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Zorwinn100

Tried Reworked CV today... And actually enjoyed it!

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After reading substantial negative feedback about the CV rework, I decided to download the Public Test client today and played some rounds with CVs.  I expected I would not like it, but I found I actually enjoyed the rework.  The main thing I enjoyed is that you are closer to the planes and get a more immersive feel in the approach, maneuver, and attack on a ship.

Some background:

  • I have been playing since Alpha Test and I admit I always enjoyed CV play, although I certainly am not a CV main. 
  • I do understand some of the frustration with CVs in current state.  As noted by many others:
    • With the high skill ceiling on CVs, if your team has a lesser skilled captain managing a high tier CV against a better skilled opponent CV, your team is at a major disadvantage from the start.
    • If a competent player in a high tier CV (e.g. Midway, Hakuryu) decides you need to sink, they can wipe you out pretty quickly with a massive alpha strike and there is very little you can do about it.
    • CVs can park planes above any DD and perma-spot the DD plus their torps, effectively countering a DD's main capabilities (stealth + torps).

I think with the rework, all three of the above frustrations are addressed to some degree:

  • A high skilled CV player can no longer rapidly strafe and destroy all the planes of a lesser skilled captain and completely take over control of the sky.
  • CV alpha strike potential is reduced and the frustrating quick deletion via massive torpedo bomber attack will be much less likely.
  • Reduced perma-spotting.

I know a number of players prefer CV's be banned.  I disagree, even as a BB/DD main.  I think we should have CVs more frequently in matches because it will reduce the appeal of static "bow camping" and "island humping" which I think are among the least appealing aspects of the current meta.

 

A few suggestions for improvement to CV rework:

1. Really MUST give a CV player the ability to adjust ship speed/direction while a squadron is in the air.  The explanation of "reducing multitasking" is taken too far to the extreme by disallowing CV steering and speed adjustments during squadron flight 

2. Bring back a CV for each tier.  At least for Japan/USA.  Surely there must be a way to balance CVs at every tier.  It is a shame not to have Zuiho, Hiryu, Taiho, etc in the game, especially since these are historic ships that had significant operational history in WWII.

3. As for the "unlimited" hangar capacity in the rework - have not formed an opinion on it yet... but I do enjoy the "inventory management" aspect of airplanes in the current state.  This is something to keep an eye on as the rework goes live.

Good luck and have fun!

1009824252.png

Edited by Zorwinn100
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I agree with some of your points.

For right now it's new, yet I'm not sure how it's going to wear with me... you do lose some the strategy in exchange for a more arcade like experience.

I think it does have potential, but some interface and control tweaks are needed.

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The multi tasking thing is weird, because, everyone else is multitasking with driving the ship, aiming main battery and maybe torps, and maybe secondaries, and now setting AA sectors... on top of smoke/hydro/heal/catapult, etc

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1 hour ago, Zorwinn100 said:

 

 

A few suggestions for improvement to CV rework:

1. Really MUST give a CV player the ability to adjust ship speed/direction while a squadron is in the air.  The explanation of "reducing multitasking" is taken too far to the extreme by disallowing CV steering and speed adjustments during squadron flight 

 

 

You can't adjust ship speed while in flight but you can alter course.  Just hit the M key and change where you want to go.  Hit the M key again and you are back in the pilots seat on the way to your first kill!

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Everyone reacts differently - even some of the negativity is more irritation that Wargaming is refusing to make some changes, like the control while planes are airborne, and that they are forcing this out way too fast, after keeping it a secret so long. They are once again, not taking their time, and not patiently trying to fix things in the right way, and just take in to account ALL view points. Which is what caused RTS CV issues in the first place. And the fact a lot of people do not want to pay for a game that is basically going into a pseudo beta test on live server. Because this effects too many things.

I'm not a supporter of the rework, some ideas it has yes, but not even their execution in this form. You say you find this gameplay more immersive, I'm the opposite, to me, it's less immersive. Your taking away everything that made a CV a CV, I'm no longer the commander, I'm at best the CAG, I can't use the tactics used in the war when attacking ships, honestly, I see no real tactics here at all, I feel like I'm playing a BB I can't control that gets 1 turret used at a time. I get to see the not so greatly detailed planes, AA is the same system we've used, but with numbers added to hit chance, history has been thrown out the window in what every IJN fighter has, as well as their role, and what the IJN DB's are armed with among other issues. It's not worth it to see my planes to forsake all that. 

I'm also an Alpha player, and it wasn't till my spirit broke sometime last year or so that I stopped being a CV main, though still play them heavily when missions and goals allow. And while I will always disagree that a worse CV is an automatic massive disadvantage, because I have flat out shut down red CV's with tons of damage and even close to if not getting krakens and lose, and have sometimes been against better players and come out on top because of the thing that wins games the most - teamwork, yes, a dedicated CV as long as they can get past AA will eventually kill you, though so will any determined ship, and yes, the alpha strike and spotting vs DD's are an issue - I will debate torps but only because there should be some counter beyond Hydro, unless you intend to give it to all ships, and what little time they leave to react base, unless your going to give every single nation the same spotting range nerf that has crippled IJN DD's. A nerf, I might add, I advocate removing from said line. 

And aside from the fact we could remove all that in RTS with ease (Strafing has needed the DPS bonus removed or drastically reduced since it was added, particularly TB'sand since introduction AP have needed damage nerfs in order to keep manual drop without breaking the game, and spotting range changes), I still see these same issues, they are just in a different form. I can still permaspot a DD, and unlike before, I usually have 2-3 attack runs, meaning I can hit him, spot him for a bit, then hit him again. Unlike now where if I spot him with 1 group, that group is losing planes I can't replace, and spending time that it takes to cycle them back to be able to strike again. Last check TB alpha is still high, now it's that damage over multiple passes with a better chance to guarantee flooding which, quite frankly because I play all 3 other types, would prefer single runs from groups than these multiple runs, to which as much as strafing needs to go or be fixed, and this gets rid of it, not at the cost of actually having fighters to help defend - proper fighters, not these fixed spot bots. 

 

Honestly, every time I've played test versions of the rework - I prefer playing RTS CV's, and playing against RTS CV's. It's good you like it, people should make up their own minds not just listen to all the negative or positive they see and assume that's what they will feel - Notser was all about this rework, until he realized this was the final product and wen't "uh... wait, this isn't THAT good and needs more work". And the biggest issue is that they refuse to do things properly. I'll tell you right now most of the complaints they are seeing on PTS are complaints we had on Beta, but "that sample size was too small", yet somehow large enough to justify continued work and implementation with only 32% backing it, and I'll guarantee you that if and when it hits live - the exact same issues will be there without changes. It's been an excuse of "not enough data" it's really more "the data doesn't say what we want, so clearly the data is wrong", and this is the same as if they had dropped subs on to the live server as is - something they did not do, they sectioned them off to be tested in game, but not in PvP - and they have done this with a ton of important things, limited area effects, fixed torpedoes, consumables, Battle Royale, all sorts of things under the guise of fun events. And they failed to do that here and have really backed themselves into a corner. 

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@WanderingGhost

Bravo.

’...until my spirit broke...’

This rework will probably do it for me.

I quickly realized I didn’t have what it took to be competitive in carriers in mid-upper tiers, but still grew to enjoy the RTS in Co-op and Ops.

One of the main reasons I did so is the same reason I can’t enjoy Tanks;

’...the pace of the fighting is too fast...’

As intense as Ships can be, it it still relatively slow paced. With this rework, carriers becomes more like Tanks; too fast paced for me to deal with.

Data overload is why I had to abandon upper tier Random carrier play. Is it any wonder I preferred the USN carriers? Less to deal with.

RTS for me is actually less intense, and less of a data overload than the new FPS carriers are.

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Do you prefer getting deleted in one strike or getting deleted by harassing strike ? Because this is what the rework is proposing.

 

As a cruiser, I might be able to defend myself but the moment I take out a DD, the game is over. DD are just getting even more screwed in this rework. Before the CV have to somehow be cautious if there are any AA ship around that DD, now that we have unlimited hangar capacity but also destructible AA module and limited Def AA, this is just a buff for CV on the long run. You will probably not Dev Strike a target like right now, but the constant harassement doesn't make them less powerfull. 

 

Increasing reload time for plane killed means nothing if you don't let your planes get killed / reduce the amount of killed planes. CV player were hesitant to strike a DM or Worcester before, they will remain hesistant to strike them after the rework even with unlimited hangar. In fact the old method of going after ship that has been HE spam is even better now since you can just harass them

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CVs are REALLY going live with unlimited aircraft?! Wow....JUST WOW!! and WoWS just hammers in another nail into its own coffin.

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Played it and I don’t see the big deal of unlimited planes, with the AA buff bad CV drivers will just lose their planes fast and then it will take a while to respawn their planes. As long as WG doesn’t nerf AA in next PTS then CV will be balance and not be the OP cancer currently. 

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It is NOT REPEAT NOT unlimited planes. The planes have a cool down like guns and torps. How much wojld a dd player like it if you had 1 min per torp reload?

Thats what this is. If you lose your whole sq them you have to wait a very long time to get it back up.

This is not the old version this is the new one. The won everyone jas been whinning about getting for years now. And. Ow you finaly get a rework and suddenly you with you jad 1 cv per 10 games unstead of every game.

But remember its not unlimited planes.

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8 minutes ago, alex08060 said:

Played it and I don’t see the big deal of unlimited planes, with the AA buff bad CV drivers will just lose their planes fast and then it will take a while to respawn their planes. As long as WG doesn’t nerf AA in next PTS then CV will be balance and not be the OP cancer currently. 

Finaly someone that getting the plane cool down

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5 hours ago, Zorwinn100 said:

After reading substantial negative feedback about the CV rework, I decided to download the Public Test client today and played some rounds with CVs.  I expected I would not like it, but I found I actually enjoyed the rework.  The main thing I enjoyed is that you are closer to the planes and get a more immersive feel in the approach, maneuver, and attack on a ship.

Some background:

  • I have been playing since Alpha Test and I admit I always enjoyed CV play, although I certainly am not a CV main. 
  • I do understand some of the frustration with CVs in current state.  As noted by many others:
    • With the high skill ceiling on CVs, if your team has a lesser skilled captain managing a high tier CV against a better skilled opponent CV, your team is at a major disadvantage from the start.
    • If a competent player in a high tier CV (e.g. Midway, Hakuryu) decides you need to sink, they can wipe you out pretty quickly with a massive alpha strike and there is very little you can do about it.
    • CVs can park planes above any DD and perma-spot the DD plus their torps, effectively countering a DD's main capabilities (stealth + torps).

I think with the rework, all three of the above frustrations are addressed to some degree:

  • A high skilled CV player can no longer rapidly strafe and destroy all the planes of a lesser skilled captain and completely take over control of the sky.
  • CV alpha strike potential is reduced and the frustrating quick deletion via massive torpedo bomber attack will be much less likely.
  • Reduced perma-spotting.

I know a number of players prefer CV's be banned.  I disagree, even as a BB/DD main.  I think we should have CVs more frequently in matches because it will reduce the appeal of static "bow camping" and "island humping" which I think are among the least appealing aspects of the current meta.

 

A few suggestions for improvement to CV rework:

1. Really MUST give a CV player the ability to adjust ship speed/direction while a squadron is in the air.  The explanation of "reducing multitasking" is taken too far to the extreme by disallowing CV steering and speed adjustments during squadron flight 

2. Bring back a CV for each tier.  At least for Japan/USA.  Surely there must be a way to balance CVs at every tier.  It is a shame not to have Zuiho, Hiryu, Taiho, etc in the game, especially since these are historic ships that had significant operational history in WWII.

3. As for the "unlimited" hangar capacity in the rework - have not formed an opinion on it yet... but I do enjoy the "inventory management" aspect of airplanes in the current state.  This is something to keep an eye on as the rework goes live.

Good luck and have fun!

1009824252.png

I must admit I also really like the rework. This go-around made the T4s more interesting and they beefed up the AA significantly. The one remaining thing I would like is for them to make the Defensive Fire AA module more useful and interesting. Either let it buff the AA range when it is active or have it do something to disrupt targeting like it used to. 

I agree with your feeling that the return of the CVs will reduce bow camping. Also I suspect that "reducing multitasking" is just a line they are feeding us. That never made any sense. I think they don't want CV players to be able to control the ship and the plane at the same time because it adds a vulnerability to the CVs.  

As for the removed carriers, the issue isn't balancing them at every tier. Rather it's that they can't really differentiate CVs on adjacent tiers under the new CV system. For example, they can't make Langley different enough from Bogue one tier higher to warrant keeping her. The removed carriers will reappear as parallel lines on the same tiers as the remaining ones but with different capabilities sometime in the future.  Wargaming likely won't throw away the assets.

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32 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

I must admit I also really like the rework. This go-around made the T4s more interesting and they beefed up the AA significantly. The one remaining thing I would like is for them to make the Defensive Fire AA module more useful and interesting. Either let it buff the AA range when it is active or have it do something to disrupt targeting like it used to. 

I agree with your feeling that the return of the CVs will reduce bow camping. Also I suspect that "reducing multitasking" is just a line they are feeding us. That never made any sense. I think they don't want CV players to be able to control the ship and the plane at the same time because it adds a vulnerability to the CVs.  

As for the removed carriers, the issue isn't balancing them at every tier. Rather it's that they can't really differentiate CVs on adjacent tiers under the new CV system. For example, they can't make Langley different enough from Bogue one tier higher to warrant keeping her. The removed carriers will reappear as parallel lines on the same tiers as the remaining ones but with different capabilities sometime in the future.  Wargaming likely won't throw away the assets.

The targeting area already slows down massively when doing a run under heavy AA fire. Good thing is that now there's less RNG involved cause you know that works both ways in the RTS CVs. You might be able to delete a squadron but since it's RNG there's that chance that the CV will still be able to do a perfect drop and kill you.

I like the more mechanical aiming. Someone in the thread said they liked the slow pace feel of the RTS gameplay and admitted that high tier CV battles are still a chore since they are insanely dependent on APM. That combined with the "realistic" movement not to say clunky freaking unresponsive units made me lose interest in the game all together. I suck at BB and CAs. I'm alright with DDs but can't guarantee my performance. The only class I REALLY focus on are CVs and to lose interest in them to me was the same as losing interest in playing the game. I don't want to spend all my matches baby sitting BBs and doing the occasional drop on OP high tier AA.

Granted I dislike a few things on the new CV gameplay as well. But I very much prefer it. Else it's a dead class.
All that coming from someone that played a lot of Star Craft II. RTS isn't bad. It's bad in this game and tbh it'll always be bad when compared to how fun and visceral it is to play the other classes. 

Edited by Hirst

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6 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Do you prefer getting deleted in one strike or getting deleted by harassing strike ? Because this is what the rework is proposing.

From my experience on both rounds of PTS playing both CV and CL T4-T10, the impression I got that is that surface ship life is going to be very, very "different".

For the campers and island humpers, better polish up your WASD hacks and learn to drive in open water. Slow ships in confined areas are doomed. CV aiming is very easy on sluggish targets.

For the cruiser and destroyer tacticians, chaos will reign supreme. The multiple passes per squadron mean you will be too busy playing a game of tag, evading all the time, to use the fine points of tactics. Since the new planes are far more maneuverable than the old RTS, you never know who is "it" till the planes start a run, so everybody just scatters and starts weaving around like maniacs. Especially since it is often advantageous for the CV to line up two targets in line to get off a couple of drops at different ships in the same pass.

With the need for extended evasion time, I can see open-water  long-range sniping being the new meta. You can't be constantly exposing that much broadside while under spotting and live for very long at close gun range. You will find yourself shooting at whatever your guns happen to be pointing at while you squirm and wiggle.

AA builds and rudder shift upgrades for everyone will be essential. Don't depend on mutual support, because it is frightfully easy to torp into crowds. Everyone in the attack area will be too busy maneuvering for their own lives to give much thought to collective tactics.

Oh, and that AA side-reinforcement thing? It's a joke, since you will be turning too much, and the planes can shift faster than you can. It's just a distraction. Keep your eyes on the Hun in the sun.

While only one squadron per CV will be active at any time, the new plane speeds will still mean a near-continuous presence, particularly if WG gets thier wish of 2-3 CV in every match. Yes, there is a replenishment cool-down on each plane type, but there are 3 types. There is pretty much always a full-strength squadron of one kind or another available to the CV. I just cycled through them without any care for losses whatsoever.

There's no crystal ball to predict how popular the reworked CV will be among the general population, or given WG's stated purpose, what they might do in subsequent updates to encourage it, like AA nerfs and CV buffs if they feel the need.

One thing for sure, though. Everything about CV matches is going to be a re-learning. And re-learn you must, because CV will be there in. every. match.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, So_lt_Goes said:

Oh, and that AA side-reinforcement thing? It's a joke, since you will be turning too much, and the planes can shift faster than you can. It's just a distraction. Keep your eyes on the Hun in the sun.

Of all the nonsense in AA rework, this one annoys me the most. Seriously, who thought that adding another "fiddly" element to the game was worthwhile? Can you imagine engaging other ships and being attacked by aircraft and constantly having to fiddle with your AA? Just a stupid idea that needs to be dumped. Leave the "AA focus" ability like it is (control + left mouse click) and keep it automated. In all my experience on the forums, I have never heard anyone ask for this kind of change. IMHO it is just another way Wargaming is showing how out of touch they are with their players. 

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7 hours ago, Goomypoop said:

CVs are REALLY going live with unlimited aircraft?! Wow....JUST WOW!! and WoWS just hammers in another nail into its own coffin.

Soviet style business model, comrade. Pound round pegs into square holes with large hammer until fit. Working as intended, yes?

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7 hours ago, jags_domain said:

It is NOT REPEAT NOT unlimited planes. The planes have a cool down like guns and torps. How much wojld a dd player like it if you had 1 min per torp reload?

Thats what this is. If you lose your whole sq them you have to wait a very long time to get it back up.

This is not the old version this is the new one. The won everyone jas been whinning about getting for years now. And. Ow you finaly get a rework and suddenly you with you jad 1 cv per 10 games unstead of every game.

But remember its not unlimited planes.

Except that you get 3 squadrons, with two always on replenishment cooldown. There is never any shortage of planes.

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1 hour ago, CruiserSailor said:

Except that you get 3 squadrons, with two always on replenishment cooldown. There is never any shortage of planes.

^ This. When one squad is depleted, you just use another.  That's what the bottomless hangar is all about.

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9 hours ago, jags_domain said:

How much wojld a dd player like it if you had 1 min per torp reload?

I'd love it.  A lot of DD's have 1 1/2 to 2 minute torp reload.  And you're typically reloading while you're within firing range of enemies.  CV can reload a new plane squad while they're beyond firing range of just about anything.  

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3 hours ago, So_lt_Goes said:

From my experience on both rounds of PTS playing both CV and CL T4-T10, the impression I got that is that surface ship life is going to be very, very "different".

Everything you said in your post is my concern about the rework.  The game we have now will be radically changed so WG can include CVs.  I don't think the new meta is going to be better, actually I think it will likely be worse (possibly much worse).  Those that think it will be better probably haven't given it much thought, and some are only looking at things from perspective of playing the new CVs. 

13 hours ago, Zorwinn100 said:

I think we should have CVs more frequently in matches because it will reduce the appeal of static "bow camping" and "island humping" which I think are among the least appealing aspects of the current meta.

My advice to everyone is to give some thought about what kinds of changes the rework is likely to bring, and think about what it is going to do to the overall game.  Even if you believe bow camping and island humping are bad for the game, are you sure the new meta is going to be better?  Imagine clusters of ships huddled together for AA protection trying to dodge incoming attacks and not running into each other.  Does that sound more fun to you?  We can't know if that is how things will play out or not.  My point is the current tactics are very likely going out the window when the rework lands.  Maybe some of the old tactics going away will be good, but I can't see how a radical change being abruptly added to the game is going to be good.  I say that because the game (and ships) is completely balanced around not having CVs in every game.  Almost every element of the game will need to be rebalanced; and how long will it take WG to do that?

I'm not trying to sabotage the rework, or convince you its "bad".  It's coming on the 23rd, and we all are going to have to adjust.  I'd like for people to actually think about the impact on the whole game, now and when its here.  That way we can have better discussions than some of the non-sense we have going on now.  We need to be able to articulate to WG what the issues are so they can figure out how best to sort out what will likely be a very turbulent path ahead.     

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I'm glad some people like it, because it's coming no matter what. I expect most people will ultimately disklike it, and I still want to be able to play against then. While after the initial influx I expect we will have less players and no longer see them in half of low tier battles, I don't want them to disappear entirely. I know I'm not going to work on dd lines until the initial glam wears off though

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15 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

It's coming on the 23rd, and we all are going to have to adjust.

I know how I'm planning on adjusting. I'm planning on spending my time playing in tier two where there are is no sky cancer.

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fasten your seat belt, it's sad that WG will chose to self destruct like this

i think lots of people will stop playing the prey, but switch to CV, if you can't beat them, join them right? well people may find they don't like to fly airplanes in a warship game, and there's a cap of CVs per game, so even if you accept flying airplanes, you will have to wait a long time to queue as CV, while less and less players want to be punchbags

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