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Why the Carrier Rework will fail no matter what.

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I already know my solution, I have been preparing already to make full use of my new anti reworked CVs weapons... Submarines 

Free XP, Credits, Spare Captains, Elite Captain XP, and port slots are ready to fight back against the new problem just as soon as the subs arrive this year.

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Heresy! Treason!

It is the sacred duty of every BB, CA, CL, and DD player to waste hours and hours being the guinea pig targets so the zoomies can zoom-zoom.

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I wonder what removing manual drops/strafes would have done.

Seems like that would have had a huge positive game impact on the balance of CVs at least.

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11 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

You will still get that sinking feeling of seeing planes pop up on your viewfinder and know that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the first strike, and maybe not even 2.

Indeed.

12 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

it's always amusing to see a normal player get picked on, deleted or just have their game experience ruined by that cv and to say "oh man I sure can't wait for the rework". Nothing is more sad than the naivete of that comment, because nothing will get better. Your experience in other ships will in fact worsen to the increased population, much like it is now before the patch hits.

Quite.

13 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

This will be a dark and annoying quarter of 2019 for ships, born of WGs refusal to cut their losses and instead devote a year or more of resources to implement a new gameplay style that does not and can not address the fundamental problem that is a gameplay style of power with impunity results in bad experiences. I remember long ago when someone let us guess what the rework could possibly be, all the while getting a no/not even close to all our guesses. They weren't kidding, nobody could see this coming, because now instead of one cv in the game having the ability to hit whoever while he holds the other cvs hands behind his back, now both cvs are free of eachother and can lord over everything in a match. instead of a fighter counter, a damage race.

I almost used the f word, how absolutely .. depressingly true/ At least with the old RTS, my CV would exhaust its reserves, or at least, run them ragged.

14 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

Do yourself a favor. Take a break from WoWs. Find another game to idle your time with while WG tries desperately to rebalance new cv gameplay in a live server, and toss out all their old 'progress' of 3 years out the window.

Excellent advice.

There will be months of ups and downs as WOWS gameplay undergoes quite a revolution, much salt, much wasted players time. At least 3 patch cycles, but I suspect, the entire year will be dominated by ongoing CV related development to balance matters out.

Spoiler

I disagree with the basic premise, that CVs have no place in WOWS, but not with many of the details of your argument Puli/ 

All in all, quality post.

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9 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

 

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TL;DR rework fails not because it doesn't increase people playing or the accessibility, it fails because of the negative effect cvs have on games they are in innately. They force campy games and ruin the 3 class triangle. They are massive harassment damage that you can't fight back against. The rework fails because by increasing the people playing them, they also increase the games occupied by the other 20-22 players that are ruined.

 

After playing ~4 games with Lexington on the PTS, I can assure you that in tier 8 at least, CVs do not have the capability to deal "massive harassment damage"

Against destroyers, the torpedoes are extremely weak. Even bots were able to easily dodge the water mines. Bombs are also extremely inaccurate. 3 bombing runs over the DD gave me exactly 1 hit. Rockets are the only way to reliably deal damage, and they "only" deal 2-3 k damage over 3 well-aimed attack runs, in addition to crippling modules and lighting fires. That's actually quite significant, but it's not massive damage by any means, especially compared to now, when tier 8 CVs could cross-drop destroyers and get at least 1 guaranteed torpedo hit for 10k damage. And mind you, I was playing against bots.

 

Against battleships, both bombs and torpedoes deal reliable damage, but battleship AA is somewhat effective against my planes. Bombs deal about 3 k per dive bombing run, but even a single BB could shoot down enough planes that the squadron is destroyed after I take the second dive. Once, 3 Richlieus bots gathered within 5 km of each other. When I attempted to attack any one, I would lose half of my bombers in the first dive, and the rest dies when I turn around to make a second dive. After losing the squad, it took about 3 minutes to regen back to half strength.

Also, torpedoes only deal around 4k damage each, and chance for flooding is extremely low against BBs. I got 5 hits and no floods.

Tl;dr Tier 8 CVs no longer have massive damage potential

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I disagree, sure many of the points you brought up may be true but the way I see the impact the reworked CV has on a match has been lowered, and as such the “negativity” some players perceive when in a CV match will be drastically lowered; sure new tactics will arise by both surface and air combatants... and we will adapt... just like with all the previous apocalypses.

And as for campy games, those do exist currently even with no CVs in a match...

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The direction of the rework did catch us all by surprise. While the old system was flawed, WG never put in the effort to fine tune CV's, AA power levels, or even fix the UI bugs that have been plaguing us from Alpha time. They gave us an RTS system that distinctly felt like it was from some early 90's RTS at its best, unplayable at its worst. The old RTS mechanics were rushed... from what I've seen, the new mechanics are also being rushed. My final judgement on whether it will be successful how much WG corrects the imbalances and the still present UI glitches once it hits live and by patch 8.1.

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27 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

With the rework looming ever closer, I thought it would be fun to dash any hopes of the rework actually improving the game for whomever reads this. It's not because it doesn't address a few problems with the old, or because it introduces new problems that the old didn't have. It's because Carrier gameplay is the complete antithesis of how most ships work in the game, and no matter how you try to rework them it will never change. What makes them so unfit to be in a game based on ships in an era where their dominance was most prevalent? First lets discuss why the old CVs do not fit.

As a note, this is mostly addressing random and ranked battles, and not the higher skill matches of clan battles/tournaments. In those, CVs are actually a good fit, even though it's only if every ship is either specialized for AA or suffering the consequences.

Old CVs are an RTS without the busywork of base building etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with RTS gameplay, it can be very fun and it pushes your awareness and reflexes to the limit. However the RTS of CV is a complete failure in WoWs for 3 reasons.

  • A highly reactive, awareness driven and reflexive gameplay does not mesh well with the slower, methodical and long term positional gameplay of the rest of the game.
  • There is no skill based matchmaking (random/ranked) that is pivotal to RTS gameplay. This creates harsh games where one CV player is completely outclassed by another, and essentially locked down from having any real effect on the battle while the other goes on a rampage.
  • The presence of a CV, and it's strength, reduces a lot of options other classes have, such as concealment, flanking, being aggressive etc. A CV usually forces a much more campy, reserved game along with the moans and groans of the players subject to it whether spoken or unspoken.

And there really is no debate that old CV is a complete failure in the game. WG struggled trying to balance a class that was meant to have power based on it's real world era effect, but not so powerful that it ruined the experience for other players. Absolute fail on all fronts, from removed manual drops from low tier and stupidly strong high tier with strafes allowing good cvs to dominate weak ones, with some AP bombs that do well in defensive fire because F players.

So, what will the rework change? Essentially 3 things. It removes most of the effect of cv vs cv, at least in terms of fighters. There is still some potential with cv sniping maybe. It reduces the awareness and reflexes needed to play, and it will increase the player count because it will be much easier, and it is. Unfortunately this is actually bad for the game because of aforementioned problems. You will still get that sinking feeling of seeing planes pop up on your viewfinder and know that there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the first strike, and maybe not even 2. They will still force campy games simply because they exist, and low tier will still be hamstrung trash in how ineffectual you can be.

And the best part is the more accessible gameplay will result in more games being subject to the forced campy playstyle by a ship with inexhaustible resources in which the only way to fight back is to hopefully not be the one he decides to pick on. Because make no mistake, if that CV wants you dead you are dead. With so many players jumping into their cvs in the hopes to cash in on the fxp when the patch hits, it's always amusing to see a normal player get picked on, deleted or just have their game experience ruined by that cv and to say "oh man I sure can't wait for the rework". Nothing is more sad than the naivete of that comment, because nothing will get better. Your experience in other ships will in fact worsen to the increased population, much like it is now before the patch hits. That is why the rework will fail, not because of the potential for players to enjoy the new gameplay of carriers, but because of the negative impact cvs will have on other ships, always, simply by existing in any form. They are a detriment to the balance of the 3 class triangle.

This will be a dark and annoying quarter of 2019 for ships, born of WGs refusal to cut their losses and instead devote a year or more of resources to implement a new gameplay style that does not and can not address the fundamental problem that is a gameplay style of power with impunity results in bad experiences. I remember long ago when someone let us guess what the rework could possibly be, all the while getting a no/not even close to all our guesses. They weren't kidding, nobody could see this coming, because now instead of one cv in the game having the ability to hit whoever while he holds the other cvs hands behind his back, now both cvs are free of eachother and can lord over everything in a match. instead of a fighter counter, a damage race. No bad positioning mistakes to be had like with other classes, that have to take a lot of time to re position in hopes to be effective. Just turn a few times and drop away. Whats that, the last 2 strikes of your group got shot down? That's fine, just fire up another and be right back there within 30-40 seconds.

Do yourself a favor. Take a break from WoWs. Find another game to idle your time with while WG tries desperately to rebalance new cv gameplay in a live server, and toss out all their old 'progress' of 3 years out the window. Or play cv yourself. YOU DO NOT want to be a ship in the rework, even with AA, because it probably wont stop you from being hit at least once, and if you're a DD just exit straight to port. Remember, after a cv strikes it has to turn around and wait for the timer to hit again. Thats about a time sink of 15-25 seconds. If you kill the rest of the planes after that first strike instead, that's still only 30-40 till the next full squad. Sure it will be a different type, but i'm sure it will be completely fine getting constantly harassed until you are dead with fires/floods etc. A rollercoaster of fun.

Anyway, that was long winded, but the effect of this rework is important to talk about. I for one will spend my time playing another game or just playing CV, because at least if I am the CV I can't have my game ruined by one. See you at the apocalypse.

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TL;DR rework fails not because it doesn't increase people playing or the accessibility, it fails because of the negative effect cvs have on games they are in innately. They force campy games and ruin the 3 class triangle. They are massive harassment damage that you can't fight back against. The rework fails because by increasing the people playing them, they also increase the games occupied by the other 20-22 players that are ruined.

 

Well said man. Bang on how i've been feeling about it after playing with it on the PTS.

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Very nice article @Pulicat, albeit a bit saddening.

Regarding the  changes, many have said beforehand that the point of the rework may not be to fix the issues with CVs, but rather present a product suitable for WoWs Legends. 

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14 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

I wonder what removing manual drops/strafes would have done.

Seems like that would have had a huge positive game impact on the balance of CVs at least.

It would have effectively removed cvs because no decent cv player would be playing anymore

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2 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Very nice article @Pulicat, albeit a bit saddening.

Regarding the  changes, many have said beforehand that the point of the rework may not be to fix the issues with CVs, but rather present a product suitable for WoWs Legends. 

Since they said themselves that this wasn't their intention, I chose to believe them. They've been trying to be open about the rework as much as possible so it would not make sense for them to lie on a point so trivial.

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All they had to do was remove strafe, manual drop and flooding from plane torps and the current system would have been be fine.

Instead the burn the house down and build a shed out of discarded pallets and call it the new house.

It's fine, 0.8.0 to 0.8.1 or 0.8.2 will be a nice vacation.

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Im going into hospital for 12 weeks same week the patch hits so not much if any playing.

However i can still read the forums and read what everyone thinks.

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This perfectly describes how I feel about the rework and CVs in general. I am by no means a great or even a particularly good player but I still have fun most of the time when playing. I've experienced bad CVs on my team that were an active hindrance and great CVs that single handedly carried me and my team to victory but no matter what kind of CV is on my team, I can't help but think that I could be having more fun without a CV in game period. 

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It won't fail given time and people playing it who right now just go off videos and what others have said.  WG has put alot of time and money into it.  Will it be perfect day 1?  Nope.  But it will be balanced, adjusted, and tweaked as we go along and it becomes part of every day gameplay.

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31 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

I wonder what removing manual drops/strafes would have done.

Seems like that would have had a huge positive game impact on the balance of CVs at least.

It would have.

But actually trying that never happened.

 

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16 minutes ago, Cit_the_bed said:

All they had to do was remove strafe, manual drop and flooding from plane torps and the current system would have been be fine.

Instead the burn the house down and build a shed out of discarded pallets and call it the new house.

It's fine, 0.8.0 to 0.8.1 or 0.8.2 will be a nice vacation.

I will take a few weeks or months off until this CV thing calms down. I will stay in touch with the forum and the CV progress reports , and wait until things hopefully comes back to normal ? ? ?

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Interesting. I said pretty much the same thing in a CV thread and got roundly attacked for it because I have no idea what I'm talking about. 

I predict that the PTS players will be along in a bit to explain why this is all wrong as they did to me. 

I don't believe them. I maintain that the CV rework will be an epic disaster. 

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24 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

Since they said themselves that this wasn't their intention, I chose to believe them. They've been trying to be open about the rework as much as possible so it would not make sense for them to lie on a point so trivial.

Hope you are right. Regardless if true of false however, it's an indicator of the suspicion with which a part of the playerbase views the rework as well as WG's motives.

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Wow another book about how Terrable cv is. Of course most never played them before. Not understanding that us cv could launch one sq every 5 min.

There was 1 cv in about 10 games and you might have been killed in one of 5 games.

You made it so terrable to be a cv player because of this attatude.  And the population dropped.  Then you screened for a rework and you got your wish.

I bet you also complain about island campers. Well guess what will not happen anymore? Island huggers. There is that to look forward to.

Stop it with the negativity.that got us here and its negativiy that will make the next rework.

Knock it off have fun with it or "git good" that is so often stated or go play somthing else.

Let it come out before trashing!

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I have a feeling it's not gonna end well but will see

if so I'll move on no problem

 I've always been a firm believer that nothing screws up a good surface battle like airplanes so I'm not positive about this at all

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7 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Interesting. I said pretty much the same thing in a CV thread and got roundly attacked for it because I have no idea what I'm talking about. 

 

I am not sure you did, as you were not on the PTS, from what I understood. I thought you were looking for another thread and chose to comment in that topic on the CV rework logic, by mistake!

7 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

 I predict that the PTS players will be along in a bit to explain why this is all wrong as they did to me. 

 

I was on the PTS, most of those who took part on the PTS, agree with the OP, about the problems of this rework. I think you are tilting at windmills. Those that have disagreed with you, were not on the PTS either. But these misunderstandings, in a heated argument, lead to petty insults.

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2 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Interesting. I said pretty much the same thing in a CV thread and got roundly attacked for it because I have no idea what I'm talking about. 

I predict that the PTS players will be along in a bit to explain why this is all wrong as they did to me. 

I don't believe them. I maintain that the CV rework will be an epic disaster. 

I think it would be because Cv players largely only know about games where they exist. They don't have much exposure to the meta where they don't. There is less restriction and more interesting play and options when cvs do not appear, to the point most people have a negative reaction to even seeing a cv in their game without even knowing who is playing them yet or what tier they are. I've already been getting some dissent from cv players in discord, so I know where you're at.

I want this game to be successful and fun to play. I don't think this can happen for a majority of players while cvs exist in any form. You will always have the power with impunity interaction that comes along with cv attacking anything.

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48 minutes ago, Gnomestroy said:

After playing ~4 games with Lexington on the PTS, I can assure you that in tier 8 at least, CVs do not have the capability to deal "massive harassment damage"

Against destroyers, the torpedoes are extremely weak. Even bots were able to easily dodge the water mines. Bombs are also extremely inaccurate. 3 bombing runs over the DD gave me exactly 1 hit. Rockets are the only way to reliably deal damage, and they "only" deal 2-3 k damage over 3 well-aimed attack runs, in addition to crippling modules and lighting fires. That's actually quite significant, but it's not massive damage by any means, especially compared to now, when tier 8 CVs could cross-drop destroyers and get at least 1 guaranteed torpedo hit for 10k damage. And mind you, I was playing against bots.

 

Against battleships, both bombs and torpedoes deal reliable damage, but battleship AA is somewhat effective against my planes. Bombs deal about 3 k per dive bombing run, but even a single BB could shoot down enough planes that the squadron is destroyed after I take the second dive. Once, 3 Richlieus bots gathered within 5 km of each other. When I attempted to attack any one, I would lose half of my bombers in the first dive, and the rest dies when I turn around to make a second dive. After losing the squad, it took about 3 minutes to regen back to half strength.

Also, torpedoes only deal around 4k damage each, and chance for flooding is extremely low against BBs. I got 5 hits and no floods.

Tl;dr Tier 8 CVs no longer have massive damage potential

Its nice to se a rational post Truth hurts the cv hater.

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