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Seagrizzly

Well You got your Wish, CV Rework and AA

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I just played a round of my Lexi with tier 10 bots and man do you get shredded now.  Before I could do 60 to 100 k damage per match in her and now I managed 18k.  They buffed AA and seems now its very hard to do damage with a carrier.

 

Also played a Groz match with a aa spec and I shot down 10 planes without a single drop hitting me.

So we now swing the other way which is maybe what they want to find a happy middle ground but if the goal was to make it incredibly hard to do damage as a CV then they got it right.  I will grab a tier 10 CV and see what happens.

 

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1 minute ago, Seagrizzly said:

I just played a round of my Lexi with tier 10 bots and man do you get shredded now.  Before I could do 60 to 100 k damage per match in her and now I managed 18k.  They buffed AA and seems now its very hard to do damage with a carrier.

 

Also played a Groz match with a aa spec and I shot down 10 planes without a single drop hitting me.

So we now swing the other way which is maybe what they want to find a happy middle ground but if the goal was to make it incredibly hard to do damage as a CV then they got it right.  I will grab a tier 10 CV and see what happens.

I take it then that they just buffed AA damage way up.  The problems with just buffing AA damage are two-fold.

1)  It ignores the real issues -- no range boost (AFT, etc) and no overlap between the range bands (large AA stops firing at the max range of the medium AA mounts, etc). 

2)  It exacerbates the steep tier differences that already exist, making cross-tier carrier vs target matchups even more lopsided one way or the other. 

 

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1 minute ago, KilljoyCutter said:

I take it then that they just buffed AA damage way up.  The problems with just buffing AA damage are two-fold.

1)  It ignores the real issues -- no range boost (AFT, etc) and no overlap between the range bands (large AA stops firing at the max range of the medium AA mounts, etc). 

2)  It exacerbates the steep tier differences that already exist, making cross-tier carrier vs target matchups even more lopsided one way or the other. 

 

100% Agree on this.  Just starting a match in Hakuryu I will let you know how it goes.  Maybe need to adjust strat but in US CV getting in close is a death sentence.

 

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So 63k with the Hakuryu, not my best match but the only damage really came from Torp dropping at a distance at a lone bb at the end of the match.  I will say its much more fun now lots more flak to dodge and you can't just fly straight in and hit them hard or your planes are rip, but even facing a conq as the last boat he tore me up pretty good and I just got lucky and hit him with my last group with 4 torps but still didn't kill him.

 

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The CV vs AA balance is going to be very fluid for awhile. 

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3 minutes ago, paradat said:

The CV vs AA balance is going to be very fluid for awhile. 

IMO, it's fundamentally broken by the steep tier differences, and will be until that issue is addressed.  Have not been on the 2nd PTS yet today, but based on the 1st PTS, the following problem from the old system continues into the new system:

Sufficient AA against a tier 8 carrier completely nullifies a tier 6 carrier, while being largely useless against a tier 10 carrier. 

 

( * "Sufficient" being AA that does enough damage to make the first drop from a squadron easier to avoid by downing some of the aircraft, without completely erasing the attack by itself.) 

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5 minutes ago, paradat said:

The CV vs AA balance is going to be very fluid for awhile. 

Oh yea, did another match with Lexi and did 14k damage this round, spent most of the time trying to kill a Groz that was chasing down my carrier, every person in this forum that [edited] about how easy it is to kill things as a CV should try playing against a real player before they weigh in.  Its 100% different than playing bots and man it makes a difference.

In Lexi the Groz killed all but 2 of my bombers in one run so I got to drop 2 bombs near him and then back to carrier.  I like the way the flak works and I think its a fun way to keep the planes from just stomping things but the damage may need to be toned down, but the tier gap is going to make things really interesting.

 

 

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From a complete CV nub's perspective, after two games tier 4 on pts.

Its fun, the planes are squirrely, constantly over correcting and screwing up my approaches... Going to take a bit to get used to the different drops as some need to be started earlier or much later than you would think.

Also, I can't tell how badly my planes are shot up maybe the data is there, I just haven't seen it. It does feel silly to get shot out of the sky only to be rewarded with a batch a new planes taking off 1 second later.   More to come...

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2 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

IMO, it's fundamentally broken by the steep tier differences, and will be until that issue is addressed.  Have not been on the 2nd PTS yet today, but based on the 1st PTS, the following problem from the old system continues into the new system:

Sufficient AA against a tier 8 carrier completely nullifies a tier 6 carrier, while being largely useless against a tier 10 carrier. 

 

( * "Sufficient" being AA that does enough damage to make the first drop from a squadron easier to avoid by downing some of the aircraft, without completely erasing the attack by itself.) 

Yeah I do not expect that to change much. I am talking about the balance of same tier CV vs AA. Top vs bottom should land about where it is now eventually. 

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2 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

IMO, it's fundamentally broken by the steep tier differences, and will be until that issue is addressed.  Have not been on the 2nd PTS yet today, but based on the 1st PTS, the following problem from the old system continues into the new system:

Hear hear. This is the fundamental truth of carrier/AA balance in the current system. You can't balance across 5 tiers and AA builds/no-builds and ships with historically huge AA batteries and historically tiny ones.

AA was, is and seemingly always will be far too binary in outcome, and WG have not taken any imaginative steps toward fixing it.

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1 minute ago, Abides said:

From a complete CV nub's perspective, after two games tier 4 on pts.

Its fun, the planes are squirrely, constantly over correcting and screwing up my approaches... Going to take a bit to get used to the different drops as some need to be started earlier or much later than you would think.

Also, I can't tell how badly my planes are shot up maybe the data is there, I just haven't seen it. It does feel silly to get shot out of the sky only to be rewarded with a batch a new planes taking off 1 second later.   More to come...

 

Glad you like it, I find it very fun and now that you really had to watch out and slow and speed up for the flak bursts its even better, so you know on the bottom of your screen each plane has a damage indicator and they go from green to orange to red to dead!  So basically you can see how damaged your planes are.  Also bombers can heal because it looks like they will need it because they spend a lot of time in direct aa as they drop and there is no way to avoid once you start dropping so they added the heal to help keep you alive.

 

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2 minutes ago, paradat said:

Yeah I do not expect that to change much. I am talking about the balance of same tier CV vs AA. Top vs bottom should land about where it is now eventually. 

 

1 minute ago, mofton said:

Hear hear. This is the fundamental truth of carrier/AA balance in the current system. You can't balance across 5 tiers and AA builds/no-builds and ships with historically huge AA batteries and historically tiny ones.

AA was, is and seemingly always will be far too binary in outcome, and WG have not taken any imaginative steps toward fixing it.

 

If these issues are not going to fundamentally change, and carriers are going to be even-tier-only, then I think it's time to make carriers -1/+1 in matchmaker.

That way, carriers from different tiers won't face each other, and the range of ships that need to be balanced against any one tier of carriers will be far narrower.

 

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Personally it would be fun to have manual AA on the boats where you aim at the planes but maybe that is for a different game all together.  Imagine how much fun it would be to have a game like WOWS that plays like Sea of Thieves.  One guy drives, one runs aa one runs secondaries and one on main guns.  Would be fun that way.

 

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1 minute ago, KilljoyCutter said:

 

 

If these issues are not going to fundamentally change, and carriers are going to be even-tier-only, then I think it's time to make carriers -1/+1 in matchmaker.

That way, carriers from different tiers won't face each other, and the range of ships that need to be balanced against any one tier of carriers will be far narrower.

 

No need, a tier 6 cv will not face a tier 8 cv with out having a tier 8 cv on their team. 

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And we don't have time for another adjustment before it goes live.  That's...counterproductive.  AA needed a boost,  but not THAT much of a boost.  The goal is to make people play the class,  not chase them away by having them encounter Cleveland levels of AA.

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1 minute ago, KilljoyCutter said:

 

 

If these issues are not going to fundamentally change, and carriers are going to be even-tier-only, then I think it's time to make carriers -1/+1 in matchmaker.

That way, carriers from different tiers won't face each other, and the range of ships that need to be balanced against any one tier of carriers will be far narrower.

 

I like this, might make queue's long but this could be good.

 

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1 minute ago, Seagrizzly said:

Glad you like it, I find it very fun and now that you really had to watch out and slow and speed up for the flak bursts its even better, so you know on the bottom of your screen each plane has a damage indicator and they go from green to orange to red to dead!  So basically you can see how damaged your planes are.  Also bombers can heal because it looks like they will need it because they spend a lot of time in direct aa as they drop and there is no way to avoid once you start dropping so they added the heal to help keep you alive.

 

lols, I am so bad at flying these things... probably why I never got into flight simulator games..You are giving me way to much credit concerning flak bursts and speed changes.... I'm batting about 10% just on hitting a target in co op. Must runs so far I've screwed up my approach and lose planes and start over...

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1 minute ago, paradat said:

No need, a tier 6 cv will not face a tier 8 cv with out having a tier 8 cv on their team. 

But that isn't the issue, if the 8 is on the team he has a tremendous advantage over the 6 and the 6 will do zip in the new PTS because he will have to contend with higher tier AA and the 8 will have low tier AA and roll things.  Thus the issue.

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1 minute ago, Palladia said:

And we don't have time for another adjustment before it goes live.  That's...counterproductive.  AA needed a boost,  but not THAT much of a boost.  The goal is to make people play the class,  not chase them away by having them encounter Cleveland levels of AA.

Well you can count on this not being balanced on release. They need us to get there. We have new skills to explore and exploit or ignore. New Meta to work out. It is going to be the wild west for at least a couple of patches. 

Embrace it don't fight it. Get in there get messy try to break stuff.

cheers.

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3 minutes ago, Palladia said:

And we don't have time for another adjustment before it goes live.  That's...counterproductive.  AA needed a boost,  but not THAT much of a boost.  The goal is to make people play the class,  not chase them away by having them encounter Cleveland levels of AA.

Yea its going to change more and they even said it will change even more when it goes live, they will watch for a patch or two and figure out who is doing well in what and then adjust but there are some big gaps in the change all together with the even tier thing for sure.  But will have to wait and see how it all comes together.

 

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2 minutes ago, Seagrizzly said:

But that isn't the issue, if the 8 is on the team he has a tremendous advantage over the 6 and the 6 will do zip in the new PTS because he will have to contend with higher tier AA and the 8 will have low tier AA and roll things.  Thus the issue.

Yeah that issue will get mitigated over time but not eliminated. A tier 6 CV is crazy to attack a tier 8 AA cruiser. It is a team game not a duel.

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5 minutes ago, paradat said:

No need, a tier 6 cv will not face a tier 8 cv with out having a tier 8 cv on their team. 

Really?  Tier 6 ships don't face tier 8 ships?  Or is there already a special restriction for carriers in the rework?

And even without that part, the issue of balancing aircraft vs AA across fewer tiers still  stands. 

 

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2 minutes ago, paradat said:

Well you can count on this not being balanced on release. They need us to get there. We have new skills to explore and exploit or ignore. New Meta to work out. It is going to be the wild west for at least a couple of patches. 

Embrace it don't fight it. Get in there get messy try to break stuff.

cheers.

You're misunderstanding.  For one I DO test these things and I will be testing this later.  Heck,  check my posting history,  I have been touting that people needed to be patient and that even this adjustment wouldn't be perfect.   S'not about me,  its about the intended goal of getting more people to play CV's.  If this goes live and people hit that AA wall,  they aren't likely to find it fun,  and they aren't likely to keep playing.  Its counter productive to one of their stated goals if it goes live as it is now.  AA adjusting is important,  but it needed a fine tooth comb and not a sledgehammer.

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49 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

... and no overlap between the range bands (large AA stops firing at the max range of the medium AA mounts, etc). 

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but why is  that necessarily an issue? Whatever mechanics are present, it's expected results you're going for. What does it matter how you get there?

For example, let's say we start with a medium and long range band that are each 100 DPS. If they overlap, that's 100 DPS at long range, and 200 DPS at medium. If they don't overlap, and we simply buff medium to 200 DPS, what's the difference?

 

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Just now, KilljoyCutter said:

Really?  Tier 6 ships don't face tier 8 ships?  Or is there already a special restriction for carriers in the rework?

And even without that part, the issue of balancing aircraft vs AA across fewer tiers still  stands. 

 

Yes they do. But you assess the situation and play accordingly. That is not going to change. 

Yep the issue stands but the only thing missing is a mid tier experience (for now). 

If yo are a tier 6 CV in a tier 8 battle. Focus the targets you can be most effective on. Be a force multiplier for the higher tier CV on your team. Scout support... fear not. If you get jumped by the tier 8 do your best …. just like it is now for all classes. 

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