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CaptainTeddybear

WG - Please look at the uncounterable DD rush

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While I was in favor of the AP change vs DDs because the old counter was to make yourself easier to hit, I said from the get go that BBs will need some other form of defense against the DD rush. There are too many situations in game where the BB is not going to have enough backup to stop you and there is no counter. It's not even a suicide rush anymore because typically you will survive with a decent amount of health. I rushed 2 Musashis yesterday and they didn't even come close to killing me before I dumped 10 torpedos into one of them. I could have smoked up and rushed the other one if a radar cruiser hadn't showed up. It's often very easy to pull off in Clan battles and Ranked because of the smaller number of players.

From the other side here is a screenshot of me trying to fend off a DD rush in conditions that should have been very favorable to the BB. PEF vs Aigle , the PEF is at 95% health. Full secondary build with manual secondaries on a ship with exceptional secondaries for it's tier. In addition HE was already pre-loaded. I hit him with 10 350mm HE shells and 11 secondary hits for 16.5k. He dumped 110k worth of torpedos into me and he only has 6 torpedos. In the best case scenario for the BB the DD is able to do 700% more damage.

shot-19.01.11_21.38.37-0804.jpg

Edited by CaptainTeddybear
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Double tap the 1 button and fire away is best and effective counter. Sure they still get torps out but then again you shouldn't be alone either. If you and a second ship fired HE then it would be either dead or near dead after just one volley. Nothing that needs a "fix".

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....

 

Edited out my post, upon re-reading it, I feel I went a bit too far with my attempts at humor.

Edited by Th3KrimzonD3mon
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the only BBs i ever see getting successfully bum rushed by DDs are the ones that either overextend or wander off alone.

you're insinuating that DDs can just drive through the middle of the enemy team to torp BBs at point blank with impunity. it's good for a laugh, but it's far from true.

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Wander off alone in a BB, and you can easily become DD food.  Having a cruiser around can help immensely.  

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Just now, grumpymunky said:

Manual secondaries on a tier 6...

Just transfer the captain from secondary meme build Bismark :D

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so you did 76% HP of an Aigle's total hitpoints they have per battle that was at a range that the destroyer could not avoid and your are complaining that you got yolo rushed. additionally the Aigle is the beefiest T6 Destroyer in the game.  Additionally it seems like you either missed or didn't shoot at his torpedo launchers when the Aigle turned looking at the modules that had been knocked out.

 

You dealt enough damage to completely kill a same tier IJN DD to that Aigle.  The Aigle gambled that he had enough HP.  He was right.

 

Also you didn't do 16500 damage to that Aigle.  You did 12,985 damage to him.  The OP provided a screenshot showing proof of the DD touching them improperly.  You could at least get the numbers right for their sake.

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1. Musashi is very weak to any kind of surprise rushes or brawls because of the very slow turret traverse and the slowness of the whole ship. Not just DDs, but even CAs like Henri IV and Hindy can rush down a full HP musashi if he was caught with his pants down(same scenario to how DDs rush Muasahi, sneak through islands or in storm brawls). It’s a common thing in the late game, the smaller ships scale better in power with lesser enemies remaining than the big battleships.

2. PEF is considered bottom tier for a T6 BB. She may struggle to even fight against Kongo. Stark contrast to the GC, which is a tier lower and will have no issues taking on any T5-T6 BBs or any DDs trying to rush her. There is no valid discussion if you use PEF as an example, since I consider her more like a weak T5 than a proper T6 ship. And I do like her at times, when I forgot Warspite and Bayern exists in the game.

3. You cannot rush any BBs with DDs in the open waters. Any sane BBs would starting turning away and kiting before you reach him and you will be the only one paying the price instead. Even T2s(the best at doing it) will struggle to rush down South Carolina if SC responds quick and preemptively(means very high situational awareness), and T2s are the tiers where BB already never do more than 10% AP to DDs(DD hull armor value too thin to make angling affect AP fuse).

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i question if that overpen thing happened at all, because i still regularly get full pens, 33%, hits on DDs in BBs with 16 inch guns

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10 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

i question if that overpen thing happened at all, because i still regularly get full pens, 33%, hits on DDs in BBs with 16 inch guns

The full pen ribbon is still displayed, but the amount of damage inflicted is the same as an overpen.

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this is why it's important, as a BB, to shoot at DDs when they are lit, so they won't have the HP to yolo rush you later on in the game.

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4 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

this is why it's important, as a BB, to shoot at DDs when they are lit, so they won't have the HP to yolo rush you later on in the game.

Exactly.  Every overpen you get now is less hp he'll have later.  Red DDs surviving late is usually bad news for the green team.

 

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17 hours ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

From the other side here is a screenshot of me trying to fend off a DD rush in conditions that should have been very favorable to the BB. PEF vs Aigle , the PEF is at 95% health. Full secondary build with manual secondaries on a ship with exceptional secondaries for it's tier. In addition HE was already pre-loaded. I hit him with 10 350mm HE shells and 11 secondary hits for 16.5k. He dumped 110k worth of torpedos into me and he only has 6 torpedos. In the best case scenario for the BB the DD is able to do 700% more damage.

I don't understand you. If I am in a BB I want DDs to rush me, especially in Ranked in which you know exactly where you are coming from. Yoloing a BB is easy in coop but in real games the BB driver simply puts a broadside into the DD at close range for half its health, switches to HE, then makes a radical turn, maybe eats a torp, and then finishes the DD. Killed a yoloing Aigle and a Fubu in matches yesterday while in Fuso, and didnt eat a single torp. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

this is why it's important, as a BB, to shoot at DDs when they are lit, so they won't have the HP to yolo rush you later on in the game.

This. This so much.

Too many BB players see DDs as not worth shooting because 'muh damage numbers'

No. You hit them hard from the start if you can, and reduce their options. Overpens might disappoint you, but each overpen is still almost 1000 damage that hurts a lot more on a DD than it does on any other ship type.

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25 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

i question if that overpen thing happened at all, because i still regularly get full pens, 33%, hits on DDs in BBs with 16 inch guns

You can still get normal pens, but they only do 1/3 damage if your target is a Haru or Khab. Otherwise they are hardcoded to just do 10% damage. Interestingly enough, since this change only affects guns with a caliber of 280mm or more, none of the supercruisers should be using AP against DDs. Of course, considering the nasty things I've seen Stalin's HE do to DDs, I'd ask why you wouldn't switch.

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1 hour ago, Fodder4U said:

Double tap the 1 button and fire away is best and effective counter. Sure they still get torps out but then again you shouldn't be alone either. If you and a second ship fired HE then it would be either dead or near dead.

Some games end up with most people alive near the end, usually the really bad games. In most games you only have a few ships left near the end and you are fighting for control of multiple capture points.

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6 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

This. This so much.

Too many BB players see DDs as not worth shooting because 'muh damage numbers'

No. You hit them hard from the start if you can, and reduce their options. Overpens might disappoint you, but each overpen is still almost 1000 damage that hurts a lot more on a DD than it does on any other ship type.

Meh.  Sorry, but if there's some full health DD spotted out at 12-13 km and some other larger target that I can do serious damage to, I'm not wasting my shots on a damned DD that I'll be lucky as all hell to hit.  Hey, if I have HE loaded, that might be a different story.  You can make this argument all you want, but when my to hit chance is crap on a DD at longer range and I have AP loaded, it is just NOT WORTH a ~30 second reload to fire off my AP shells on a hope and a prayer at a healthy DD.  Sure, if the DD is on low health and ready to die, that's a different story.  And, sure, if I have nothing better to shoot at, why not.  But when there are heavier enemy ships out there that I have a much greater chance to hit and do real damage to, you're dreaming if you think that I'm going to choose maybe getting a couple of overpen dings on a healthy DD for a chance to do serious damage on a larger ship.

You're just not making a strong case here for wasting ~30 second reload AP shells on long range, low chance to hit shots for the off chance of dinging a healthy DD.  Let the cruisers do it.  They have faster reloading, more accurate guns, and are more likely to have HE loaded most of the time, and those with highish velocity guns probably have a better chance of landing hits.

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14 minutes ago, JediMasterDraco said:

You can still get normal pens, but they only do 1/3 damage if your target is a Haru or Khab. Otherwise they are hardcoded to just do 10% damage. Interestingly enough, since this change only affects guns with a caliber of 280mm or more, none of the supercruisers should be using AP against DDs. Of course, considering the nasty things I've seen Stalin's HE do to DDs, I'd ask why you wouldn't switch.

Stalins should absolutely wreck DDs with her high velocity guns, when using HE.  Heck, high velocity cruiser guns, no matter the caliber, can wreck DDs with HE.

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Stalins should absolutely wreck DDs with her high velocity guns, when using HE.  Heck, high velocity cruiser guns, no matter the caliber, can wreck DDs with HE.

Take Boise/Helena/Nueve de Julio out and giggle as you wreck DDs...

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48 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

this is why it's important, as a BB, to shoot at DDs when they are lit, so they won't have the HP to yolo rush you later on in the game.

Sound advice!!!!

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19 minutes ago, Crucis said:

but when my to hit chance is crap on a DD at longer range and I have AP loaded, it is just NOT WORTH a ~30 second reload to fire off my AP shells on a hope and a prayer at a healthy DD.

Not worth it, until the ignored (sorry Uncounterable) DD yolo charges and sinks the BB. 

Then BB player should feel that they can come to the forums and say it's not fair......

Edited by Camo68
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Just now, Camo68 said:

 

Not worth it, until the ignored (sorry Uncounterable) DD yolo charges and sinks the BB. 

Then BB player should feel that they come to the forum and say it's not fair......

I wouldn't bother, myself.  But I do think that this AP/DD thing was unnecessary and just a sop to the DD whiners.

Mind you, I'm more than willing to switch between HE and AP.  But 30 second reloads, IMO, make this AP/DD thing rather unfair to BB players, unless WG wants to give all BBs properly functioning secondaries across the board, commensurate with each BBs secondary battery, of course.

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2 hours ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

While I was in favor of the AP change vs DDs because the old counter was to make yourself easier to hit, I said from the get go that BBs will need some other form of defense against the DD rush. There are too many situations in game where the BB is not going to have enough backup to stop you and there is no counter. It's not even a suicide rush anymore because typically you will survive with a decent amount of health. I rushed 2 Musashis yesterday and they didn't even come close to killing me before I dumped 10 torpedos into one of them. I could have smoked up and rushed the other one if a radar cruiser hadn't showed up. It's often very easy to pull off in Clan battles and Ranked because of the smaller number of players.

From the other side here is a screenshot of me trying to fend off a DD rush in conditions that should have been very favorable to the BB. PEF vs Aigle , the PEF is at 95% health. Full secondary build with manual secondaries on a ship with exceptional secondaries for it's tier. In addition HE was already pre-loaded. I hit him with 10 350mm HE shells and 11 secondary hits for 16.5k. He dumped 110k worth of torpedos into me and he only has 6 torpedos. In the best case scenario for the BB the DD is able to do 700% more damage.

shot-19.01.11_21.38.37-0804.jpg

>95% HP at 19 minutes in in a BB
>8 HE hits for 1.3k, must have been aigle
>other 49k from torps
>Fired 35 HE shells over entire match, not a single AP shell

Have you perhaps considered the reason you got rushed and killed by the DD with the worst stealth in its tier is not because the DD is OP or without a counter, but because you positioned / played / planned extremely poorly and got punished for it? Post a replay and let the forums be the judge.

Aigle has AT BEST 6.8km concealment, and that's sub-optimal. As others have stated in the thread, shooting DDs when spotted is the best counter because most of them don't get a heal (until t9/10 or a select t8). Use some map awareness and set yourself up for success without becoming a detriment to your team (like only shooting HE for 10 minutes and taking nearly no damage because you either camped or hid, not playing to your ship strength).

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Pretty annoying when HE spamming cruisers aren’t doing their jobs so BB will also have to deal with DD.

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