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Bill_Halsey

Who decided the having CV's in Rank Blitz is a great idea?

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T6 is particularly a tough tier for skill gap problems..      straffing and manual drop become a thing there for 1st time in tech trees...  If you have a new to T6 and up cv mechanincs pilot against a savvy Uni in a T6 the new player is virtually eliminated from the start.  Why someone would want to bring a new to them CV to ranked would be beyond me?   But you can bet it happens.    

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56 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

How do you do that?  I thought by the time you see the ships it is too late to drop out.

Hit the ESC button and leave the game. Just move for 2 minutes to escape being dinged for it.

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The crux of the problem and the elephant in the room people usually fail to address is the "why".

Why are CVs so regulated and restricted in all game modes? Why are they unable to participate in CB? Why are CBs limited to a single BB? and Why does WG refuse, year after year, to make BBs/CVs adhere to the same standards... the same balance model as the rest of the ship types?

If you have to limit a ship type to 1 or even remove its access completely from a competitive mode, it is in fact broken (overpowered). The intelligent solution is to fix the balance issue, not alter access, and not alter MM limits

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15 minutes ago, Gavroche_ said:

CVs are extremely rare in ranked, at least in the upper ranks. The only people who play CVs in ranked are super unicorn CV players. If Ranked is the top 5% of players, CVs in ranked are the top 0.5% of players.

:Smile_teethhappy::Smile_facepalm:

If they are unicums, they must really be a rare breeed. Because the ones playing on our side were pretty bad.

 

1. One player decided to move up alongside us. Got spotted, focused and died within 5 min of the match.

2. One player had his CV parked behind an island. A BB and CA spotted him and were closing in. I was the only other ship left and I was out of position to help. I told him to move. He decided he was going to launch his remaining planes first and didn't bother moving until they  within 10 km of hi. You know how the rest of the story went.

Unicums? if so, they're on the red tm.

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2 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

Well, with CVs going to even tiers, that means it will be easier to keep CVs out of Ranked, just by making them odd tiers. So T5, T7 and T9 are good candidates. The next Ranked Season is T9 with the Arms Race mode. I have a feeling that T9 will be the full Ranked seasons most times as a WAG. Whether or not Arms Race will be the Ranked mode depends on the reception for the next Ranked season.

No, they stated CV's will now have a two tier access. So T6 will get paired in games you would expected a t7 to get into. Also

"T7.... good candidate" LOL no.... WG is probably not going to make a ranked t7 (outside of rank 1) for any foreseeable future. For two reasons.

1) it is the most premium saturated tier in the game (it's hard to convince people to buy a premium for the tier when they already have 5 of them...) 

2) The "pay"fast. There are very few ships in the game this broken. In small population match (ranked) it becomes a single game changeable ship in nearly all of them. A single Belfast can shut down an entire corridor of play quite easily. With no real effective counter at T7 since radar doesn't really start kicking in till T8. About it's only real counter is the Indianapolis or the Atlanta since they get radar, but they are both quite fragile and not nearly as effective at anything else as the Belfast is. Also, Ranked doesn't work well when the only counter to such a powerful premium, is other premiums. 

Edited by Sullen_Maximus

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3 minutes ago, KnyxUDL said:

The crux of the problem and the elephant in the room people usually fail to address is the "why".

Why are CVs so regulated and restricted in all game modes? Why are they unable to participate in CB? Why are CBs limited to a single BB? and Why does WG refuse, year after year, to make BBs/CVs adhere to the same standards... the same balance model as the rest of the ship types?

If you have to limit a ship type to 1 or even remove its access completely from a competitive mode, it is in fact broken (overpowered). The intelligent solution is the fix the balance issue, not alter access, and not alter MM limits

Simply put..numbers. 12 vs 12 match, a T10 CV  has an impact but is mitigated by better AA at T10. Especially from overlapping AA auras. 7 vs 7? AA gets halved. Not to mention the biggest contribution a CV makes in the game. Spotting. Spotting and tracking 2 dd's is easier than tracking 4. DD' players normally run away from planes to avoid being detected. If you're detected, you will be focused fired upon. And then dead. 

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4 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Simply put..numbers. 12 vs 12 match, a T10 CV  has an impact but is mitigated by better AA at T10. Especially from overlapping AA auras. 7 vs 7? AA gets halved. Not to mention the biggest contribution a CV makes in the game. Spotting. Spotting and tracking 2 dd's is easier than tracking 4. DD' players normally run away from planes to avoid being detected. If you're detected, you will be focused fired upon. And then dead. 

This does nothing to really address what I stated.

If they actually balance the game, based on the numbers, then generally speaking CVs (and BBs) would go from LOW risk: HIGH Reward to LOW risk: LOW Reward, which is the required ratio for any balance in any game.

Shared spotting is also a part of that reward, and a part of that balance. AA is a part of that balance as well.

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3 hours ago, retic1959 said:

I drop out of the queue when I see cv's in it , the teams are too small for that kind of nonsense .

Literally, standing on a soap box saying you're so affraid of CVs that you fun and hide. Lol

I do something similar but I quickly load back in with a CV.

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2 minutes ago, Sullen_Maximus said:
2 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

Well, with CVs going to even tiers, that means it will be easier to keep CVs out of Ranked, just by making them odd tiers. So T5, T7 and T9 are good candidates. The next Ranked Season is T9 with the Arms Race mode. I have a feeling that T9 will be the full Ranked seasons most times as a WAG. Whether or not Arms Race will be the Ranked mode depends on the reception for the next Ranked season.

No, they stated CV's will now have a two tier access. So T6 will get paired in games you would expected a t7 to get into. Also

"T7.... good candidate" LOL no.... WG is probably not going to make a ranked t7 (outside of rank 1) for any foreseeable future. For two reasons.

1) it is the most premium saturated tier in the game (it's hard to convince people to buy a premium for the tier when they already have 5 of them...) 

2) The "pay"fast. There are very few ships in the game this broken. In small population match (ranked) it becomes a single game changeable ship in nearly all of them. A single Belfast can shut down an entire corridor of play quite easily. With no real effective counter at T7 since radar doesn't really start kicking in till T8. About it's only real counter is the Indianapolis or the Atlanta since they get radar, but they are both quite fragile and not nearly as effective at anything else as the Belfast is. Also, Ranked doesn't work well when the only counter to such a powerful premium, is other premiums. 

Yes, in Randoms CVs will have two tier access, never said that it would not. But, if you make Ranked T5, T7 or T9, then there will be NO CVs as there will no longer be any odd tier CVs.

 

T5, T7 and T9 would be good candidates for having Ranked without CVs. As for premiums in the tiers...

T5 has Gremyashchy, Cesare, the Kamikaze clones all as premiums, so I'm sure there would be complaints about T5 Ranked, outside of sprint.

T7 has Belfast, Flint, Atlanta, and a host of other premiums. 

T9 has Musashi, Missouri, Black, Kronshtadt, and Jean Bart as premiums, but most people sell their T9 tech tree ships. I have a feeling that T9 will become the default Ranked season to get more people to keep T9 ships.

 

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8 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

Literally, standing on a soap box saying you're so affraid of CVs that you fun and hide. Lol

I do something similar but I quickly load back in with a CV.

Not fear , it's just a game after all ,  but I don't enjoy playing with cv's . I'm not gonna bother if I don't enjoy it . If it gets out of hand with the rework , I'll play co-op or take a break .

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12 minutes ago, KnyxUDL said:

This does nothing to really address what I stated.

If they actually balance the game, based on the numbers, then generally speaking CVs (and BBs) would go from LOW risk: HIGH Reward to LOW risk: LOW Reward, which is the required ratio for any balance in any game.

Shared spotting is also a part of that reward, and a part of that balance. AA is a part of that balance as well.

If you are the only one who can spot the ship, you get all the rewards my record is 105845 in the Enterprise.

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1 hour ago, SJ_Sailer said:

How do you do that?  I thought by the time you see the ships it is too late to drop out.

It tells you the number and class of the ships waiting for a game , if I see cv's in the queue I drop out .

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Comparison doesn't really apply. CV's were removed from clan battles to keep the teams from being split. In that Teams with CV players would never be able to play against non CV clans. It was easier to just to remove the CV/planes across all Clans, then to  deal with a split. Especially in a mode where not everyone can participate to begin with; since most clans don't have the communication or the interest to sync together a team to participate in battles to begin with.

Rank is just a bunch of random individual…. where having a CV or not having is nothing more than chance.

Rank isn't even a good word for the battle mode.... that is Ranked.... I mean, there isn't really a rank. Cause if there was, there would be only 1 #1, and only 1, #100 and so on.

Edited by Hydra_360ci

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44 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

 

Yes, in Randoms CVs will have two tier access, never said that it would not. But, if you make Ranked T5, T7 or T9, then there will be NO CVs as there will no longer be any odd tier CVs.

 

T5, T7 and T9 would be good candidates for having Ranked without CVs. As for premiums in the tiers...

T5 has Gremyashchy, Cesare, the Kamikaze clones all as premiums, so I'm sure there would be complaints about T5 Ranked, outside of sprint.

T7 has Belfast, Flint, Atlanta, and a host of other premiums. 

T9 has Musashi, Missouri, Black, Kronshtadt, and Jean Bart as premiums, but most people sell their T9 tech tree ships. I have a feeling that T9 will become the default Ranked season to get more people to keep T9 ships.

 

I'm well aware every tier has premiums. I'm also aware they give definitively some advantage to those without the premium.  The Belfast at T7 is undeniably the worse case though because it's combination of abilities make it particularly painful when force matched against same tier opponents on small population matches. 

T7 ends up just becoming a game of who has more Belfast. That's what it boiled down to last time they did it, and that's exactly what would happen again. 

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12 minutes ago, Sullen_Maximus said:

I'm well aware every tier has premiums. I'm also aware they give definitively some advantage to those without the premium.  The Belfast at T7 is undeniably the worse case though because it's combination of abilities make it particularly painful when force matched against same tier opponents on small population matches. 

T7 ends up just becoming a game of who has more Belfast. That's what it boiled down to last time they did it, and that's exactly what would happen again. 

Well, I never said that T7 would be a good tier for Ranked balance, only that it would be a good tier for blocking out CVs from ranked. I expect T9 to become the default Ranked tier, at least for full seasons.

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Every match in ranked thus far has been "interesting" when the rare cv pops in. Usually one gets sniped by the other cv or they do the SPG thing and don't pay attention to chat ie "CV move there's a dd heading your way".  Then the usual last minute "help" messages when we're pushing caps and he's getting torped like we told him he would. If the other team's cv gets too close however my team has seemed to lose their collective minds going after him ignoring caps and the other red ships shooting at them. Like I said, interesting. 

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5 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

We were winning in one match. Reds were down 6-4 ships, when of our dd's said he was going to hunt the CV. A total of 3 ships (2 DD's and a CA) decided to go BACON!. The rest of us were killed off and I went salty on the 2 other morons for thinking it was a GREAT idea to leave the fight.  Sometime the idiots isn't the CV player. It's your own team.  

Bill, generally speaking, I'd agree with you that chasing after the CV was a waste of time.  However, it can be map dependent as well as situational.  Generally speaking, I'd think that any ship that goes chasing after the CV would be better off used against the other remaining enemy ships.  OTOH, if you've sighted the enemy CV and he's not that far away, it might be worth sending a SINGLE ship after him.  The problem is, like you described, when a bunch of your team's ships all decide to play "chase the CV".  That's profoundly stupid.  I wouldn't even bother chasing the CV in a tier 6 IJN DD.  At tier 6, the CVs start getting fast enough that trying to run them down is difficult, and getting into range to be able to land torps is even more difficult.  You usually have to gun down a running CV, which means that you'd better be in a DD with decent guns.  And you'd probably better be good at dodging torps because the CV's not going to defend itself, if the CV player has a couple of brain cells remaining.

 

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4 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

Well, with CVs going to even tiers, that means it will be easier to keep CVs out of Ranked, just by making them odd tiers. So T5, T7 and T9 are good candidates. The next Ranked Season is T9 with the Arms Race mode. I have a feeling that T9 will be the full Ranked seasons most times as a WAG. Whether or not Arms Race will be the Ranked mode depends on the reception for the next Ranked season.

 

Ranked Sprint, the mini-ranked seasons. A full Ranked Season is coming in patch 8.0.

But it's Tier IX right?  Aren't the TIer IX, odd tier CVs disappearing with the CV Rework?

3 hours ago, Gavroche_ said:

They’ve never banned it in normal ranked , or at least, not that I’m aware of.

The reason that they banned them from Clan Battles is that you need a CV to counter an enemy CV for spotting. Without a CV, your DDs and kiters get destroyed. Not every clan has a competent CV player because the CV population is so low. WG obviously decided that having a good CV player should not be a requirement for a clan to participate.

For example, our clan, KNTAI which is a full sized clan with a lot of skilled players, has a total of 14 tier X CVs. If you compare that to our DD count (80), our BB count (66), or our CA count (127) you can see why CVs would make clan battles difficult. 

That being said, they’ve never stopped individual  CV players from competitive gamemodes.

CVs have never been excluded in Ranked.  It's Clan Battles that they're excluded from.

 

Even in the two Tier V Ranked Sprints we've had, CVs were there.  The OP is late to the party.  CVs have always been in WoWS since Launch, CVs have been here for every Ranked occasion.  This is simply another case of people not knowing what they're doing nor familiar with what's going on around them.

 

Even in Co-op, I saw some moron, as soon as the match starts, start ranting in chat, "OMGOMGOMG we have a Bot CV on our team OMG this is [edited], WG needs to do something good luck guys you're on your own" and the Des Moines leaves.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

But it's Tier IX right?  Aren't the TIer IX, odd tier CVs disappearing with the CV Rework?

You're correct, Haze.

I would argue that perhaps Ranked or if the timing had been right, Clan Battles, should not include carriers right away.  Not because of any sense that carriers aren't ready for Ranked or CBs, but are the players really ready to bring them?  OTOH, it's been suggested to me that perhaps that makes it the perfect time for CVs to be in either of those modes,  i.e. at a time when nobody's an expert with reworked CVs.

Regardless, it does make one wonder if WG selected tier 9 very intentionally to prevent CVs from being in regular Ranked.

 

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Does anyone else find it a bit ironic that Bill Halsey is complaining about CVs? :cap_hmm:

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2 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Does anyone else find it a bit ironic that Bill Halsey is complaining about CVs? :cap_hmm:

Oh, it hasn't slipped past.  The guy was commanding not only the largest mass of naval power of history, but also tons and tons and tons of Carriers.  He had several times more Carriers at his disposal than the entire IJN had for the Pearl Harbor strike.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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11 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

But it's Tier IX right?  Aren't the TIer IX, odd tier CVs disappearing with the CV Rework?

 

6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

You're correct, Haze.

I would argue that perhaps Ranked or if the timing had been right, Clan Battles, should not include carriers right away.  Not because of any sense that carriers aren't ready for Ranked or CBs, but are the players really ready to bring them?  OTOH, it's been suggested to me that perhaps that makes it the perfect time for CVs to be in either of those modes,  i.e. at a time when nobody's an expert with reworked CVs.

Regardless, it does make one wonder if WG selected tier 9 very intentionally to prevent CVs from being in regular Ranked.

 

Yes, the next Ranked is T9 in 8.0 and CVs are scheduled to lose the odd tiers Jan 23rd on 8.0.

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2 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

If you are the only one who can spot the ship, you get all the rewards my record is 105845 in the Enterprise.

You still aren't addressing anything I am saying.

CVs and to a lesser extent, BBs are LOW risk and HIGH reward. This is already a inherently game breaking combination (overpowered).

Low Risk should ALWAYS offer Low Reward. High Risk should always offer High Reward. In a game where respawn mechanics are in place, those rewards equate to potential, not reliability. When the game does NOT have respawn mechanics, like WoWs, those rewards must be relatively reliable in such fashion.

When the term "reward" is used in risk vs reward, it isn't talking about Reward in the same way as "XP" or "Credits". 


To simplify, when a CV is unspotted back at spawn, and sends all his torp bombers and AP bombers to  kill a CA that is 25km away, or when a BB unspotted is able to fire quite an accurate salvo to kill a CA/DD that is 20km away... that is LOW/NO RISK
Now if you go by what they are able to achieve in this regard, now you get to how they are rewarded for this risk. CVs/BBs have the longest engagement range, yet also net the HIGHEST damage averages per match. Yet whilst typically having upwards of 5-10km range MORE than their Cruiser counterparts of the same tier, BBs are also achieving hit rates close enough to the same accuracy as those Cruiser. CVs/BBs are surviving matches more on average than any other ship type. CVs/BBs are netting complete kills on average more than any other ship type. This is 100% indicative of HIGH Reward.

An intelligent developer in charge of balance would correct such by either REDUCING the reward or INCREASING the risk. Well, intelligent and not controlled by bias.

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6 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

The main reason that CV's were kept out of clan battles or normal ranked was that it would have an out sized impact on the match

Any other day i would agree with this statement. However, in Rank (an especially in this T-6 Rank), the real impact is losing your DDs while the reds don't. Once your DDs are gone, it's pretty much an uphill battle. I'm not even concerned about CVs in this Rank Sprint, My AA Queen Elizabeth laughs at those puny planes.

Edited by Sidelock

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2 hours ago, retic1959 said:

Not fear , it's just a game after all ,  but I don't enjoy playing with cv's . I'm not gonna bother if I don't enjoy it . If it gets out of hand with the rework , I'll play co-op or take a break .

Justify it however you want but "I hide from CVs" sounds pretty cowardly.

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