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Why does Japanese cruiser torpedo arc positioning suck so badly?

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I guess I'm just curious. Yes, you can use them more readily against enemies who are chasing. But in terms of actual ambush-style kills - where, say, you are approaching a target in smoke and want to unleash at the moment of mutual contact - they are just about useless. This would be more understandable if it was a flaw that was shared by the majority of other cruisers... but it's not - at worst, other nationalities can at least do broadside kills. The fact that the Imperial units have to essentially stick their 'hips' out at an opponent is, from my perspective, a crippling disadvantage, even if I am largely accustomed to it by now. 

Frankly, I feel like the ambush scenario comes up a lot more frequently in general cruiser play than the chase; one instance allows you to initiate as an attacker; the other relies on the opponent to act in a certain way. They simply aren't equitable. 

Edited by Battlecruiser_Kongo

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Because that's how they were designed. I don't know why their original designers made it that way though.

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IJN CAs tend to have significantly stronger torpedo armaments with longer ranges and more torpedoes that do more damage. So to balance the higher power of the torpedoes they are more inconvenient to use in some scenarios.

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1 minute ago, Battlecruiser_Kongo said:

I guess I'm just curious. Yes, you can use them more readily against enemies who are chasing. But in terms of actual ambush-style kills - where, say, you are approaching a target in smoke and want to unleash at the moment of mutual contact - they are just about useless. This would be more understandable if it was a flaw that was shared by the majority of other cruisers... but it's not - at worst, other nationalities can at least do broadside kills. The fact that the Imperial units have to essentially stick their 'hips' out at an opponent is, from my perspective, a crippling disadvantage, even if I am largely accustomed to it by now. 

Considering that at least from my standpoint the Myoko on up to the Zao, are probably more of a kiting boat, the design does somewhat make sense.

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It's how they were set up.

Mogami below.

Image result for cruiser mogami

 

Takao is below.  Atago is from the same class.

Image result for cruiser takao

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5 minutes ago, Lert said:

Because that's how they were designed. I don't know why their original designers made it that way though.

It makes sense from the 'grand running battle' strategy that Japanese heavy cruisers were designed for. The idea was that the Americans, upon learning of a Japanese attack on U.S. interests in the Philippines, would sail their entire fleet across the Pacific. The Japanese Navy intended to harass their larger foe as they went - outranging them (and utilizing and overall battleship speed advantage) during daylight hours; attacking with cruisers at night. In this light, the positioning makes a lot of sense - Japanese CAs would approach by stealth, turn, fire guns and torpedoes, and run (lather/rinse/repeat).

But in terms of WoWs, it's nonsensical. Basically, it's like a holdover from a time before Wargaming figured out what type of action we would be seeing with these ships. 

Edited by Battlecruiser_Kongo
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5 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Kongo said:

I guess I'm just curious. Yes, you can use them more readily against enemies who are chasing. But in terms of actual ambush-style kills - where, say, you are approaching a target in smoke and want to unleash at the moment of mutual contact - they are just about useless. This would be more understandable if it was a flaw that was shared by the majority of other cruisers... but it's not - at worst, other nationalities can at least do broadside kills. The fact that the Imperial units have to essentially stick their 'hips' out at an opponent is, from my perspective, a crippling disadvantage, even if I am largely accustomed to it by now. 

Frankly, I feel like the ambush scenario comes up a lot more frequently in general cruiser play than the chase; one instance allows you to initiate as an attacker; the other relies on the opponent to act in a certain way. They simply aren't equitable. 

 

Because it isn’t a problem in real life. Torpedos were fired on a preset course so they turn after launching and run straight afterwards. The problem that they only run in straight lines from the launcher is a pure gamey and artificial thing/limitation.

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8 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Kongo said:

I guess I'm just curious. Yes, you can use them more readily against enemies who are chasing. But in terms of actual ambush-style kills - where, say, you are approaching a target in smoke and want to unleash at the moment of mutual contact - they are just about useless. This would be more understandable if it was a flaw that was shared by the majority of other cruisers... but it's not - at worst, other nationalities can at least do broadside kills. The fact that the Imperial units have to essentially stick their 'hips' out at an opponent is, from my perspective, a crippling disadvantage, even if I am largely accustomed to it by now. 

Frankly, I feel like the ambush scenario comes up a lot more frequently in general cruiser play than the chase; one instance allows you to initiate as an attacker; the other relies on the opponent to act in a certain way. They simply aren't equitable. 

Imagine how strong they would be if they shot forward while also having great stealth. Imagine the Zao throwing 20 12k torps forward?

 

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Because they were set to fire mostly on a disengagement not on an attack run,  The heavy cruisers were meant to be in the line and if the fleet needed to disengage that's where they need to point mostly

  What enemy is going to pursue knowing you can put a wall of torpedoes out behind you i guess

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Look at how the tubes are positioned - the structure of the ships literally prevents the firing arcs from being any better forward.

 

This, for example, is Myoko.

 

BTUcx2L.png

 

See how that launcher is arranged? At most, it can swing out 90º (assuming 0º is where it is now). There's no way for it to fire a torpedo any further forward than perpendicular to the beam - not unless it goes through the ship. That's why you can in-game - because it's simply impossible, both irl and in-game.

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18 minutes ago, Lert said:

Because that's how they were designed. I don't know why their original designers made it that way though.

Because firing torpedoes in the direction of travel is a bad idea generally speaking, and likewise an engaged foe is far more likely to change aspect face to face by turning away then a target pursuing you. Even modern naval doctrine has surface launched torps restricted to situations where ships are turning away.

Edited by _RC1138

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IRL wise and aside from strategic doctrine, I have a suspicion they were so covered due to the ease with which Long Lances could detonate because of the volatility of the fuel in combination with the size of the warhead. Limited arcs but a bit more cover could possibly make the situation a bit safer.

Besides,  if I'm not wrong you could use the torpedo gyro to reach angles restricted by the arcs.

Edited by warheart1992

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1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

IRL wise and aside from strategic doctrine, I have a suspicion they were so covered due to the ease with which Long Lances could detonate because of the volatility of the fuel and size of the warhead.

There's that, splinter protection, but also the desire to reduce deck space usage and to reduce the IJN's already propensity to cause instability due to so much heavy crapmounted high above the waterline. Torp launchers and their equipment are quite heavy and could cause the ship to become even more unstable than IJN ships tended to be.

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35 minutes ago, Lert said:

Because that's how they were designed. I don't know why their original designers made it that way though.

Nope. It’s because real torpedoes from the era had a gyro offset angle setting. You told the gyro what angle to run and it would turn to that angle after launch.

In reality, you could have the torpedo go virtually any angle relative to the launch angle, though in reality IIRC gyro angle was limited to a max of 90 degrees in either direction; to reduce the chance of accidentally launching a torpedo at yourself. 

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I mean, in real life naval tactics were nothing like they are in this game, crossing the T was a viable winning strategy. In the game it's just suicide. In real life they were probably much more useful contrary to the game. But even though certain aspects like the torp angles are annoying, but stuff like that is kind of hard to actually "balance" or anything without changing something from the ship like it's actual model.

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How broken would it be in WoWs if IJN CAs were given full firing arcs with torpedoes by applying this torpedo gyro setting ability in real life into the game?

Like the torpedo tubes would still physically be capped at the angles they can only move to now, but you have the full firing arc by having torpedoes with a slightly longer arming distance automatically turn towards the forward arcs if it exceeds to tube's arcs.

Would this be a neat feature in IJN CAs and potentially DDs to make up for slow torpedo tube traverse times?

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I would rather they keep to the actual ship design and not let them fire forward. This was done do to how torpedos work and move in water back when the ships where designed. Also it’s a lot easier to load and store torpedos on the back of the ship. 

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6 minutes ago, hyuuu said:

How broken would it be in WoWs if IJN CAs were given full firing arcs with torpedoes by applying this torpedo gyro setting ability in real life into the game?

Like the torpedo tubes would still physically be capped at the angles they can only move to now, but you have the full firing arc by having torpedoes with a slightly longer arming distance automatically turn towards the forward arcs if it exceeds to tube's arcs.

Would this be a neat feature in IJN CAs and potentially DDs to make up for slow torpedo tube traverse times?

This does not only aplly on IJN; Almost all of the USN DDs with side mounts had the ability to do "curved ahead fire", basically using the gyros to direct the torpedoes almost in front of the ship. 

That said, most naval powers were able to use gyros just not to that extent. So almost everyone would end up getting this ability.

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Bunch of shortsighted naval architects being selfish and not realizing a video game about their ships would come out decades later.

Think of the armor and firing angles if those dummies had realized you only need food, quarters, ammunition, fuel, etc. for a few years, but speculative computer games are forever!

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2 hours ago, Battlecruiser_Kongo said:

I guess I'm just curious. Yes, you can use them more readily against enemies who are chasing. But in terms of actual ambush-style kills - where, say, you are approaching a target in smoke and want to unleash at the moment of mutual contact - they are just about useless. This would be more understandable if it was a flaw that was shared by the majority of other cruisers... but it's not - at worst, other nationalities can at least do broadside kills. The fact that the Imperial units have to essentially stick their 'hips' out at an opponent is, from my perspective, a crippling disadvantage, even if I am largely accustomed to it by now. 

Frankly, I feel like the ambush scenario comes up a lot more frequently in general cruiser play than the chase; one instance allows you to initiate as an attacker; the other relies on the opponent to act in a certain way. They simply aren't equitable. 

Torpedo arcs are fine. It is already broken and a double-standard that Zao can have better torps than over 50% of the DDs of the same tier. Even the Khaba has more justification for its original torps than Zao does.

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Ambush situations may be more frequent in game, but catching chasing opponents unexpectedly with torpedoes is also more frequent. I've found in my time in IJN CAs that targets that are pushing into an area are more likely to be caught by my cruiser's torpedoes than a DDs torpedoes, especially if I'm firing on them and giving them cause to give chase.

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I noticed several players here saying the torpedo firing arcs are a balancing feature... when WG officially never said that firing arcs for torpedoes were made as a balancing thing. When it comes to torpedoes they always change soft stats to balance them: detection range, speed, damage, flooding chance, reload time...

Also like some others already pointed out: two objects cant occupy the same space at the same time. The supersctruture of several japanese heavy cruisers limited the firing arcs of the torpedo lauchers. One of the few exceptions was Furutaka where they were mounted on the deck.

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3 hours ago, Lert said:

Because that's how they were designed. I don't know why their original designers made it that way though.

Remember, in the real world bow tanking was a death wish so torpedo firing ships would be running parallel or turning away when they fired.

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Japanese Ship doctrine was that since Japan may be fighting the US or GB in the future and was limited by the Washington Treaty (are real precursor to Japan eventually attacking USA) to the number of ships she could build, Japan decided each ship class would be superior to any enemy class encountered.  Hence the Yamato, Fubuki, Japanese heavy CAs.  These ships should be the best and toughest at each tier if you want a historical bent.  The Long Lance was the "secret" weapon the Japanese developed to give their DDs and CAs a even greater edge.  Japanese CAs torpedo arcs were to launch as previously stated, to attack in stealth, on a battle turn away.  Also as stated, launching in a forward arc was considered less than optimal to the INTEGRITY of the torpedo.  The LL was not fragile per se, but it was valuable and guidance systems and overall integrity were less impinged by launching with the wake of the ship rather than against it.  Also torpedo storage was aft and less likely to be hit in a gunnery action when the Japanese opened fire, as they would turn BACK towards the enemy after launching to finish the job with guns.   Remember they are launching over 20 MILES away.  Japanese doctrine was offense, offense, offense.  The torpedo launcher were not built in the amidship for them to run away as previously stated, but again to protect the racks and more importantly the reloads, which if detonated, made a really BIG explosion...next time you get a devastating strike in your torpedo DD or CA, just think of your torpedoes getting hit and exploding.

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IJN torpedoes were better protected, because they are inside the ship. Although, IRL, this has the downside of exploding inside the ship, rather than outside.

IDK why WoWs doesn't give IJN cruiser torpedo mounts more HP than other nations for that reason alone.

Like, no, really, exposed torpedo mounts should get permanently destroyed way more often.

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