the difference is enough to overcome Azuma’s increased surviability.

Ehhh, theoretical DPM sure.

Can Azuma put out a burst fire after an enemy uses DCP? Henri can basically:

  • Wait for a DCP and for it to run out
  • Pop reload booster
  • Set multiple perma fires

pretty reliably. Also, the Henri has pretty solid AP too. When you add in the absurd speed it has plus the better armor than the Azuma (lol) I think the difference in survivability will be smaller than you might think.

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41 minutes ago, Gerbertz said:

What is the consensus?

Go for Stalingrad now or wait for Azuma?

Wait for Azuma to be finalized and only then make a decision between the two ships. 

giphy.gif

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50 minutes ago, Gerbertz said:

What is the consensus?

Go for Stalingrad now or wait for Azuma?

You keep asking this.

Bourgogne (or wait and see). Spending a years worth of steel on a ship that is about to be nerfed/undergo massive changes amidst a CV rework, would be very silly, anyway.

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9 hours ago, enderland07 said:

I doubt it.

The Henri has insane DPM. I'm averaging 117k and feel like I'm barely scratching the surface of what the ship is capable of in randoms.

Maybe the Azuma will be as easymode to get that much damage in, though I doubt it.

Can confirm that the Henri is one hell of a farm bote.  

I've had games where I didn't think I was doing particularly well, to look up and see I have 120k damage already.  I think I'm averaging 140k in it, in about 30 battles.  

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3 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

You keep asking this.

Bourgogne (or wait and see). Spending a years worth of steel on a ship that is about to be nerfed/undergo massive changes amidst a CV rework, would be very silly, anyway.

You're right, I haven't forgotten about the Bourgogne...

Patience!

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A counter to Stalingrad isn't likely to be another Super Heavy Cruiser.  It's more likely to be something well protected/agile with good DPM.  Hey!  That sounds like Henri! 

Azuma doesn't really have the agility or DPM to counter Stalin effectively, IMHO.  A bow in Stalin isn't going to take much heavy AP damage, so HE DPM and fires are the way to deal with them when well positioned.

Henri is pretty underrated by the general population.  They look at it's base stats and think "ew, low concealment and a big target...must be squishy."  In reality, a well driven Henri at range is nearly impossible to punish, and can rain IFHE HE on you all day long.  Plus it can get in close and punish with AP bursts or torps when needed too.

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Maybe we'll need to wait and see what special tricks this theoretical ship brings to the table one day:

Capture.JPG

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13 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Maybe we'll need to wait and see what special tricks this theoretical ship brings to the table one day:

Capture.JPG

Wasn't that the test bed for reload booster Henri? I feel like i remember watching flamu play it before henri got MBRB

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21 minutes ago, Kingpin61 said:

Wasn't that the test bed for reload booster Henri? I feel like i remember watching flamu play it before henri got MBRB

Could've been.  I'm not aware if that was the case.

But then again, Bourgogne stayed in this idle state for some time before WG decided to do something with her.

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We did a Henri only match in CW this weekend. Was pretty funny. 

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one on one, Hindenburg and DM can out DPM and burn down a bow in Stalingrad/Krons, each time every time.   Unless those cruisers show their broadside otherwise Stalingrad doesn't stand a chance.

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4 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Maybe we'll need to wait and see what special tricks this theoretical ship brings to the table one day:

Capture.JPG

 

Berenus is just the old Henri with MBRB. I guess they needed another ship to try it and not put it directly on Henri to avoid having skewed stats / data.

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replay from 7.11 if you have the ability to have older clients on your pc this will showcase the true power of the Henri IV aka the hahahehe. somehow i dont think the azuma could do this! https://replayswows.com/replay/36548#stats

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people will believe azuma is better than henri just like people will believe the shima is a top choice for clan battles. The reason will remain the same. They cannot accept their Japanese waifus aren't as good as they think. Henri will not be fazed out by Azuma unless henri gets nerfed and azuma gets buffed.

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3 hours ago, Kebobstuzov said:

people will believe azuma is better than henri just like people will believe the shima is a top choice for clan battles. The reason will remain the same. They cannot accept their Japanese waifus aren't as good as they think. Henri will not be fazed out by Azuma unless henri gets nerfed and azuma gets buffed.

Even then I rather doubt it because Henri and Azuma dont really play the same Niche. Azuma being a large cruiser, is more of a cruiser sniper, with more tankiness but less maneuverability than a regular cruiser, Ie, her playstyle is closest to Stalingrad, Alaska, and Kronshdat. Henri is a ridiculously fast harassing ship, that is pretty good against everything, but not overwhelmingly specialized against one type like the Large cruisers. The CB's aren't so great against DD's, where as Henri can annihilate them and run them down as long as they have some spotting backup. But the two dont really fit the same roles. Buffing Azuma would threaten Stalingrad's Niche, not Henri's.

Edited by ryuukei8569

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