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deresistance

CV Rework flak?

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I been playing some CV reworking also watching farazelleth videos...     stupid question..    How do you dodge flak?     I know if i get close enough its just normal DPS, but if your out far enough in flak range I can't really tell how dangerous it is till I lose planes.   I do understand the cloud of black is bad when its hitting your squadron, but I feel like it will be away from me but I still lose lots of HP.    I just don't see a way to "dodge" it.    Or some partial counter play to it.     Notser mentioned it in his video a skilled player can deal with it.  

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You get an AA warning at flak range, it’s crap until you get loser. 

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17 minutes ago, deresistance said:

I been playing some CV reworking also watching farazelleth videos...     stupid question..    How do you dodge flak?     I know if i get close enough its just normal DPS, but if your out far enough in flak range I can't really tell how dangerous it is till I lose planes.   I do understand the cloud of black is bad when its hitting your squadron, but I feel like it will be away from me but I still lose lots of HP.    I just don't see a way to "dodge" it.    Or some partial counter play to it.     Notser mentioned it in his video a skilled player can deal with it.  

When you see black puffs, change course, left or right. Flak is predicative, if you fly in a straight line, for example, the AI will send up flal in advance of your course. So if you see XXXXX puffs of black cloud, immediately change direction. Swinging left and right in generous arcs as you approach an enemy ship, will generally make it easy to dodge most (but not all) enemy long range AA. At mid range, it gets much more difficult.

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4 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

When you see black puffs, change course, left or right. Flak is predicative, if you fly in a straight line, for example, the AI will send up flal in advance of your course. So if you see XXXXX puffs of black cloud, immediately change direction. Swinging left and right in generous arcs as you approach an enemy ship, will generally make it easy to dodge most (but all) enemy long range AA. At mid range, it gets much more difficult.

Awesome thanks LoveBote predictive helps a ton.  I honestly thought it was kinda random.   Time to go try it =)

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14 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

When you see black puffs, change course, left or right. Flak is predicative, if you fly in a straight line, for example, the AI will send up flal in advance of your course. So if you see XXXXX puffs of black cloud, immediately change direction. Swinging left and right in generous arcs as you approach an enemy ship, will generally make it easy to dodge most (but all) enemy long range AA. At mid range, it gets much more difficult.

Yep. The perfect defense for ships. When you change course the reticle swings stupidly far off course and the ship is safe.

I struggled with manual attacks in RTS, (but not the rest of the system,) and perhaps that’s at the root of the problem; but I’m not seeing how the new controls are ‘easier’ than RTS.

How much am I struggling you might ask?

I can’t seem to get hits with anything but rockets, and 10k damage is a ‘good’ game... 😑

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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1 minute ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Yep. The perfect defense for ships. When you change course the reticle swings stupidly far off course and the ship is safe.

I struggled with manual attacks in RTS, (but not the rest of the system,) and perhaps that’s at the root of the problem; but I’m not seeing how the new controls are ‘easier’ than RTS.

they are not, in that while the controls are simpler, dealing effective dmg is just as hard (if not harder, because of the nerf to CV alpha dps)/

edit : controls are easier to learn, (brainless possibly), but getting good results, will still take a good number of battles to learn all the tricks.

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10 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

they are not, in that while the controls are simpler, dealing effective dmg is just as hard (if not harder, because of the nerf to CV alpha dps)/

edit : controls are easier to learn, (brainless possibly), but getting good results, will still take a good number of battles to learn all the tricks.

Yeah, easy enough to figure out.

Such fun though, reading about players already racking up huge games, and being someone who is so bad with the ‘easier’ controls it’s like I just downloaded the game and jumped into Erie today.

Just what makes the game fun; having to go through the same struggle I went through three years ago all over again, just to learn how to use carriers the first time.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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25 minutes ago, deresistance said:

I been playing some CV reworking also watching farazelleth videos...     stupid question..    How do you dodge flak?     I know if i get close enough its just normal DPS, but if your out far enough in flak range I can't really tell how dangerous it is till I lose planes.   I do understand the cloud of black is bad when its hitting your squadron, but I feel like it will be away from me but I still lose lots of HP.    I just don't see a way to "dodge" it.    Or some partial counter play to it.     Notser mentioned it in his video a skilled player can deal with it.  

You pray - it's still an RNG based system. I've done wild zigzags that result in total losses before I even hit a target, while just powering in straight through had none, and vice versa.

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9 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Yeah, easy enough to figure out.

Such fun though, reading about players already racking up huge games, and being someone who is so bad with the ‘easier’ controls it’s like I just downloaded the game and jumped into Erie today.

Just what makes the game fun; having to go through the same struggle I went through three years ago all over again, just to learn how to use carriers the first time.

Been in the game a long time.  The old CV style isn't my bag.  But I stayed out of it especially at higher tiers because I was a drag on the team.   If a good CV main was on the enemy team, pretty much a loss for us.  This does give me a lot of excitement to play something new all over.  

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10 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Just what makes the game fun; having to go through the same struggle I went through three years ago all over again, just to learn how to use carriers the first time.

I understand this sentiment, I feel the same. But I can't change what is happening, so I am giving it a go, (though the rework argument/PR/hypocrisy has so disgusted me that I haven't played a game on Live for weeks)/

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17 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

I understand this sentiment, I feel the same. But I can't change what is happening, so I am giving it a go, (though the rework argument/PR/hypocrisy has so disgusted me that I haven't played a game on Live for weeks)/

I can only hope I can get things figured out in Co-op, I could at least have fun there using RTS, (because my weaknesses didn’t matter as much.)

Part of the reason for my dislike is I could be almost 100% certain of a win driving a carrier in Co-op, often in spite of the most mashed of potatoes teams.

Thanks to the Neegan-brand nerf-batting of carriers and the ‘easier’ controls, those ‘happy days’ will soon be gone.

’can’t change what’s happening...’

Of course not; all you can do is hope your worst expectations don’t come true and wind up destroying the game.

My middle ground expectation is that in 3-6 month carrier population will be right back to where is was, except carriers will  be next to useless except in the hands of a minority of experten.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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1 hour ago, deresistance said:

I been playing some CV reworking also watching farazelleth videos...     stupid question..    How do you dodge flak?     I know if i get close enough its just normal DPS, but if your out far enough in flak range I can't really tell how dangerous it is till I lose planes.   I do understand the cloud of black is bad when its hitting your squadron, but I feel like it will be away from me but I still lose lots of HP.    I just don't see a way to "dodge" it.    Or some partial counter play to it.     Notser mentioned it in his video a skilled player can deal with it.  

Changing speed can also help you avoid the black clouds of death. If you have the torped run lined up they you want use your boost control to slow down and then speed up you can throw off the predictive aim of the aa that way. 

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19 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Yep. The perfect defense for ships. When you change course the reticle swings stupidly far off course and the ship is safe.

I struggled with manual attacks in RTS, (but not the rest of the system,) and perhaps that’s at the root of the problem; but I’m not seeing how the new controls are ‘easier’ than RTS.

How much am I struggling you might ask?

I can’t seem to get hits with anything but rockets, and 10k damage is a ‘good’ game... 😑

Im starting to regularly pull in 100k games in randoms (usually only 2 or 3 non bots per team, 650 on server at 8am eastern) and have even managed to pick off a turning DD with US DB's. Unless the CV is the alpha dog in the match, often a lot of its damage total comes in garbage time (as they say in the NBA), AA is weaker and ships are spread out. Some things to consider....

Use your speed boost to get out of dodge once you've done your attack run. Dont use your speed boost on approach within 7-8km of a target, it enlarges your aim reticle and torp spread. Turn with your mouse when in the final approach, it wont affect your aim as much as your keyboard controls will (I think! Its hard to compare how much the aim circle enlarges, perhaps just wishful thinking on my part).  Dont be afraid to abandon your last attack run if your planes are smoking heavily, they likely wont survive the approach anyways. Dont drop your fighters over enemy ships.

It may seem like a good idea to launch rocket planes first to go after the DD's, but you'll be running your lightest aircraft into heavy AA. The cruisers will still be fairly close to the DD's when you get there since you can be on top of the caps in less than 1 minute if you use half your speed boost. TBers all the way, flush the DD's out of their smoke :)

1) Rockets: IJN rockets are easier to obtain hits (spray and pray, more rockets per volley but weaker) but only really good vs DD's, weak vs BB's, excellent vs Carriers. I tend to avoid cruisers with all planes :)

2) Torps: US torps are slow as slugs but 3 TBers (at T8) gives a good chance for hits, sometimes all 3!. IJN with 2 TB's means you will likely only get 1 hit. Flooding is rare vs bots, dont expect a lot of kills unless you are scavenging.

3) DBs: These are really tricky to use, hard to line up and drop slow as if on a parachute. US DB's seem to hit much harder and IJN gets AP bombs which seem to be very weak unless you get a citadel.

Fighters are crazy powerful, often downing an entire flight of planes in seconds.

Carrier AA is also crazy powerful. If you really want to help your fleet, try to stay within 6km of at least one BB.

At this point, Im thinking US carriers have the edge.

 

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33 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

I understand this sentiment, I feel the same. But I can't change what is happening, so I am giving it a go, (though the rework argument/PR/hypocrisy has so disgusted me that I haven't played a game on Live for weeks)/

Good for you. I hated the idea myself, although unlike you I like CV's, but am warming up to it. The two biggest benefits for the non CV players from the rework is that CV's cannot spot everywhere/anywhere at will and their ability to delete ships from full HP is gone.....unless they somehow make the same mistake AGAIN with the GZ!

Im really hoping they keep testing for another month, gather more stats. I'd also like to see the premium and UK CV's put onto the public test server before release time! Having access to the premium and UK CV's might bump up the PTS population :)

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Yup, USN planes are more robust and will most likely survived flak guns better than IJN planes. 

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5 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Im starting to regularly pull in 100k games in randoms (usually only 2 or 3 non bots per team, 650 on server at 8am eastern) and have even managed to pick off a turning DD with US DB's. Unless the CV is the alpha dog in the match, often a lot of its damage total comes in garbage time (as they say in the NBA), AA is weaker and ships are spread out. Some things to consider....

Use your speed boost to get out of dodge once you've done your attack run. Dont use your speed boost on approach within 7-8km of a target, it enlarges your aim reticle and torp spread. Turn with your mouse when in the final approach, it wont affect your aim as much as your keyboard controls will (I think! Its hard to compare how much the aim circle enlarges, perhaps just wishful thinking on my part).  Dont be afraid to abandon your last attack run if your planes are smoking heavily, they likely wont survive the approach anyways. Dont drop your fighters over enemy ships.

It may seem like a good idea to launch rocket planes first to go after the DD's, but you'll be running your lightest aircraft into heavy AA. The cruisers will still be fairly close to the DD's when you get there since you can be on top of the caps in less than 1 minute if you use half your speed boost. TBers all the way, flush the DD's out of their smoke :)

1) Rockets: IJN rockets are easier to obtain hits (spray and pray, more rockets per volley but weaker) but only really good vs DD's, weak vs BB's, excellent vs Carriers. I tend to avoid cruisers with all planes :)

2) Torps: US torps are slow as slugs but 3 TBers (at T8) gives a good chance for hits, sometimes all 3!. IJN with 2 TB's means you will likely only get 1 hit. Flooding is rare vs bots, dont expect a lot of kills unless you are scavenging.

3) DBs: These are really tricky to use, hard to line up and drop slow as if on a parachute. US DB's seem to hit much harder and IJN gets AP bombs which seem to be very weak unless you get a citadel.

Fighters are crazy powerful, often downing an entire flight of planes in seconds.

Carrier AA is also crazy powerful. If you really want to help your fleet, try to stay within 6km of at least one BB.

At this point, Im thinking US carriers have the edge.

 

All good points but do not underestimate the IJN torps. They go 50 knts compared to the 35 knts of the American torpedoes. Makes them easier to hit with in my opinion. 

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1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

You pray - it's still an RNG based system. I've done wild zigzags that result in total losses before I even hit a target, while just powering in straight through had none, and vice versa.

That's been my experience so far too.  There have been times when I was maneuvering when the flak just loads up a wall around me.  I've had approaches on AA heavy ships lightly buffet me before, and I've had ships that aren't known for impressive AA shred me mercilessly.  So far though,  and I stress so far,  I haven't had it maim me so bad that I could not always send out another attack wave.  I have had runs go so poorly that I just sent the remaining planes back to the ship though,  seemed better than getting them blown out of the sky and having to wait for the respawn.

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long distant AA, use WASD hack

short distant AA, use recall fighters to distract with AA, then use heal to beef up your torp squad then line up the target

 

If you go in a straight line in your bb, and you eat dd torp, same principle with controlling the planes. WASD Hack is your best friend 

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33 minutes ago, Palladia said:

That's been my experience so far too.  There have been times when I was maneuvering when the flak just loads up a wall around me.  I've had approaches on AA heavy ships lightly buffet me before, and I've had ships that aren't known for impressive AA shred me mercilessly.  So far though,  and I stress so far,  I haven't had it maim me so bad that I could not always send out another attack wave.  I have had runs go so poorly that I just sent the remaining planes back to the ship though,  seemed better than getting them blown out of the sky and having to wait for the respawn.

WG is still experimenting with how far the medium range AA flak is allowed to be.

Some ships have medium range AA guns with a minimum range of 2km, get inside that and the flak stops. Other ships minimum AA range is MUCH shorter...and is very hard to dodge when trying to drop ordinance. 

This is, IMO, the source of the disconnect between perceived AA power and actual AA power. The damage per second is important...but how the damage is applied is more important  to determining  its effecticeness.

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