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LoveBote

Balance Wargaming, not "balans".

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This chart compares the results of 102 NA players who own Stalingrad and their other t10 cruisers :

whrryipk89a21.png

taken from this reddit post :

Spoiler

 

I understand this is a sensitive issue, that makes butts itch and triggers the downvote left mouse click, which is why I (re)posted this.:Smile_glasses:

(I am an imperfectly kinda neutral observer critic in this debate, neither owning Stalingrad, nor playing tier 10 ships very often.)

edit : alternative study and thread created by @Spartias here : 

 

 

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Sorry if this is nit-picky, but I don't see the point in presenting this information as a graph. What does the x-axis even represent? What special relationship is revealed by representing this data as a trend, as oppose to simply saying: "for a sample of players who own both the Stalingrad and other tier X cruisers, the average win rate of the Stalingrads is higher than for the other tier X cruisers".

Yes, this removes the usual selection bias of players with premium ships tending to be more experienced, but as we're all aware there's a host of other confounding variables which must be considered when comparing ship statistics. 

 

EDIT: Wait, is the left-most point on the x-axis the data for the #1 Stalingrad player in the game? Could that be how we're supposed to read the graph? Because in that case this graph shows absolutely nothing about the how good the Stalingrad is compared to other ships, it shows how the top Stalingrad players compare with themselves in other cruisers. That they should be better in the Stalingrad on average should be obvious to anyone with half a brain cell.

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1 minute ago, senseNOTmade said:

What does the x-axis even represent?

I believe there is a description, "Stalingrad performance rank". It appears mistitled, a better description of the X axis would be "Performance rank of tier 10 cruisers/Stalingrad"

Sorry if you find it confusing, I did too at first. But I don't think you should dismiss it, just because of that.

3 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

Because in that case this graph shows absolutely nothing about the how good the Stalingrad is compared to other ships, it shows how the top Stalingrad players compare with themselves in other cruisers. That they should be better in the Stalingrad on average should be obvious to anyone with half a brain cell.

With all due respect, it expresses how the top 102 (all?) Stalingrad owners on the NA server perform in Stalingrad vs how they perform on average, in all their t10 cruisers combined, as I understand it. We are going on trust, that the author of the graph, has treated wows-numbers data, sensibly.

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to be honest, i don't buy it, if wows is 1 vs 1 game, i can see that, but as 1/12th of the whole team, a little better single ship is not going to make that much of a difference

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9 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Not that what you are reporting is wrong, but I just don't support downvote farming.

You misunderstand my purpose. I noted this was being downvoted/suppressed on reddit. (which is the downside of that other place) By reposting it here, I am hoping to give it new life. (I don't know the author!)/

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2 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

With all due respect, it expresses how the top 102 (all?) Stalingrad owners on the NA server perform in Stalingrad vs how they perform on average, in all their t10 cruisers combined, as I understand it. We are going on trust, that the author of the graph, has treated wows-numbers data, sensibly.

But don't you see how that's a massive selection bias? As I understand it, we're trying to answer if being in the Stalingrad, ceteris paribus (important phrase here), results in better winrate performance. But the sample has been specifically selected to include all the players who perform best in the Stalingrad. This is a sample of all the players who clicked absolutely perfectly with the Stali, and understood it well basically from the beginning, not to mention all the reversion to the mean effects you're gonna have in a sample like this. I mean, I'm 90% sure that if you re-did this graph with ANY cruiser, you'd get a similar trend. 

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7 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

But don't you see how that's a massive selection bias?

How is this a selection bias? The author has used the stats of all NA server Stalingrad owners whose stats are set to public. The graph includes not just the St owners who perform best in St, but simply, ALL St owners.(i.e from full tomatoe to superunicum)

I'll say it again, ALL/

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I think it would be hilarious to release this boat for everyone. See what the stats would say about it then. It's such a small pool and most of them being clan players doesn't help figure out if the ship is OP or not.

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2 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

I think it would be hilarious to release this boat for everyone. See what the stats would say about it then. It's such a small pool and most of them being clan players doesn't help figure out if the ship is OP or not.

This is the entire point of the graph, it shows owners of Stalingrad performing much better in this cruiser, than in their other cruisers, not the cruisers of the general pop, just the cruiser stats of Stalingrad owners). If the graph is correct (honest), then it demonstrates Stalingrad is OP. 

Question : do you think Graf Zeppelin is OP?

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I can see what the OP is trying to convey, but it’s not my job to explain it.

LoveBote, fit a trendline to the two sets of data and explain what you’re trying to show.

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1 minute ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

I can see what the OP is trying to convey, but it’s not my job to explain it.

LoveBote, fit a trendline to the two sets of data and explain what you’re trying to show.

not my data, not my graph, just a repost.

Agreed, wish I had access to the original graph spreadsheet, to add details and clarifications. (and to verify source)

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1 minute ago, LoveBote said:

This is the entire point of the graph, it shows owners of Stalingrad performing much better in this cruiser, than in their other cruisers, not the cruisers of the general pop, just the cruiser stats of Stalingrad owners). If the graph is correct (honest), then it demonstrates Stalingrad is OP. 

Question : do you think Graf Zeppelin is OP?

Apples and oranges to me. At least i can shoot the Stalingrad. The Graf chilling out 20k in the edge of the map, not so much.

I don't have a stal or a graf. But if i had to choose i'd play against Stalingrad over GZ any day of the week. Simply because i can shoot back at the stal putting us on even ground so to speak.

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let me make a TLDS(too long didn't see) for the low IQ.

-stalingrad is unbalanced moving to the overpowered spectrum.

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16 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

How is this a selection bias? The author has used the stats of all NA server Stalingrad owners whose stats are set to public. The graph includes not just the St owners who perform best in St, but simply, ALL St owners.

 

It's actually not. My stats are public, and I should be on that list but I'm not, for some reason, even though I'm well above last place in every category.

It also doesn't include people like this guy:

image.thumb.png.6bdfc88101978b91078c2f7ead0c4efc.png

(edit to add: that's not me.)

Edited by LT_Rusty_SWO

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Even within the same players you need to look deeper to see how significant better performance is.

I've generally gotten better at the game, my stats in my latest T10's are better than my earlier ones. For almost everyone with Stalingrad they'll already have more experience playing T10/T10 cruisers when they get her, rather than having their first experience.

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2 minutes ago, LT_Rusty_SWO said:

 

It's actually not. My stats are public, and I should be on that list but I'm not, for some reason, even though I'm well above last place in every category.

It also doesn't include people like this guy:

image.thumb.png.6bdfc88101978b91078c2f7ead0c4efc.png

(edit to add: that's not me.)

link plse.

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2 minutes ago, LT_Rusty_SWO said:

 

It's actually not. My stats are public, and I should be on that list but I'm not, for some reason, even though I'm well above last place in every category.

It also doesn't include people like this guy:

image.thumb.png.6bdfc88101978b91078c2f7ead0c4efc.png

(edit to add: that's not me.)

:cap_haloween:

That's pretty bad for such an OP ship though.

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1 minute ago, mofton said:

Even within the same players you need to look deeper to see how significant better performance is.

I've generally gotten better at the game, my stats in my latest T10's are better than my earlier ones. For almost everyone with Stalingrad they'll already have more experience playing T10/T10 cruisers when they get her, rather than having their first experience.

Question : is Graf Zeppelin OP?

:Smile_glasses:

Spoiler

I've generally gotten better at the game, my stats in my latest T8 Cvs are better than my earlier ones. No really!

 

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12 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

I think it would be hilarious to release this boat for everyone. See what the stats would say about it then. It's such a small pool and most of them being clan players doesn't help figure out if the ship is OP or not.

ill tell you what. ill give a mini review in a tad.... if the people who complain its OP without ever played one, they would die instantly.

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3 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

ill tell you what. ill give a mini review in a tad.... if the people who complain its OP without ever played one, they would die instantly.

But isn't this besides the point? If all tomatoes had  better results in a Stalingrad, than any other t10 cruiser they might play, it would still suggest this ship is overperforming..

having it only in the hands of mostly decent players, is in fact worse of course, because they are able to take full advantage, extending their lead over other players (to use a racing analogy)

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Just now, LoveBote said:

But isn't this besides the point? If all tomatoes had  better results in a Stalingrad, than any other t10 cruiser they might play, it would still suggest this ship is overperforming..

they would die faster in stalingrad. 

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