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Gnomestroy

How much damage does an over-penetrating Battleship calibre shell do in real life?

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I'm just curious, are there any destroyers or light cruisers that survived getting hit by an AP shell with a calibre larger than 300 mm, and if so, do overpens actually hurt the ship significantly less than the shell exploding inside the ship IRL?

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Wiki "Battle off Samar"

At 07:30, three battleship main battery shells passed through the deck of 
Johnston and into her portside engine room, cutting the destroyer's speed in half to 17 kn (20 mph; 31 km/h) and disrupting electric power to her aft gun mounts. Hagen reports these as 14 in (360 mm) shells from the battleship Kongō, at a range of 7 nmi (8.1 mi; 13 km), but this is unlikely as Kongo was on the far side of the Japanese formation and Kongo's action report states she was not engaging any targets at this time as she was blinded by a rain squall. Based on the bearing and angle of fall it's far more likely these were 18.1 in (460 mm) shells fired by Yamato from a range of 10.029 nautical miles (11.541 mi; 18.574 km), as moments later, three 6.1 in (150 mm) shells from Yamato struck Johnston's bridge, causing numerous casualties and severing the fingers of Commander Evans's left hand. The ship was mangled badly, with dead and dying sailors strewn across her bloody decks. Yamato reported sinking a "cruiser" (the Japanese consistently overestimated the size of the US ships engaged) with a main battery salvo at 07:27.

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Yes. USS Johnston's After Action Report documents this. http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/557.htm

Reports from the period indicate shells 203mm and up would overpenetrate by at least 30 feet unless stopped by machinery. It is likely that 14 inch and higher would simply have passed through the destroyer.

0555710.jpg

Multiple reports state that shells went in one side and out the other.

The end of the report concludes that, had Johnston not been surrounded before going down, damage control could have kept the ship afloat.

0555712.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Compassghost said:

Yes. USS Johnston's After Action Report documents this. http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/557.htm

Reports from the period indicate shells 203mm and up would overpenetrate by at least 30 feet unless stopped by machinery. It is likely that 14 inch and higher would simply have passed through the destroyer.

0555710.jpg

Multiple reports state that shells went in one side and out the other.

The end of the report concludes that, had Johnston not been surrounded before going down, damage control could have kept the ship afloat.

0555712.jpg

This is exactly why large caliber shells should not automatically over penetrate. Hits to what would be the citadel should be treated as at least standard pens because they hit something solid.

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7 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

This is exactly why large caliber shells should not automatically over penetrate. Hits to what would be the citadel should be treated as at least standard pens because they hit something solid.

Exactly!!!  This what I've been saying all along.  Maybe they could re-add citadels to DDs, except that citadel hits would only do "full penetration" damage (i.e. 1/3 damage) rather than the full citadel damage (i.e. 100% damage) seen on larger ships.

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31 minutes ago, Gnomestroy said:

I'm just curious, are there any destroyers or light cruisers that survived getting hit by an AP shell with a calibre larger than 300 mm, and if so, do overpens actually hurt the ship significantly less than the shell exploding inside the ship IRL?

Given that people have already pointed to the example of the Battle of Samar I think the answer to the first question is obviously a yes. And for the second question the answer is also yes. An AP shell that over-pens is basically just a solid shot that tears a hole through whatever it hits. (If it helps you visualize it, imagine you're shooting an empty soda can with a .22. You get a nice round entry hole and a nice round exit hole roughly the same diameter.) An over-pen might wreck machinery or perforate a boiler. Or it might turn a person into meat paste. And it might spray metal fragments. But that's less damaging than the alternative. A battleship AP shell that explodes inside the ship is basically a bomb with hundreds of pounds of explosive that punches an entry hole with all the attendant damage that inflicts before going off inside the target. (If it helps you visualize what that would look like, imagine shooting an unopened soda can with a .22 hollow-point, say a .22LR, CCI Stinger). Which one makes the bigger mess of the can?

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9 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Exactly!!!  This what I've been saying all along.  Maybe they could re-add citadels to DDs, except that citadel hits would only do "full penetration" damage (i.e. 1/3 damage) rather than the full citadel damage (i.e. 100% damage) seen on larger ships.

Considering overpens still do a considerable chunk of damage to destroyers (and the machinery spaces you're talking about take up a considerable chunk of the ship), I dont think that would be healthy for the game.

The pen changes were much better for the game than letting battleships chunk down their """counter""" class essentially for free.

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Game balance aside, thanks for the read. That was quite informative. 

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8 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

The pen changes were much better for the game than letting battleships chunk down their """counter""" class essentially for free.

as fun as it was to smack a HSF Harekaze with my Nelson for 11k HP, I'm glad that I can face BBs with some confidence now when I play DDs. 

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5 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Considering overpens still do a considerable chunk of damage to destroyers (and the machinery spaces you're talking about take up a considerable chunk of the ship), I dont think that would be healthy for the game.

The pen changes were much better for the game than letting battleships chunk down their """counter""" class essentially for free.

I'm not sure I understand why?  Why is it unhealthy for the game?  I hit a Shimakaze yesterday with 5, 18" AP rounds from my Yammy.  It at best. should have cut his speed to near zero because there was now 10, 18" holes allowing water into the ship from all over the place....  His power should have cut out because of the EMP created by hardened metal striking hardened metal....his Circuit Breakers would have tripped.  Everything in between is not seriously messed up and that includes crew.....  Everything should slow down then !  Especially if a turret was hit and shown as a component  destroyed ......

Yes, this is a game and I get that.......but, common sense should be included as well....    If it were, DD captains would have to seriously think about what they do in the open....

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2 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

I'm not sure I understand why?  Why is it unhealthy for the game?  I hit a Shimakaze yesterday with 5, 18" AP rounds from my Yammy.  It at best. should have cut his speed to near zero because there was now 10, 18" holes allowing water into the ship from all over the place....  His power should have cut out because of the EMP created by hardened metal striking hardened metal....his Circuit Breakers would have tripped.  Everything in between is not seriously messed up and that includes crew.....  Everything should slow down then !  Especially if a turret was hit and shown as a component  destroyed ......

Yes, this is a game and I get that.......but, common sense should be included as well....    If it were, DD captains would have to seriously think about what they do in the open....

Do you honestly think DD captains don't have to seriously think about what they do in the open without BB AP being able to get full pens? 

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37 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

This is exactly why large caliber shells should not automatically over penetrate. Hits to what would be the citadel should be treated as at least standard pens because they hit something solid.

That's more of a game balance issue than a realism one. To prevent DDs from randomly eating 14k dmg salvos from high tier BBs.

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As the DD is already the worst surviving ship type in game (across ALL servers and for several years now) what is the requirement to have yet another thing that can reduce their survival chances even more?

Honestly I'm amazed at how ship survival is nowhere near balanced in game yet some still don't think that is enough. Are players really scared of the ship type that has the lowest damage (as the DD holds that title as well - yep across all servers and for years too)?

If we did away with all ship types and just had the best surviving and damage ship type left, I bet people still wouldn't be satisfied - probably start complaining that one nation is better than the other and it's not fair. :Smile_smile:

 

Edited by _WaveRider_
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A 16 Inch shell would rip through a DD so fast it would suck equipment, and people, out the exit hole while spitting so much shrapnel around from the entrance hole it would either sink the ship or incapacitate most of the crew still on board.  WG does a horrible job in that aspect of portraying large caliber shells passing through DD's.  Source:  Retired NASA engineer/manager with specialties in ablative material and hypersonic impactors. 

 

It's more about speed than the shell weights as well.  I've seen grains of sand/a spec of paint punch a fist sized hole in the shuttle radiators.  Even to our astronauts small grains of space material and debris can be lethal,  why our suits are built to such high standards while on EVA.  Even on my baby Atlantis, we had thick,  triple pane glass that we would loose two panes to something with no weight but traveling 17,500 mph.  

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33 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Considering overpens still do a considerable chunk of damage to destroyers (and the machinery spaces you're talking about take up a considerable chunk of the ship), I dont think that would be healthy for the game.

The pen changes were much better for the game than letting battleships chunk down their """counter""" class essentially for free.

Nothing's stopping WG from making DD cits smaller than might seem realistic for the sake of balance.

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38 minutes ago, The_Painted_Target said:

Considering overpens still do a considerable chunk of damage to destroyers (and the machinery spaces you're talking about take up a considerable chunk of the ship), I dont think that would be healthy for the game.

The pen changes were much better for the game than letting battleships chunk down their """counter""" class essentially for free.

Do they do considerable damage? Grabbing two tier 8's for an example the Akizuki has 15,900 HP while the North Carolina's AP does 1310 on an over pen meaning the NC needs to hit the Akizuki 13 times with AP and when you consider that getting more than one or maybe two BB class gun hits on a maneuvering DD in a volley is extremely rare you are still looking at at least six volleys or three minutes.

20 minutes ago, Gavroche_ said:

That's more of a game balance issue than a realism one. To prevent DDs from randomly eating 14k dmg salvos from high tier BBs.

I just feel the change was over done and actually make DD's too survivable to BB AP. Besides how often does a BB get more than one or two volleys off at a DD?

3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Nothing's stopping WG from making DD cits smaller than might seem realistic for the sake of balance.

Well, how about giving standard damage to any large caliber AP that causes an incapacitation to major machinery? So engine and rudder and main gun hits would still cause standard damage.

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20 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

Do you honestly think DD captains don't have to seriously think about what they do in the open without BB AP being able to get full pens? 

I think that a lot of DD players just plain stink.  I'm almost always the last DD alive on my team, because I play cautiously and smart.  But IMO, too many DD players make rash and stupid decisions that  get them killed with ridiculous ease.  Too many of them will start shooting the instant they're spotted, even when they have an excellent chance of escaping back into concealment, and they die because of this.   Obviously, if you're hit by radar and are much too far into the radar bubble to escape, you might as well got down firing.   But far too often, players that DO have a chance to escape back into concealment make an instinctual but terrible decision to open fire, thus greatly increasing their detection range and making escape nigh on impossible.

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3 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

 

Well, how about giving standard damage to any large caliber AP that causes an incapacitation to major machinery? So engine and rudder and main gun hits would still cause standard damage.

BrushWolf, that "major machinery" would pretty much define a DD's citadel, though I'd pretty much limit it to the engine and boilers.  And even that might be too large, i.e. too great a percentage of a DD's hull, for balance purposes.

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7 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I think that a lot of DD players just plain stink.  I'm almost always the last DD alive on my team, because I play cautiously and smart.  But IMO, too many DD players make rash and stupid decisions that  get them killed with ridiculous ease.  Too many of them will start shooting the instant they're spotted, even when they have an excellent chance of escaping back into concealment, and they die because of this.   Obviously, if you're hit by radar and are much too far into the radar bubble to escape, you might as well got down firing.   But far too often, players that DO have a chance to escape back into concealment make an instinctual but terrible decision to open fire, thus greatly increasing their detection range and making escape nigh on impossible.

That's certainly true but the problems with BB AP on DDs went far beyond punishing bad DD plays and bad DD players. A DD could do everything right and still end up losing a big chunk of their health to a single AP shell from a BB. It was a dumb problem that's been corrected and the game has not suffered for it. 

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11 minutes ago, Crucis said:

BrushWolf, that "major machinery" would pretty much define a DD's citadel, though I'd pretty much limit it to the engine and boilers.  And even that might be too large, i.e. too great a percentage of a DD's hull, for balance purposes.

And at one point, DD's did have citadels, or something along those lines. 

It didnt go well, if I'm recalling correctly. That was before I made into testing, but from what I've been told (by people I'm willing to trust), it was a disaster of near biblical proportions. 

Edited by BrokenGamer

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Part of the, to me anyway, obvious choices the dev team made with this game is :  A ship is a ship, is a ship, and all ships can sink all other ships.

I didn't have any issues with how BB AP worked on DD's before, and totally thought that the concept of a round from a BB coring your ship lengthwise and leaving nothing floating behind made total sense.

Punch sufficient metal and that shell is going to arm.  They're supposed to do that ya know.   Shells fuse and fire because the fusing mechanism detects the sudden counter acceleration of impact and fires the bursting charge.   There's a timing mechanism involved that delays the actual firing to insure the shell bursts inside the ship.  But th delay on BB AP rounds is set to deal with armor levels of capital ships (cruiser and larger) If the shell only fires it's bursting charge after passing through it is going to cause significantly less damage that would effect a ships ability to fight.  Note UK "short fused" AP.  Nasty stuff... mostly to ensure UK cruisers with their lack of main gun HE will be able to do real damage to superstructure and through light hull plating instead of overpenning and doing nothing but a mear fraction of their damage.

Real life you don't want to be hit with BB rounds in a DD.  They make a helluva mess.  Just the shockwave as they pass through can kill crew and destroy equipment and god forbid they round hit something really solid..  bad doesn't even begin to quantify the results.  Hang the fuzzy dice on the bridge binnacle.  Your gonna need that charm!

Either way, the dev's are not going to change it back or in any other way until they see justification to do so in the games collected numerics.   Remember, they're not trying to make a naval combat simulator here but a naval combat game that captures the FEEL of naval combat.  So for they're doing a pretty serious bang up job!

Warlord sends    

 

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17 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Do they do considerable damage? Grabbing two tier 8's for an example the Akizuki has 15,900 HP while the North Carolina's AP does 1310 on an over pen meaning the NC needs to hit the Akizuki 13 times with AP and when you consider that getting more than one or maybe two BB class gun hits on a maneuvering DD in a volley is extremely rare you are still looking at at least six volleys or three minutes.

 

Is it a bad thing that it could take so make volleys and if so why?

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13 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Do they do considerable damage? Grabbing two tier 8's for an example the Akizuki has 15,900 HP while the North Carolina's AP does 1310 on an over pen meaning the NC needs to hit the Akizuki 13 times with AP and when you consider that getting more than one or maybe two BB class gun hits on a maneuvering DD in a volley is extremely rare you are still looking at at least six volleys or three minutes.

Just push the 1 button before you fire bud.  You'll load HE for the next salvo.  It's really not that difficult a concept.  DD disappears and you're stuck with HE and only cruisers and BBs to shoot at?  Push 2 and fire your HE at something.  You'll still do damage and likely start a fire on whatever you shoot at.  This is really a silly thing to complain about IMHO.  As someone said earlier, DDs are supposed to be the counterclass to BBs. 

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All good stuff. I always have to keep reminding myself that it’s basically a rock, paper, scissors arcade game with a nice naval theme and awesome graphics. 

So far I’m pretty happy with the end result. We’re going to have some growing pains with the CV rework but I’m sure it will all work out in the end. 

Cheers. 

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Look at the report it look like it cause flooding. 

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