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Battleship_Elisabeth

Could we get an Italian heavy cruiser premium, please?

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Honestly, I don't feel like the two cruisers we have are particularly good captain trainers for an eventual Italian heavy cruiser line - IFHE is basically required on both, and A'osta, at least, doesn't benefit much from superintendent, either (at least not enough to justify it in my book). I suppose you could argue that the battleships are better trainers for the heavy cruisers, except that I don't run with AFT on either of my Italian BBs because their secondaries are kind of 'meh' and there are better places to put the points.

I'm not saying this is a dire need, or anything, but given that both Italian cruisers are pretty much glass cannons (minus the cannon), whereas Italian CAs eventually evolved into some of the most well-armored cruisers ever built, my sense is that the overlap in playstyle will be dramatically different (it also bears mentioning that the Zaras didn't have torpedoes, either).

Were I to suggest a possible choice, it would be a tier VIII premium Pola. Not only is she relatively famous (as much as cruisers can be famous [she was the unlucky and infamous instigator of a military disaster]), but she looked different from the other Zaras due to the extended bridge structure (she was intended to be a flagship, and the extra space was for the accommodation of the Admiral and his flag staff).

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Just a thought.

Edited by Battleship_ContediCavour
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Unfortunately Pola should never be made in this game. There is the disgusting habit of joking about the death of her crew and the even more disgusting kancolle implementation of this “joke” with a sexualized prepubescent female alcoholic avatar. 

Gorizia is the proper choice. God forbid WG actually choose an Italian premium on what ship the Italian fan base would actually like to see. :cap_fainting:

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Sparviero said:

Unfortunately Pola should never be made in this game. There is the disgusting habit of joking about the death of her crew and the even more disgusting kancolle implementation of this “joke” with a sexualized prepubescent female alcoholic avatar. 

Gorizia is the proper choice. God forbid WG actually choose an Italian premium on what ship the Italian fan base would actually like to see. :cap_fainting:

 

 

Why... do people joke about the death of her crew? This is news to me.

*Edit* Wait, no, I found it.

Quote

Thus, the commander of the British destroyer flotilla pressed on with his fruitless search for another couple of hours. He finally reversed course when he received a message from one of the destroyers left in the area of the action, which reported the presence of a Littorio class battleship dead in the water. In fact, this was the Pola, but when the correction came, Mack was already on his way back, with no hope left to catch Iachino. Having sighted the Pola, Mack took many survivors aboard and then torpedoed the cruiser, sending it to the bottom. The British crew had the impression that all semblance of good order and discipline had disappeared aboard Pola. In fact, after the hit taken several hours previously, many crewmen had been panic-stricken and had jumped overboard[11]. Once they realized the ship was not in any immediate danger of sinking, they asked and obtained to be brought back aboard. However, chilled to the bone and with no way to dry their wet clothes, they stripped and tried to fight off the cold with alcoholic beverages. This unseemly display of naked, drunken men, lying on deck among heaps of wet clothes and liquor bottles rolling to and fro, was the British sailors’ first impression of the Pola. It is hardly surprising that their propaganda, exaggerating the episode to their advantage, made it even more embarrassing to the Italians. 

That's freaking disgusting that Kancolle would make light of that.

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Edited by Battleship_ContediCavour
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2 minutes ago, Battleship_ContediCavour said:

Why... do people joke about the death of her crew? This is news to me.

i would say that pola is obscure to the average player of wows,just like nueve de julio(a prison ship). pola might be well know to the naval enthusiast  of the forum,but to the masses?no one knows.

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48 minutes ago, Sparviero said:

Unfortunately Pola should never be made in this game. There is the disgusting habit of joking about the death of her crew and the even more disgusting kancolle implementation of this “joke” with a sexualized prepubescent female alcoholic avatar. 

 

I don't think "prepubescent" means what you think it means.

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7 minutes ago, wjp120 said:

 

I don't think "prepubescent" means what you think it means.

Lol. Yeah... she looks pretty post-pubescent to me.

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51 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

i would say that pola is obscure to the average player of wows,just like nueve de julio(a prison ship). pola might be well know to the naval enthusiast  of the forum,but to the masses?no one knows.

My only familiarity with it is from it getting destroyed by the plinth Neuroi along with Zara in season 2 of Strike Witches...

... otherwise I don’t recall hearing about the cruiser before.

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'Death of her crew'? My understanding was that they were taken off Pola before she was scuttled by torpedoes.

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5 minutes ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

'Death of her crew'? My understanding was that they were taken off Pola before she was scuttled by torpedoes.

Some 300+ went down with the ship, apparently. More died than were saved.

Edited by Battleship_ContediCavour

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I have said this before, but WoWs is a game that celebrates the ships themselves as complex machines of war, and not of its history. The game already has ships like Arizona, Nueve de Julio, and Yudachi incoming, which are much more controversial than Pola would be.

For me at least, I've never heard of Gorizia. And I never heard of Zara and Pola either before they showed up in Kancolle. Their inclusion into that game got me to look up their history. As embarrassing as Pola's end was, it was imho a unique story.

Honestly I wouldn't mind which Zara class sister got added as a premium. I'd be more likely to buy Pola, but in the end I'd base my decision on their stats.

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2 hours ago, Cruxdei said:

i would say that pola is obscure to the average player of wows,just like nueve de julio(a prison ship). pola might be well know to the naval enthusiast  of the forum,but to the masses?no one knows.

I’d call [edited] on that considering the number of times it has been brought up. 

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1 hour ago, wjp120 said:

 

I don't think "prepubescent" means what you think it means.

Tits on a nine year old. If you think that in anyway looks like an adult or adolescent that’s disturbing. 

Same thing happens every time this is brought up. Everyone plays dumb when it is called out. That is fine you are only lying to yourself. 

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26 minutes ago, Sparviero said:

I’d call [edited] on that considering the number of times it has been brought up. 

by forum naval enthusiasts. the forum members are a minority in wows playerbase,don't forget a lot of players just want to sail ships,they don't care if X or Y had a sad story or a brilliant carrer.

for the average players,the italian navy is just as obscure as the brazilian navy in ww2. the average player know about US navy,ijn navy,peral harbor and maybe kriegsmarine. come to think of it,i don't think the average player know much about the italian front,thanks to call of duty,the european front is more know as germans x allies.hungarians,romanians,czech and others  axis allies are not even mentioned sometimes.

pola is a unique ship,but if i ask a normal guy in wows chat or even a stranger on the street about pola,the  first thing it might comes to  mind if that word is polish.

Edited by Cruxdei

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2 hours ago, Battleship_ContediCavour said:

That's freaking disgusting that Kancolle would make light of that

The creators don't share your cultural sensitivities, and neither does WG for that matter. Keep that in mind when framing your criticisms. Is it in bad taste? Sure. But IIRC these are the same sort of people (if not the same people; I'm not sure) who turned the spontaneous detonation of Mutsu at her berth into a long-running meme on the anthropomorphised version's temper.

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38 minutes ago, Sparviero said:

Tits on a nine year old. If you think that in anyway looks like an adult or adolescent that’s disturbing. 

Same thing happens every time this is brought up. Everyone plays dumb when it is called out. That is fine you are only lying to yourself. 

It's an anime girl. They all look youthful. 

She's a cruiser, which means that she's around 16-18 in Kancolle terms - hardly a small child.

Considering how our society sexualizes women - including those far younger than the legal age of consent - it's a little silly to thumb your nose at the Japanese as if they're all perverted. Frankly, I think they're just honest. This is a stupid hill you've chosen to die on.

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32 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The creators don't share your cultural sensitivities, and neither does WG for that matter. Keep that in mind when framing your criticisms. Is it in bad taste? Sure. But IIRC these are the same sort of people (if not the same people; I'm not sure) who turned the spontaneous detonation of Mutsu at her berth into a long-running meme on the anthropomorphised version's temper.

No, Mutsu in Kancolle is extremely easy-going; she's all laughter and smiles. 

Generally, I really like Kantai Collection. This, however, seems like a bit of a hit job on their part. While I think the Regina Maria had absolutely cowardly admirals, their equipment was first-rate, and there is no evidence that their sailors were any worse (or better) than the average seaman elsewhere. If you think your ship is sinking, it's pretty natural to leap overboard; and a lot of people consume alcohol to try to warm themselves. I don't even really blame the British for turning into a propoganda coup - that was how everyone was portraying the other side.

Turning the character into a lush, though? Yeah, kind of bad form, considering the scene of men going overboard, the majority of whom wouldn't survive.

Edited by Battleship_ContediCavour

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This is NA server, and generally NA, when it isn't caught up in the Pacific war, knows a few British and German ships and that's really it, so it's fairly understandable that few here would have ever known the names of individual Italian ships. The Mediterranean theater was the centerpoint of the naval war for a most of the vital period of the Second World War, but tends to fly under the radar, especially in America - as Americans, beyond supply, tended to have very little to do with it.

Among other playerbases, especially the Italian one, the situation is significantly different.

 

 

That being said, on the question of Gorizia and Pola (and I apologize for that linked thread's quality - that had two posts, and the forum deleted the first one discussing most of her history section)... for the love of God, I really hope WG doesn't give us Pola.

 

Out of the knowledge anyone might have about the class, Pola tends to come up the most often, and for all the wrong reasons. Her career wasn't exactly noteworthy, although she fought in a fair number of actions. However, her end is immortalized by falsehoods, as the British propaganda scheme rolled with the idea of drunken sailors - the idea of the Italian sailors all being buffoons and drunks as soon as the chance was given fit extremely well with the lines of British propaganda at the time, and also played extremely well on the racial stereotypes at the time. Unfortunately, the historiography of this even, at least in the English language, has failed to clear up over time in spite of 70 years having passed since the event and the truth of the matter long since reported. Thus, the jokes over drunken fools (who were, of course, actually men dying of hypothermia) still continue to this day. Kancolle is just one example, where the manifests in the form of the anthropomorphic girl who tends to be silly, gets drunk very often and also tends to start stripping - essentially, playing along exactly with the lines of a story that did not actually happen. As far as the age thing goes with that, I'm not actually clear on the rules, but that's a separate issue - although I think on paper a heavy cruiser isn't 'underage', only DDs, one never really knows with the artstyle... Example 1, Example 2. As I said, thought, that's a Kancolle issue at best, and separate to the historiography of Pola's crew. Outside of Kancolle, a number of 'historical' sites have repeated the same myth, and about a year ago one of our British CCs thought it would would be funny to make a wine-bottle Kobayashi camo meme about it. So it still pops up plenty often, and it's more than a little insulting. So, to say a Pola premium wouldn't go down very well with the Italian community would be an understatement.

 

As far as better candidates go, her sister, Gorizia, is a much better pick. While certainly not well known in the Anglosphere, she was the only Zara-class cruiser to escape the events at Matapan, and went on to see more action than almost any other cruiser in the war, fighting in seven major actions and a plethora of minor ones, acting as the flagship of 3ª Div for most of the war. She and Fiume were the only members of the class to get camouflages, and Gorizia's the only one to get a wartime AA refit, so she's a bit better off than her sisters stat-wise. Not only is she responsible for the longest-ranged hit ever scored by a cruiser, she also proved an impressive knack for avoiding or resisting damage, as an adept torpedo-dodger (averaging over a torpedo a month), and eating up an impressive amount of hits - she once sailed for a convoy escort duty despite having over 200 splinters lodged in her sides and superstructures from bombs, and in another instance after taking blows from a flight of American heavy bombers, escaped to a different port (some 450 km away) under her own power. Just to be clear, the type of damage she took would have sunk pretty much any other wartime cruiser save for maybe Algérie - nevermind preventing them from escaping under their own power. She survived the armistice, and even when without a crew proved impossible to sink in spite of Allied and Axis efforts - thus, even while listing heavily, she was found to be the only Italian heavy cruiser to survive WWII when La Spezia was liberated in 1945.

While I don't mean to belittle famous ships like Exeter, or Houston, or Indianapolis, Helena, Prinz Eugen, or a dozen other cruisers that have far more fame  and recognition than Gorizia, most of them saw far less action in their careers and lack anything close to the same service record.

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16 minutes ago, Battleship_ContediCavour said:

No, Mutsu in Kancolle is extremely easy-going; she's all laughter and smiles. 

Generally, I really like Kantai Collection. This, however, seems like a bit of a hit job on their part. While I think the Regina Maria had absolutely cowardly admirals, their equipment was first-rate, and there is no evidence that their sailors were any worse (or better) than the average seaman elsewhere. If you think your ship is sinking, it's pretty natural to leap overboard; and a lot of people consume alcohol to try to warn themselves. I don't even really blame the British for turning into a propoganda coup - that was how everyone was portraying the other side.

Turning the character into a lush, though? Yeah, kind of bad form, considering the scene of men going overboard, the majority of whom wouldn't survive.

In this specific case, most of the crew that went overboard did so because they thought the ship was about to be torpedoed again - during the night, a British destroyer (Stuart or Havock, I can't remember which) turned up and fired several rounds into the cruiser before moving off. The obvious assumption was that torpedoes would surely follow, which prompted many to jump.

 

That being said - I wouldn't characterize most RM admirals as cowards, and few if any deserve that title. While certainly some were less aggressive than others, and supermarina was always very cautious, the at-sea admirals tended to be quite aggressive, and there are many cases of commanders who willingly sacrificed and went down with their own ships in order to save other ships - Enrico Baroni in the Espero action is perhaps one of the best examples of that. I'll also note that Iachino's handling of Littorio at the Second Battle of Sirte is perhaps the most aggressive action of a battleship pretty much ever, only rivaled by Warpsite at Narvik. Most admirals shy their battleships away from smokescreens entirely rather than attempt to charge them down.

In general, supermarina acted always keeping in mind that no losses could be replaced, and tended to be very domineering towards the actions of admirals at sea. That, on the command level, is probably what most hindered the actions of admirals at sea on a 'morale' level or anything close to bravery or cowardice - and this was affected by the quality of reconnaissance, which is something more relating to the politics of the government and military. The Air Force, with the support of the government (aka, Mussolini), domineered almost every aspect of aviation, so the fleets at sea could never rely on their own air cover. British carriers thus served as a major force multiplier in both strike ability as well as reconnaissance, and the ability to deny the Italians their own - and mistaken counts of enemy ships would cause numerous admirals to be recalled on the basis of their forces being totally outmatched. Moreso than any level of caution or lack thereof from supermarina, lack of radar, or lack of fuel - the lack of cooperation between the Regia Aeronautica and Regia Marina was the most damaging to the ability of any Italian admiral to make contact with an enemy force. The few times the admiral had enough information came as a result of reading British messages (such as 2nd Sirte and the Battle of Mid-June), and generally not though the recon of the RA or Luftwaffe, which rarely proved reliable. Even if the enemy was accurately located, often it would be reported in far greater strength than it actually was - for example, a Luftwaffe aircraft ultimately saved the Operation Pedestal convoy from destruction (and by extension, the island of Malta) by mistaking a Dido-class light cruiser as a Nelson-class battleship, which caused the cruiser interception force to be recalled, turning an assured victory into a strategic defeat.

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