Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Summon3r

so radar?

53 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

101
[CWGC]
Members
823 posts
2,643 battles

i see a lot of comments about how  bad radar is for the game.

is this a pretty common theme throughout the community? the more i play the game the more i tend to think radar does not add any positive to the game at all.

ESPECIALLY considering it has mystical powers and is able to go through land.... lol?

  • Cool 5
  • Boring 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
2,694 posts
1,251 battles

Probably DD mains are saying that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
297
[TOAST]
Members
1,090 posts
9,230 battles

There are a bunch of things that are bad for this game. Some cases it's flat out bad for the game, other cases it's how they were implemented. Radar falls into one of those two. Which one of those it falls into will depend on who you ask.

Edited by Vekta408

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
787
[-ZF-]
Beta Testers
3,301 posts
4,930 battles

without radar smoke is bad for the game.... the issues are as you pointed out, you can use it behind islands, with no counter. And theres just so much of it.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
174
[AAA]
Members
508 posts
8,759 battles

I grinded all my DD lines (from tier 5is to tier to) in the past month and I was never bothered about radar even once (not that I was never killed by a radar). It is part of the game so everyone needs to learn it and play the game. Without radar DDs will run rampant (as I have done in many games) and they definitely need a counter. If a DD is getting repeatedly killed by radar ships then they are definitely not learning. Also try playing a radar ship and its not easy to master one. You would have to risk the radar ship, get into very aggressive positions to help support caps with the radar. 

If everything needs to be simple why play randoms? What is the fun in playing without challenges from multiple mechanics? 

PS- I am no DD main but I really enjoyed my DD grind so much that I am considering ditching my cruisers and play only DDs. Did I mention that my karma went from single digits to 30ish :)

Edited by sansfaille
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
537
[HC]
Beta Testers
2,205 posts
11,379 battles

For those that can't or won't figure out how to deal with it, it horribly game breaking, completely broken, ect... and some come to the forums and cry about it. 

For those that have figured out how to deal with it by thinking about escape routes, generally planning ahead, not over extending, ect ... it's usually not a big deal. You rarely hear from them.

For me, doesn't matter much.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
101
[CWGC]
Members
823 posts
2,643 battles
30 minutes ago, sansfaille said:

I grinded all my DD lines (from tier 5is to tier to) in the past month and I was never bothered about radar even once (not that I was never killed by a radar). It is part of the game so everyone needs to learn it and play the game. Without radar DDs will run rampant (as I have done in many games) and they definitely need a counter. If a DD is getting repeatedly killed by radar ships then they are definitely not learning. Also try playing a radar ship and its not easy to master one. You would have to risk the radar ship, get into very aggressive positions to help support caps with the radar. 

If everything needs to be simple why play randoms? What is the fun in playing without challenges from multiple mechanics? 

PS- I am no DD main but I really enjoyed my DD grind so much that I am considering ditching my cruisers and play only DDs. Did I mention that my karma went from single digits to 30ish :)

i dont particularly mind the idea of radar especially to counter the smoke-ageddon. what i do mind though is (and i guess this goes for smoke as well ) is how much of it there is.

tbh if it wasnt xray-radar i dont think id even have brought it up (sonar should not go through land masses either)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29
[RNG]
Members
43 posts
5,702 battles

Sonar is less of a problem because one of its main jobs is the detection of torpedoes, it is also much shorter range and therefore easier to escape.

The main thing to do is not to sit in smoke when there is a radar ship around. They love hitting you when you think you're safe. Keep moving, stay maneuverable, keep spotting, and don't give your position away till you are certain you can do some serious damage.

I do think radar needs to be reworked somewhat, it is definitely not helping DDs that already struggle to deal damage, but as long as we have as much smoke as we do in the game there needs to be something to counter it, but it does need a drawback. Perhaps using radar should increase your detection range, as many ships at that time were equipped with radio direction finding equipment which could locate the source of radiation. or perhaps radar detection should 'pulse' on and off as radars in real life had to rotate around in order to get a picture of everything. Or perhaps ships could be given the ability to deploy decoys that when radared or sonared show up as if it were your ship, but aren't actually there and get destroyed if they are hit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,212
[USCC2]
Members
4,937 posts

I believe radar was a good edition to the game. I don't even mind the current way it works, as it isn't as if it isn't well known!

My only problem was always going to be just how many there could be in a particular match - more and more there are 3+ ships with radar and I do believe this does stop DDs operating in the role they should play - with CV play coming back I am not sure whether this will make matters worse.

TLDR: Radar = variety, challenge = good addition to the game.....if managed correctly (numbers, not ability). :Smile_honoring:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
339
[WOLFX]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
1,006 posts
2,845 battles

There are 2 things I don't care for as far as radar goes, both having to do with lack of counterplay. 

First off it should not be able to see thru islands. That encourages radar ships to camp behind islands where they can safely radar caps without risking their ship to do so. I don't care for anything that encourages camping.

Second there is no dynamic counter. I think having a radar blocking consumable such as chaff availible would add a layer of counterplay to the game, especially if it were added as a choice the way some ships now choose between speed boost or defensive fire for instance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,056
[TDRB]
Members
3,153 posts
9,547 battles
6 hours ago, Summon3r said:

i see a lot of comments about how  bad radar is for the game.

is this a pretty common theme throughout the community? the more i play the game the more i tend to think radar does not add any positive to the game at all.

ESPECIALLY considering it has mystical powers and is able to go through land.... lol?

Yes, mainly DD mains have ranted & predicted the end of the world for DD's since radar was introduced. 

As far as whether or not it adds anything positive is only opinions, highly subjective opinion. This horse had been beaten to a bloody pulp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
22 posts
6,664 battles

I haven't played WoWs all that long, for the most part CAs and BBs. I only started playing DDs last summer (and not good, but trying to get good), so I have never played without radar. That said, DDs are my favorite ship class and for the life of me I can't understand the whining about radar. There are plenty of examples in this game where the physics are not realistic. Take DDs - the stealth characteristics and torpedo performance are completely unrealistic. To think that a destroyer could actually get within 6 km of another ship without being seen is absurd. The torp speeds are also ridiculous. In game a 60 knot torp covers 6 km in about 40 sec when it should take about 3 full minutes to reach that distance. Finally, very few WW2 destroyers carried more than one salvo of torpedoes. The ones that did carry more did not reload during battle, as the reload took hours to accomplish. Given all that I don't think the radar is much of an issue. FYI my win rate in DDs is much higher than for any other ship class.

Edited by Kenrod_Melrocity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
361 posts
137 battles

the problem is multi-fold.

1.) It goes through islands. It ignores a fundamental ruleset the rest of the game pretty much follows. Wargaming has been completely dishonest at every turn regarding fixing it to not go through islands.

2.) Its entire design is part of a double-standard. They got rid of OWSF because people were being shot and couldn't see the target to shoot back. But a Hard Counter (Radar) and more ships that can shoot OVER islands from BEHIND islands where they CANNOT be shot back is perfectly okay. lol

3.) Even at the time it was added to the game(Radar), DDs were the lowest performing ship type, just as they are now. They were never compensated, and we still wait for this to be corrected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
626
[TMS]
Members
2,744 posts
27,124 battles
6 minutes ago, KnyxUDL said:

the problem is multi-fold.

1.) It goes through islands. It ignores a fundamental ruleset the rest of the game pretty much follows. Wargaming has been completely dishonest at every turn regarding fixing it to not go through islands.

2.) Its entire design is part of a double-standard. They got rid of OWSF because people were being shot and couldn't see the target to shoot back. But a Hard Counter (Radar) and more ships that can shoot OVER islands from BEHIND islands where they CANNOT be shot back is perfectly okay. lol

3.) Even at the time it was added to the game(Radar), DDs were the lowest performing ship type, just as they are now. They were never compensated, and we still wait for this to be corrected.

Plus cyclone and storm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
22 posts
6,664 battles

"3.) Even at the time it was added to the game(Radar), DDs were the lowest performing ship type, just as they are now. They were never compensated, and we still wait for this to be corrected."

 

I don't think so. DDs appear to have >50% win rate at every tier above V, and their win rate is above the overall average for 5 out of 6 tiers across all ship types. Maybe it depends on what you mean by "performing"?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
943
[SIDE]
Members
2,551 posts

An entire herd of horse corpses have been beaten over this. Really no reason to build a new thread. It’s futile. This one will join the 98 other radar whine posts in the dumpster thread. Go there now. Tons of information about how several dd mains actually saw there lifetime  stats improve during the “radarpocolypse” once they incorporated some simple workarounds and adaptations to the way they played. Bottom line was you can’t play high tier dd like you did in low tiers. There are 2 concealment distance values you need to remember; your visual and reds radar. Based on radar ship position via minimap you can decide how froggy you want to play your torpedo spreads and dispersion. The island ambush gotcha maneuver doesn’t really work anymore so you need to learn some new skills, keep eyes glued to minimap, memorize ships with radar, memorize radar ranges and durations, and be way more patient throughout the match.

Edited by thebigblue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
361 posts
137 battles
34 minutes ago, Kenrod_Melrocity said:

"3.) Even at the time it was added to the game(Radar), DDs were the lowest performing ship type, just as they are now. They were never compensated, and we still wait for this to be corrected."

 

I don't think so. DDs appear to have >50% win rate at every tier above V, and their win rate is above the overall average for 5 out of 6 tiers across all ship types. Maybe it depends on what you mean by "performing"?

 

 

Win rate is NOT a performance metric, nor can balance conclusions be drawn from it. In WoWs, it has an unquantifiable amount of dependencies, of which even their weight cannot be measured (maybe with a NASA super computer it can, idk). The performance of the individual variable in question or which the balance conclusions are being drawn, does not even hold majority weight as to the outcome and effect. Furthermore, this holds true inversely. Disregarding Wargaming in this because they essentially ignore the data, if something is objectively deemed overpowered how is it addressed? The specific source that DIRECTLY relates to said over performing metric is altered.  Feel free to cite a single patch note in ANY game that claims to have Nerfed/Buffed "Win rate".  You can't. Just as you can go into a match AFK in your Shima and still have a good enough chance for the outcome to result in a win. Again, because the weight of your ships ACTUAL performance is less than average in weight for the effect on Winning/Losing. This weight is even lessened when your ship is underpowered.

What are the normal match structures we see to this day?
Mostly BBs, CAs, and very few DDs in comparison.   Well if BBs are mostly overpowered, and CAs are mostly balanced, and DDs are mostly weak..... if you have a AFK DD..... or a DD that doesn't really do much... doesn't get any kills...do much damage... the IMPACT is far less than if it was a BB that was afk... or not actually doing anything. Therefore Win rate is even further devalued.  Another example of something that also devalue Win rate? Lack of controlled environment (No Skill based/Swap MM). There are dozens of examples.

Performance metrics are Average Damage per match, Kills per match, potential (tanked) damage per match, XP per match, MBH (accuracy), Survival rate. You can't make a claim that DDs are meant to be weak in those departments because of some naïve claim about "meh support ship", nor can you make the claim about Caps, because it is about weight and impact on outcome. If a ship type is meant to be neutered in one area to prop up its ability to perform that non combative role, then Capping ALONE should offer MORE weight in match outcome than combative roles, it is a game after all. This would mean CAPPING and control points would need to be the ONLY effect on match points, not killing, not deaths (notice how match points change when someone dies?). Additionally, even the weight of ship performance and that support role doesn't hold up. If a Cruiser pushes into a cap where a DD is present, the Cruiser has the advantage regardless, and Cruisers can still cap points. If a BB pushes into a cap where a DD/Cruiser is present. The BB still holds the advantage, and BBs can still cap points.


 

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,421 posts
85 battles
10 minutes ago, KnyxUDL said:

Win rate is NOT a performance metric, nor can balance conclusions be drawn from it.

That's the biggest [edited] I've ever heard.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
361 posts
137 battles
1 minute ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

That's the biggest [edited] I've ever heard.

Just because it is well beyond your level of understanding, does not make it incorrect. People fear what they don't understand, and your small little one sentence response offers evidence to such.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,357
[H_]
Members
2,704 posts
12,373 battles
3 hours ago, dechion said:

There are 2 things I don't care for as far as radar goes, both having to do with lack of counterplay. 

First off it should not be able to see thru islands. That encourages radar ships to camp behind islands where they can safely radar caps without risking their ship to do so. I don't care for anything that encourages camping.

Second there is no dynamic counter. I think having a radar blocking consumable such as chaff availible would add a layer of counterplay to the game, especially if it were added as a choice the way some ships now choose between speed boost or defensive fire for instance.

This is simple:  we as a game, have lost population to radar....  HE spam has a counter.  Radar does not.  There is no mitigation against the all seeing eye !  Once it is on, everyone is seen with 100% precision and even if you were playing smart, the game is over when the 11K radar out distances you guns and most importantly, your torpedoes....  You can't shoot from beyond the radar coverage so why are you there?  There are scant points in spotting?

Good grief guys.  The pro-Radar CPT's are the crew that "farm using a no skill tool"....  Smoke has a solid counter.......it's not fool proof and everything goes through smoke and can kill !   Radar is a no skill game damage multiplier.....

What has been destroyed are the traditional roles of the WW2 DD:  scouting danger close to the enemy....  Taking your shot, if you have an opportunity and running like heck....  Now, you see DD's trolling just outside of the caps and the enemy waiting for them behind Islands to trip the radar dome.....  Put 4 radar ships in a game and you have well over 6 minutes of cap coverage what the good guys can't do a single thing against.....  Them with the most radar ships wins and that is why we have stopped playing random's.....  And, several have left the game: some permanently and a lot are retired until radar has a hard counter.  Ever seem a division of three tier 7 radar ships in a tier 5 random?  Game after game after game slaughters.  Ever see a tier 10 match without radar?  Ranked at tier 7 and up without radar?   Nope, I parked the 5.4 detect DD because it "just isn't value-added" anymore because radar is a no skill hard counter to stealth.  And, to make matters even worse, radar can out distance the max firing range of torps..........so, why play a DD when there is so little value to be made in a game????  Not cost effective nor, more importantly, fun.   And, to the haters, we took hunter killer radar mounted Cruisers divisions out to test the effectiveness of "trapping radar coverage's": where you intentionally combine cruisers that can overlap coverage distances and put pauses in between active on periods........a massacre event it be !  "It's safe !!!  Boom, got ya !  Bad, DD....."  Take that into tier 5 and ...............

No, radar is a gimmick that has ruined the game since it has no "hard counter" to it.   Give the DD's a ARM launcher that replaces a gun turret and that has a 12K range and a 80% first round hit percentage (radar must be active on) and then, let's see what radar ships do or how the game evolves back to where it was before the cruiser line split.........and, a few players might just come back!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,172
[WOLFG]
Members
24,123 posts
6,057 battles
1 hour ago, thebigblue said:

An entire herd of horse corpses have been beaten over this. Really no reason to build a new thread. 

Perhaps DD mains are scared that the CV rework threads will push the battle vs. radar into obscurity.....:Smile_trollface:

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,215
[OO7]
Members
5,636 posts
12,386 battles

If radar didn't exist, I believe it would lead to more disparity between the elite players and the rest of the player base as an elite dd player would be able to rule a cap with no fear of a counter. This would lead to more steam rolls. 

Most good players I know don't really complain about radar as a mechanic. They under stand how it works, how it can be used for them and against them and play around it. 

Why is it radars fault that a trash dd player dives into the middle of a cap, gets spotted, pops smoke, sits there and dies. A dd player that is that reckless will die regardless of radar. 

Edited by Ducky_shot
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,172
[WOLFG]
Members
24,123 posts
6,057 battles
18 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

  Put 4 radar ships in a game and you have well over 6 minutes of cap coverage what the good guys can't do a single thing

Here's the thing. You have 14 other minutes to work with. If you get the CAs chaining radar, you go to another cap. If you get lit, you run directly away from the radar ship. If you can't see him, run away from the most likely island. (he can't chase you from behind an island)

Now yes, the radar ship can hold off on radar until you get closer, but to do that, he has to know you're there. If he's in the open, you'll spot him before you even get into radar range. (no ship has a radar range greater than its concealment anymore) If he's behind an island, you can't spot him, so how does he know you're there?

Quote

 Ever seem a division of three tier 7 radar ships in a tier 5 random?  Game after game after game slaughters.

If you're seeing a 3-ship div of Atlantas/Indianapoli, game after game, then it's you who's running it, because I've only seen it twice.

Quote

so, why play a DD when there is so little value to be made in a game???? 

Because, as I'm finding out, it's hella fun!

Edited by Skpstr
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,967
[WOLFG]
Members
6,499 posts
4,397 battles
14 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Perhaps DD mains are scared that the CV rework threads will push the battle vs. radar into obscurity.....:Smile_trollface:

Image result for To the barricadesmeme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×