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Airglide2

"Upon this SIMS, I shall build my American Destroyer Church" (and an Atlanta)

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I think it's safe to say that the SIMS was WOWS first "Realistic Destroyer" for the American Destroyer line (Realistic in the vision of a good captain trainer and earning respectable credits). What was once locked behind a year long waiting list from 2015-2016 and only given to those that pre-order a bundle pack, is now available to everyone. It was very sleek, very sexy and very sought after by players who wanted something other than Atlanta (oh how spoiled we are in 2019 compared to then). Following it's re-introduction after September 2016 there have been a total of 3 other American Premium Destroyers and 5 other American-in-origin Premium Destroyers, all including some gimmick, sometimes towards their national flavor.

But when you look closely at each American-esk Destroyer I think you'll find that the SIMS seems to stick out the most among them, in particular, the torpedo armory department. Unfortunately (or is it?) and unless I am mistaken, there is not one Destroyer among them with more than 2 tiers difference in relative torpedo alpha strike. None! But allow me to explain. On the one hand you have the Mk15 mod. 0 which have very short range (for even a T7 American Destroyer) with Tier 4 alpha strike level of devastation (again at T7 we're at here). Simply put, they are Clemson level torpedoes. To quote WOWS Wiki page: "Aggressive captains can equip the Mk15 mod. 0 torpedoes and fight in close quarters and around islands. She inherits this style of play from her predecessors like Nicholas and Farragut." Erm, last I checked Nicholas and Farragut don't see Radar as often as T7 ships do, also, which Destroyer captain insists to ambush torpedoes around islands every match to make bank?

On the other hand you have the Bliss Leavitt Mk7 mod. 2B torpedoes. Very good range for T7 American Destroyers but (and get this, for real) Tier 3 levels of alpha damage! Or simply put, WICKES-like torpedoes. All the while going in similar speed as the Le Terrible, which is at Tier 8. Truth be told, for all my 10k plus games I've played and all the people I've gotten to know over the short years here at WOWS, I have never met anyone who takes out a destroyer of any kind and uses their torpedoes for the purposes of "area denial" (as is the excuse for the Bliss Leavitt Mk7 mod. 2B). Nor for any rock-specific ambush formula at high tiers. Everyone of them uses their torpedoes for what they were designed to do, and that is to sink ships. Maiming them is just a consolation prize. But never denying ships to a certain area because, "We just need to get 3 more ships together for the final push! SIMS, can you spam that area with torpedoes till we get everyone grouped up?!"

For such a memorable ship, in my humble opinion, I believe it's torpedo armament is defeated by all 9 younger bucks out there. Sure some Destroyers only have one set of tubes or one of them has even slower torps than SIMS. But they all have it where it counts, and that is alpha strike. NONE of them have torpedoes that are over, like 4 tiers in alpha strike or range. Speed yes, but there's not that many of them. I have the idea on how to fix original "American Premium Destroyer" (yes, mock me with Smith, I don't care) but I'd like to hear what you guys recommend torpedo-wise to SIMS.

Finally, as for Atlanta, you know what (shoot) let me hear how you would change her torps as well. In my humble opinion her torpedo range is unrealistically short, of 4.5km, at T7.  This may have worked in 2015, but so many ships have been added (with more reasonable torpedo ranges) that make her torpedo range seem unreasonable.  Tirpitz has short range torpedoes, but it’s possible to still alive until she reaches here preferred launching range.  As I mentioned above small islands are 5-6km in length, just to big, again, for Atlanta torps to be effective should it get jumped.  I also have an answer for her, but let me hear yours.

TLDR: SIMS in my humble opinion has torpedoes that don't fit in todays meta by a long shot, or ever if I'm being completely honest. I'm not looking for anyone to change my mind (lol) but a good solution to her torpedo dilemma.

Go.

Edited by Airglide2
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Though I think the ship is fine, I wouldn't mind a buff to the Sims.

Spoiler

 

Clearly calls for another nurf to the torpedoes of those dastardly IJN AND Pan-Asian DDs. Their comforts of better long range long lances have gone on for far too long.

All torpedoes above 4km reach must now be slower than txXafdu.png torpedos.

 

 

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Sims isn't a torpedo boat, the USN DDs aren't torp boats until maybe T8, certainly T9. The guns are what makes here. She doesn't have torpedoes, she has sea mines, which are laid in caps in hopes that a enemy will run into them.

The Atlanta REALLY isn't a torpedo boat. It has 16 5" guns with a ludicrous ROF, and with IFHE that thing puts out a scary amount of firepower. There is an Atlanta with good torpedoes. It's called the Flint. It's OP (OK, the smokescreen helps too). I can see how the Sims has been powercrept, definitely. But the Atlanta isn't UP, she's just very different. 

If you're playing US ships for the torpedoes, you're playing the wrong nation.

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That's a lot of writing just to say "buff Sims's torps!":Smile_teethhappy:

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It would be nice if Sim's torpedoes were on par with Mahan's though. 

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I'd actually like concealment buffed to say 6.3-6.4.

Sims is tiny but one of worst DDs for concealment.

Buffing concealment would make the manpedoes (the 5.5km ones) more useable and give the Sims two unique torpedo choices.

And/or give her 6.4km Farragut torps as her second torpedo choice. Basically, give a choice between slow weak long range water mines, or powerful short ranged torps. But make the short ranged torps a valid option.

 

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37 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

Sims isn't a torpedo boat, the USN DDs aren't torp boats until maybe T8, certainly T9. The guns are what makes here. She doesn't have torpedoes, she has sea mines, which are laid in caps in hopes that a enemy will run into them.

The Atlanta REALLY isn't a torpedo boat. It has 16 5" guns with a ludicrous ROF, and with IFHE that thing puts out a scary amount of firepower. There is an Atlanta with good torpedoes. It's called the Flint. It's OP (OK, the smokescreen helps too). I can see how the Sims has been powercrept, definitely. But the Atlanta isn't UP, she's just very different. 

If you're playing US ships for the torpedoes, you're playing the wrong nation.

Where did I give the impression that she should be a torpedo boat?  Sorry if I gave you that impression.  Every American Destroyer is balanced by gaining one powerful characteristic and one poor characteristic.  Black has very slow torpedos but they pack a punch!  Farrugut has strong torpedoes too, but they are within reason of its tier (plus I’m noticing these islands in game are about 5 or so kilometers wide or more on the small side).  SIMS’s torpedoes has neither the alpha nor speed nor range to compete with any other DD at her tier because unlike Monoghan who’s torpedoes are only a tier away difference wise, SIMS is 3 and 4 tiers away.  Sure she has the range, but what good is that if it just tickles the enemy?  Or more than likely, misses?  Atlanta is worse in range (4.5km).  That’s far to short to properly defend yourself if you get jumped.  

44 minutes ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

That's a lot of writing just to say "buff Sims's torps!":Smile_teethhappy:

Look I’m trying to separate myself from those that just don’t give a crap how they ask for help. I want to make a proper defense here by painting a picture first.  Sometimes people want more color of which I do my best to accommodate.

32 minutes ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

I'd actually like concealment buffed to say 6.3-6.4.

Sims is tiny but one of worst DDs for concealment.

Buffing concealment would make the manpedoes (the 5.5km ones) more useable and give the Sims two unique torpedo choices.

And/or give her 6.4km Farragut torps as her second torpedo choice. Basically, give a choice between slow weak long range water mines, or powerful short ranged torps. But make the short ranged torps a valid option.

 

This is one the answers I had in mind to fix SIMS’s torpedos.  5.5km is terribly outclassed at T7, especially when you have to fight T8-9.  I had more than once thought that Farraguts torpedos or torpedo range, at least, is a good start (or finish).  But along with that 6.5km, I’d like a increase in damage as well (T4 damage?  Come on now).  I’m silent on the det range though.  Don’t want to continue this “concealment” arms race that started last year.

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I’m silent on the det range though.  Don’t want to continue this “concealment” arms race that started last year. 

Lowering all T7s detection isn't an arms race, it's merely sensible given the T8 concealment module give T8+ a ridiculous advantage and T7 tends to have the worst concealment, tier-for-tier.... I mean, compare Sims & Mahan to Benson/Akizuki/Cossack etc.

I've found my T6 DDs cope OK in T7 (I'm confident taking on a Mahan in a Farragut, for example) due to comparable concealement, but the T7s are horridly outspotted and outgunned.

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You don't play the Sims or the Atlanta for the torpedoes. You play them because they're great gunboats. If you're having problems with the Atlanta, there's a video that can help you. It's a little old, but the basics are still relevant (and the memes are still funny).

 

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9 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

Sims isn't a torpedo boat, the USN DDs aren't torp boats until maybe T8, certainly T9.

I believe the point is the game has changed and the Sims' torps don't fit into the current meta.  Between power creep, and ever increase number of ships with radar the Sims' need better torp options (and better concealment).  Its one of the oldest premiums in the game, maybe its time to bring it up to date with the game meta. 

8 hours ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

Sims is tiny but one of worst DDs for concealment.

I completely agree with you about the concealment, but the Sims isn't a small DD.  Its slightly larger than the other T6-8 US DDs.  

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9 hours ago, Airglide2 said:

Look I’m trying to separate myself from those that just don’t give a crap how they ask for help. I want to make a proper defense here by painting a picture first.  Sometimes people want more color of which I do my best to accommodate.

 

I get where you were coming from, but I still found it amusing that a long explanation was put forth for what was ultimately a very simple request.:Smile-_tongue:

TBH it could be argued that most of the early premiums need a balance pass. Except Atago since the devs have already buffed her 2 or 3 times. The early premiums were created for a different environment, and the game has changed a lot since then.

The Sims is a legacy destroyer, appearing when the game was still in closed beta testing, and when the game only had 2 lines. The IJN had crap guns and great torps, whilst the USN got crap torps but good guns. The ship has since been power creeped by ships with both good guns and torps.

 

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2 hours ago, 1Sherman said:

You don't play the Sims or the Atlanta for the torpedoes. You play them because they're great gunboats. If you're having problems with the Atlanta, there's a video that can help you. It's a little old, but the basics are still relevant (and the memes are still funny).

 

And as I told AKTP89 above: Every American Destroyers has a great characteristic and poor characteristic about their torpedoes.  SIMS has nothing but poor characteristics.  They don’t hit hard nor do they travel fast.  One has, I want to say “makes-no-sense” range (5.5km) for its tier, play style and class with Tier 4 alpha.  The other has the range sure, but are just to slow for the payoff, the payoff of a Tier 3 alpha strike.  Try to hit those torps on a Mass, Alabama, Amagi, Izumo, FDG, and see happens.

I never tried to give the impression that she should be torpedo boat.  No, that is absolutely not what I’m trying to say.  What I’m saying is if WG can give SIMS a similar loadout to the other American Destroyers or the American-esk Destroyers of today have.  Either with short range with high alpha strike, or slow speed but big alpha damage.  This slow speed coupled with terrible alpha but long range isn’t working.  In fact if you want my honest opinion, it’s never worked (please refer to my Destroyer Area Denial example above).

Also that Atlanta video is far to old to even grasp the meta of today, particularly and specifically, the torpedo section of his video.  4.5km torpedo range is to short to mount a proper defense should it get jumped from behind an island.  Tirpitz can get it range because it has the armor to do so.  Atlanta?  Think again.  Royal Navy CLs have better preparation for surprises than her and that have terrible armor.  Again, these islands are long width.  I’m not arguing the alpha potential, that can be left alone.

Edited by Airglide2

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5 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I believe the point is the game has changed and the Sims' torps don't fit into the current meta.  Between power creep, and ever increase number of ships with radar the Sims' need better torp options (and better concealment).  Its one of the oldest premiums in the game, maybe its time to bring it up to date with the game meta. 

Thank you for putting this in plane English.

5 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

I get where you were coming from, but I still found it amusing that a long explanation was put forth for what was ultimately a very simple request.:Smile-_tongue:

TBH it could be argued that most of the early premiums need a balance pass. Except Atago since the devs have already buffed her 2 or 3 times. The early premiums were created for a different environment, and the game has changed a lot since then.

The Sims is a legacy destroyer, appearing when the game was still in closed beta testing, and when the game only had 2 lines. The IJN had crap guns and great torps, whilst the USN got crap torps but good guns. The ship has since been power creeped by ships with both good guns and torps.

 

Exactly on the buffs of older models.  That’s why I put the Atlanta’s torpedoes alongside the SIMS, the range just doesn’t cut it anymore.  The  alpha is fine, but not that range.

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