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Hatsuharu - Is she a worse Fubuki?

Which IJN Tier VI DD is better?  

29 members have voted

  1. 1. Hatsuharu or Fubuki?

    • Hatsuharu
      14
    • Fubuki
      11
    • Neither
      4

28 comments in this topic

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Hatsuharu: the Tier VI IJN destroyer in the IJN "gunboat" line. Featuring:

  • 11,700 base HP
  • Six (2x3) 610mm torpedoes with a range of 10km base at 59 kts and alpha of 16,200 HP
  • Four (2x2) 127mm guns with a reload time of 7.5s, range of 10.8km, and initial shell velocity of 915m/s
  • 36.5kt base maximum speed, 2.3s base rudder shift time, and 580m turning radius
  • Base 6.66km surface detection and 3.51km air detection

She seems rather inferior to her Tier VI "torpedo boat" counterpart Fubuki, which features:

  • 12,900 base HP
  • 9 (3x3) 610mm torpedoes with a range of 10km base at 59 kts and alpha of 16,200 HP
  • Four (2x2) 127mm guns with a reload time of 8s, range of 11.5km, and initial shell velocity of 915m/s
  • 35kt base maximum speed, 2.5s base rudder shift time, and 640m turning radius
  • Base 7.02km surface detection and 3.78km air detection

Similar maneuverability, main batteries, and torpedo aspects between the two. However, there is a major difference in the torpedo armament between the two, in that Fubuki has one more triple tube set. Notice that both have the same reload (for each triple), range, speed, and damage potential . But what also sets them apart is their concealment - Hatsuharu has better base  surface detection by 0.36km, which is somewhat significant. But what about the difference when factoring in Concealment Expert and camouflage? It's actually still very much the same - 6.13km full concealment for Fubuki vs 5.81km full concealment for Hatsuharu - 0.314km difference. But what's the point of concealment for these ships at this Tier?

Concealment allows destroyers to get as close to their enemy targets as possible without being detected before firing their torpedoes at said target. This also allows them to spot other enemy destroyers provided they have better concealment than their foe and can keep their distance from said enemy destroyer to spot them undetected. E.g. enemy Fubuki doesn't have concealment (7km detection) but Hatsuharu does (5.8km detection), and Hatsuharu stays between 5.8km and 7km from Fubuki.

Now what is the time it takes for these torpedoes to reach a target at 10km? Well, it turns out to be 68.2s. What does that mean? Well it means that 59 kts roughly translates to 0.1466km/s. If you go use the google conversion calculator, it'll tell you 59kts = 30.35 m/s (or 0.03035km/s) - this is the wrong number to use for the game. This is due to the compression of the game (see forum thread here, also technically the calculation in the link would yield 0.1587km/s for 59 kts). Now let's translate that to ideal ranges that Hatsuharu and Fubuki will fire their torpedoes at with full concealment (for simplicities' sake we'll just do +0.3km from their detection).

 

A target 6.43km from Fubuki will require approximately 43.86 seconds for the torpedoes to reach. 

A target 6.11km from Hatsuharu will require approximately 41.68 seconds for the torpedoes to reach.

 

The difference in time for the torpedoes is negligible. Now what about the torpedo area coverage? 

image.thumb.png.55cc529e9a4b5a240f562d3aa2dc0774.png

The distance between the center of my ship and GK is about 0.3km from her stern. Using that approximation, we can conclude that GK is approximately 0.6km-0.7km in length. Now with aiming the torpedoes.

image.thumb.png.3d56f7ae82c990da46b62e8fc00faeb0.png

At 10km, the thin spread width barely covers the entirety of GK. Additionally, using the same approximation based on my position to the GK, this means that the coverage of a triple tube at 10km is approximately 700m. Giving each tube set the same distance between their torpedoes and assuming ideal firing coverage (approximately 0.35km left-center and center-right), this adds up to an approximation of 1.75km coverage at 10km for Hatsuharu. How did I get this number?

Taking 6 torpedoes, there would be 5 gaps total (# of torpedoes - 1 = # of gaps). 0.35km x 5 gaps = 1.75km.

Applying this to Fubuki's 9 torpedoes, she has a far better area coverage of approximately 2.8km, 1.05km larger coverage than Hatsuharu. This also means that Fubuki has a higher chance of hitting her target, should the target vary in speed based on rudder shift or speed change. 

 

So, just by having one more triple, Fubuki should have a higher average damage (on server average) right? Wrong.

image.thumb.png.e88c48e58534fa45a32ccd8e18050415.png - NA

image.thumb.png.20dab5f14bbc5bca01646550e7055440.png - EU

image.thumb.png.43bfe0b2a47b51cf6d32a19f68b9ea3e.png - ASIA

image.thumb.png.10a111864df2f0d8769fd6949926474e.png - RU

Across all servers, the average damage and win rate for Hatsuharu is higher than Fubuki. (Although one could say that the sample size difference is quite large and this comparison is inane.) Thus so far, it seems that they either are on equal footing or Fubuki might need a buff. Although I'd like to incline that Hatsuharu would need it more based on her lower potential "damage per minute" than Fubuki.

Thoughts?

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If anything, I wish Hatsuharu had a slight RoF buff to make her feel a little more like a gunboat and somewhat reinforce the endgoal of the line.

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I prefer the Hatsu due to the better concealment.  With the poor ROF guns, out-spotting enemy DD’s is life.  Used the Hatsu very successfully in Ranked Sprint to rank 1.  I struggled in the few matches I tried the Fubuki.

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Go team Shinonome :Smile_izmena:.

On a more serious note, have played Hatsu quite recently, I felt the lack of the third launcher that Fubuki can use or reserve dearly.

Since Hatsu and Shira are on the "gunboat " line, maybe they should get a bit higher rof and turret traverse. This would meld nicely with the recent buffs to the 127mm HE.

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Hatsu all the way.  Better concealment.  Better speed and agility. 

What ship do i play when a tier 6 Ranked opportunity comes my way?   Hatsu mostly, with a sprinkling of Farragut.  Fubuki never makes it out of port for competitive play.

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With the way the IJN DD's work, Fubuki is the better ship. Having that third launcher makes all the difference. If you're trying to use either one as a gunboat, you're doing it wrong. The only things Hatsu has going for her are actually negligible, due to the fact that they're both IJN DD's: Her speed, and concealment. She has less possible alpha strike, and less HP, and that slight difference in speed and concealment doesn't mask those things.

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Stats don't lie. Hatsuharu beats Fubuki in average win rate, average kills per game, and average damage. 

I think that whilst Fubuki may have the extra launcher, Hatsuharu is probably having the easier time getting her torps on target using her better stealth, speed, and maneuverability. 

TBH though, players should ditch both of them once they can get a Shinonome, Gallant, or T-61.

 

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27 minutes ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

Stats don't lie. Hatsuharu beats Fubuki in average win rate, average kills per game, and average damage. 

I think that whilst Fubuki may have the extra launcher, Hatsuharu is probably having the easier time getting her torps on target using her better stealth, speed, and maneuverability. 

 

This mirrors my experience in Hatsuharu as well. I found it easier to consistently land torpedo strikes on enemy ships, likely due to her higher base speed and lower concealment(and I think Hatsu is more agile as well and has better torpedo firing arcs) despite only having two triple launchers, compared to Fubuki. When I ground through the Fubuki, I used TA simply because her 6.1km concealment with a concealment build didn't allow her to get all that close to targets to launch from stealth with the relatively slow torpedoes. In Hatsuharu, I didn't feel the need to take TA, and I suspect that it's because of her concealment and speed allowing her to get closer to her targets before launching from stealth.

On a slightly related note, I still think WG should make and release a premium Hatsuharu-class, Nenohi in the as-built configuration of the Hatsuharu's.

Edited by GhostSwordsman

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Concealment is the be all and end all stat for IJN DDs.

As a result Hatsu is simply better equipped to fill the torp boat functions regardless of having one less launcher.

 

 

 

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I haven't played them much since the IJN line split, I was past them already, but from what games I have played in them,

Hatsuharu is a hair stealthier, slightly more maneuverable, slightly faster, and slightly shorter in length. If I'm stuck messing around caps and islands in a tier 6 IJN DD, I'll gladly lose the torp launcher to be less likely to swing the stern into an island while having to bail out of a cap. 

If I'm not having to mess around in a confined area like a cap or islands and can play the longer ranged torp game against radar cruisers, Fubuki is better, the extra torps make up some for having to launch from further away.

Which is better? It's a coin toss based on whatever Match Maker dumps on me. Which means there's plenty of better destroyers to cap when I'm in the Hatsuharu, and I'm stuck messing with caps and islands with the Fubuki.

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So far, I've found it funny that most who replied here seem to prefer Hatsuharu over Fubuki yet the poll shows that majority who voted prefer Fubuki over Hatsuharu (including myself).

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There is a reason why I put a 19 point captain on my Hatsuharu and not on Fubuki. Hatsuharu is the real deal, not even close.

To sum up the damage difference Hatsuharu gets in closer, faster, and safer than Fubuki. Hatsuharu is one of the hardest to hit DDs at this tier when it is discovered. Fubuki might have more torps but is weaker playing the scout role.

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai
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4 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

Go team Shinonome :Smile_izmena:.

On a more serious note, have played Hatsu quite recently, I felt the lack of the third launcher that Fubuki can use or reserve dearly.

Since Hatsu and Shira are on the "gunboat " line, maybe they should get a bit higher rof and turret traverse. This would meld nicely with the recent buffs to the 127mm HE.

The dispersion on Fubuki is nothing like what I get on Hatsuharu. That alone makes a big difference.

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Hatsuharu for me, for the simple reason that it's faster and stealthier. I have had way more luck actually landing torpedoes with Hatsuharu despite the fact it's down three tubes. Positioning matters, and Hatsuharu is superior at getting into (and staying in) good positions, as well as getting out of trouble when it does inevitably find you. If I'm running IJN destroyers, it's because I want to be playing the stealth bastard torpedo boat and scout role, and Hatsuharu is better at both of those things than Fubuki is.

--Helms

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Wow, I honestly figured that I would be in the minority for liking Hatsuharu over Fubuki. But I'll take it one further: I just can't get Fubuki to work. Now granted I'm not a destroyer main by any stretch, I'm a cruiser main. That being said where Hatsuharu felt like a torpedo-leaning hybrid dream of a boat while I was grinding her, Fubuki just feels off in every way. It's like going from driving a well-tuned automatic to having to struggle your way through a stick-shift that you kind of know how to drive but have virtually no experience with. I can't land the torps, I keep getting spotted, I can't evade in time; the whole ship just handles terribly and clunkily in my hands. And it's a shame because I would love to get to the Kagero at least one day. I like my Harekaze and LOVE my Akizuki and Kitakaze to death. But that's probably where the problem lies: I like gunboats, and Fubuki and company are as far removed from that concept as possible.

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It's not just you. Hatsu's a better boat. But power through Fubuki in the tier 6 ops, because it's worth getting past it. Honestly, Akatsuki is better, tier for tier, than Fubuki is, despite the unwieldy concealment, because it's fast and thus can position to advantage in a lot of situations where Fubuki struggles to do likewise.

I honestly never understood why Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu are in the Akizuki line when they're better torpedo boats than their counterparts, while Fubuki and Akatsuki would ostensibly make better hybrids and yet they're in the torpedo boat line.

--Helms

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I have both of them right now, 13 point captain in Hatsu and 10 pointer in Fubuki. Enjoying them both, trying to see which line I want to go further in. Averaging between 22 and 23K damage in both right now. WRs in the 50%-60% range, so very playable. No radar ships encountered yet. Not common to see Chappy or Cleveland in these battles.

Edited by Ericson38

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On 1/18/2019 at 2:48 AM, thehelmsman said:

I honestly never understood why Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu are in the Akizuki line when they're better torpedo boats than their counterparts, while Fubuki and Akatsuki would ostensibly make better hybrids and yet they're in the torpedo boat line.

Thought this myself. With only four (or 5) relatively slow firing guns in slow turrets, does anything say "gunboat" about either of them. Most common Shiratsuyu build forgoes smoke (a gunboat staple) for TRB (a torpedo boat staple) (yearn for the good-old-days when I didn't have to choose). Shooting guns means you are seen and you rarely want that. Very strange for a gunboat. I think WG started referring to it as the Alternate Line, but the gunboat moniker has stuck since it ends in the ultimate gunboat(s). You can't move your captain up the line (after Shira) without a complete respec so a somewhat disjointed line just like the US cruiser line was before the split.

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Not gunboats, but I almost never shoot guns with these two silent stalkers. I can't believe my stats in them: total of 57 combined battles, win rate between 59-63%, right at 23K damage per battle. When I do fire the guns, they instantly set a fire on almost anything. Wish my Helena did that. Its like the Minekazi concept is still at WoW, just up at T6. MM does not bother me, because the detection ranges are low, and the torps range's are 10km, and reloads are quick. Just no cap gun contests. Leave that for the Farragut and Jervis.

 

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I got the Hatsu from the campaign thingy. Playing Shinonome and Fubuki I have to say the Hatsu was far more comfortable from the start than fubuki/shin has ever felt. I was very surprised and quite pleased. Since I got perma camo for it now I might as well keep and enjoy it.

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Forget what I said....now at T7, and Shira up against T9 DDs in caps all the time, so damage lately has been about 3-5K per game. So losing credits with it. Fubuki at T6 still somewhat fun to play, but not Hatsu follow on Shira. Torp reload boost not that great, no protection without it. Kitakazi is a cutting torch, and Jutland smiles when it encounters you. Fubuki in T6-8 battles now, so the MM honeymoon is officially over.

Edited by Ericson38

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Somebody used "comfortable" to describe the Hatsuharu.  Specs suggest the Fubuki should be more powerful with a third launcher and 50% more torps, but the Hatsuharu seems much more comfortable to play.  The only times I feel overpowered by opponents are when Tier VIII RN DDs with Concealment Mod are able to substantially penetrate the Hatsuharu's concealment and unleash a torrent of rapid gunfire.  Most of the time, the RN DDs are not a huge problem, but head-on encounters with a high rate of closure often make escaping very difficult with only a 0.5km speed advantage.

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Fubuki honestly was much more comfortable to play before its concealment advantage over its counterparts was eroded by the likes of Fushun, T-61, Icarus, and even Monaghan, which, while it can't match Fubuki's 6.1km, gets pretty close. And that's to say nothing of higher tiers like Gadjah, Haida, Z-39, Lightning, and Cossack. Now it's got middling detectability for the tier and doesn't have speed, agility, or gun power to compensate for it. Hatsu still has best-in-tier concealment that rivals most tier 8s and also has an extra knot of speed, plus it's way more nimble.

--Helms

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Realistically, the loss of the 3rd torpedo launcher means that the Hatsuharu is significantly less effective than the Fubuki on the offensive, when facing T5 and T6 opponents.

However, when forced to face T7 and particular T8 DD opponents, the Hatsuharu's ability to be both slightly more stealthy AND to run from danger makes is the more survivable ship. 

If you're in a Fubuki, just hope there's no T7 or T8 DDs which are faster and can outspot you. If there aren't, or you can avoid them in situations where you can't dominate them, then you'll do consistently better damage than the Hatsu.  The Fubu also has problems with T8 cruisers, as the radar and, in particular, speed is a real threat. But it deals comfortably with all BBs, and the T5-7 cruisers, for the most part.

Hatsu is more survivable, but it's much less effective - you have the same issues landing torpedoes as the Fubu, but have a third less to hit with. The guns simply don't make up for the difference, and it's not like you really want to get closer to the target. In both, you're still launching at the 7km or so range - it's not like the Hatsu consistently launches a km or more closer, so there's virtually no difference in ability to hit, just fewer torps to hit with.

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On 1/23/2019 at 2:17 AM, Vekta408 said:

I got the Hatsu from the campaign thingy. Playing Shinonome and Fubuki I have to say the Hatsu was far more comfortable from the start than fubuki/shin has ever felt. I was very surprised and quite pleased. Since I got perma camo for it now I might as well keep and enjoy it.

Same here. Pleasantly surprised since it has been a long time since I played it. She's a keeper. Fubuki while not bad, is lonnng gone.

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