Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
yacskn

PSA: Why You Want To Use AP With Duke of York; or The Best-Kept Secret In The Game

27 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

519
Members
677 posts
17,827 battles

Duke of York got a lot of flak for being a clone of KGV, but being objectively worse when it first came out.

I too was one of those that criticised the ship, mainly for losing so much in comparison to the KGV for a supposed better AA that became non-existent after a couple HE salvos. I played 5 games in it and promptly sold it.

Fast forward to this week when, for one reason or another, I started thinking about it again and wanted to get her back.

So I read a few reviews and watched a few videos and found out that there had been no buffs to it during the course of the last year, at all.

However, I did notice a couple key differences between the KGV and the DoY during my own comparisons based on mined data (which I confirmed through @SeraphicRadiance).

One of the main points of contention of DoY, when it came out, was that it sacrificed nearly 5 seconds of reload time for seemingly no reason at all.

So, here's something practically no one knows.

The reason for the RoF nerf, compared to the KGV, is because the DoY guns have over 40% tighter min. vertical dispersion value and get improved bounce angles on her AP shells.

Her AP bounce threshold is 60 degrees and autobounce is 67.5 degrees. The same as Super Heavy shells on American high tier heavy cruisers.

Every other BB in the game (except the Hood) has 45 and 60 degrees respectively.

As far as I've seen, no reviewer is aware of this fact. Neither on YouTube nor @LittleWhiteMouse here on the forums who, based on her review of the ship, apparently believes the improved bounce angles and dispersion didn't carry over from her initial version. Since improved AP angles was one of the things she raved about on the initial version of the ship, perhaps being aware of this fact might have shifted her opinion of it to "Mehbote" rather than "Garbage".

Anyway, there you go. Finally a reason for you to stop spamming HE in those ships once in a while.

You're welcome.


 

Spoiler

unknown.png


unknown.png

 

 

Edited by yacskn
  • Cool 14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
321 posts
3,009 battles

I always wondered why the success I've had with DoY's AP never seemed to translate to the KGV. Thanks OP!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
86
[S0L0]
Members
293 posts
6,949 battles

Now that cit l I manged to hit on a heavily angled cruiser I gotten yesterday makes sense. He was turning into me then suddenly turned away slightly, so my aim was off, thus the shell hit his belt. Instead of bouncing it penetrated. I thought I somehow over matched, and shrugged it off. I always had good results with DoY's AP. Good to know, thanks!

 

Inkedshot-19.01.03_10.21.49-0608_LI.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,195
[RKLES]
Members
9,925 posts
11,715 battles

Yes that is what I found with the AP on Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Duke of York, and Hood is that despite so many saying to Spam HE, it’s actually the usage of AP that delivers the best results. Now Nelson is harder to say because of how spectacular it’s HE can be, but it’s AP is also not bad.

So back to the matter this thread is about, I have long loved my DOY and I got to that point from being just as skeptical as anyone else based on what all the reviews had been saying. But I wanted Jack Dunkirk to be a 19 point Captain for my Warspite to give her the Captain she deserved. Problem is I could not buy premium time and still can’t. So the solution was to use the Snowy Perma Camo I had gotten from New Years along with the QE to make the ship  like a sort of premium ship with Dunkirk trainee for the QE. I then was passing the Captain between QE and Warspite each day to collect the XP bonuses as a sort of synthetic premium time. I decided might as well make DOY useful and collect its XP bonus and figured surely the ship might be able to do a little something to help trainnthe Captain along with the other ships I was using.

To my surprise DOY did alright and kept doing ever better in my hands, which was rather puzzling and around that time I had figured out that I should use AP instead of the HE. Which can be remarkable on the DOY such as the time I obliterated a CA with just the rear turret causing a citadel for each of the 4 shells around 8km range if I remember correctly.

Yes some complain that the DOY has slightly slower reload than KGV, but I will take that in exchange for hard hitting AP and good dispersion. Other complaints people have is the fact it can only have a max of 4 heals instead of 5, but if you carry premium all your Consumables as premium you often will not even miss the missing heal. Reason why is the hydro which can pick up DDs in smoke for your accurate guns to blow out of the water, and pick up on Torps in time to usually find a way to pass through or avoid safely. So by avoiding or destroying the ships that typically cause the fastest damage to you, it makes the 4 heals more than adequate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,380
[-K-]
Members
6,902 posts
11,447 battles

Good info, especially since Duke of York may be needed to complete one of the tasks in the 3rd stage of the P.E.F. directives.  Need either her or Scharnhorst to destroy 3 ships in one of the tasks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,063
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
7,984 posts
12,400 battles

The AP autobounce angles I knew about, the tighter vertical dispersion is new. I've not noticed any significant improvement in accuracy either way.

Overall, I don't think the AP autobounce angles are worth 4.5s of reload. Better autobounce angles are nice but -

  • Your AP just overmatches T7 and below cruisers anyway, no advantage on their plating
  • Your AP still isn't as good for overmatch as plain old 15in, which you do see at similar ROF at T7
  • Your AP penetration isn't that good - 431mm at 10km, 354mm at 15km. A 300mm belt struck at 65° is effectively 709mm thick. A 200mm belt struck at 65° is effectively 473mm thick. Against 76-127mm cruiser belts there is an advantage but it's fairly niche
  • Without better fuse arming thresholds strikes on 25mm plating at 65° still won't arm and you'll still overpenetrate unless you hit internal plating

Overall, my conclusion is that the better autobounce isn't worth the reload penalty, especially as it's easier to trap broadsiding cruisers turning out with 25s vs. 29.5s reload.

18 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yes that is what I found with the AP on Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Duke of York, and Hood is that despite so many saying to Spam HE, it’s actually the usage of AP that delivers the best results.

Anyone who tells you to spam HE in any of those ships is a prat, please report them to WG for trolling!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
165
[-BMV-]
Members
406 posts
16,504 battles

I have always believed that, of the entire British BB line, only Queen Elizabeth, Duke of York, Monarch and Conqueror have AP reliable enough to completely disregard the HE spam technique. That's why it pisses me off so much seeing HE spam only QE's or Monarchs. The AP on those ships is great and yet many stick with one round type only.

With QE i mostly use AP, almost never load HE. With DoY i constantly switch between AP an HE, but i stick with AP more, same with Monarch and Conqueror.

The British BB line is very curious but rewarding if you actively switch between round types.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,839
[CNO]
Members
5,005 posts
15,785 battles
1 hour ago, yacskn said:

Anyway, there you go. Finally a reason for you to stop spamming HE in those ships once in a while.
 

i was not aware of the tech data you've presented.  That said, I've always gone with AP as my standard load for both ships.  I use HE "situationally",  just like any other BB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30,958
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
10,692 posts
8,770 battles
1 hour ago, yacskn said:

As far as I've seen, no reviewer is aware of this fact. Neither on YouTube nor @LittleWhiteMouse here on the forums who, based on her review of the ship, apparently believes the improved bounce angles and dispersion didn't carry over from her initial version. Since improved AP angles was one of the things she raved about on the initial version of the ship, perhaps being aware of this fact might have shifted her opinion of it to "Mehbote" rather than "Garbage".

Duke of York was overhauled at the eleventh hour before her release -- so suddenly that it invalidated an entire review I had written for her previous iteration (this later was used to write a proposal for Prince of Wales).  There was a long list of changes that occurred:

  • + Limited Repair Party added
  • - Defensive AA Fire removed
  • - Damage Control Party nerfed
  • - Hydroacoustic Search nerfed
  • - Fire damage mitigation nerfed
  • - Rudder shift time nerfed
  • - Main battery sigma nerfed
  • - Main battery reload time nerfed

The goal, as described, was to bring her "closer to classical battleship gameplay".  At the time my review was published, i was unaware that her improved auto-ricochet angles had survived.  Between all of the other changes, the heated conversations and appeals to Wargaming to revert the nerfs and the limited window with which to test and publish, it simply got lost.  Yes, Duke of York does have improved auto-ricochet angles.  It makes her a good cruiser killer and you can do some surprising AP volleys into battleships too.  However, this does not make up for her slower rate of fire compared to King George V. 

The "Garbage" evaluation she received was for being a waste premium -- you're better off saving your money and playing King George V over Duke of York.  She would have to be able to offer some compelling game play reason to play her over the lead of her class to lose the shackle of that rating.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
385
[KSC]
Members
1,051 posts
4,598 battles
39 minutes ago, mofton said:

The AP autobounce angles I knew about, the tighter vertical dispersion is new. I've not noticed any significant improvement in accuracy either way.

Overall, I don't think the AP autobounce angles are worth 4.5s of reload. Better autobounce angles are nice but -

  • Your AP just overmatches T7 and below cruisers anyway, no advantage on their plating
  • Your AP still isn't as good for overmatch as plain old 15in, which you do see at similar ROF at T7
  • Your AP penetration isn't that good - 431mm at 10km, 354mm at 15km. A 300mm belt struck at 65° is effectively 709mm thick. A 200mm belt struck at 65° is effectively 473mm thick. Against 76-127mm cruiser belts there is an advantage but it's fairly niche
  • Without better fuse arming thresholds strikes on 25mm plating at 65° still won't arm and you'll still overpenetrate unless you hit internal plating

Overall, my conclusion is that the better autobounce isn't worth the reload penalty, especially as it's easier to trap broadsiding cruisers turning out with 25s vs. 29.5s reload.

Anyone who tells you to spam HE in any of those ships is a prat, please report them to WG for trolling!

In theory, you are correct.  The autobounce angles do not allow you to reliably pen much more than a few niche belts.  In practice however, I've found USN SHS and the Stalingrad shells to be far, far more effective than you would think.  The autobounce angles allow you to pen bow armor far more reliably, and as seen by shooting at a Yamato with the Stalingrad, you can quite literally one shot it by shooting angled bow armor.  If any T10 BB has it's rear turrets to bear on you, you can punch right through the nose and pen.  It's easier to do in the Stalin due to shell velocity, but works just as well in the DM.  There have been times where a GK rushed me in my Des Moines, and I was able to citadel him through that 50mm plate as he was turning out to get the rear guns on bearing.  If I didn't have the improved auto bounce, I would have ricocheted the shells, and wouldn't have been able to chunk him.  

You can use the same logic with the DoY guns.  It will allow you to pen things far, far more reliably if you know where to aim to exploit it, thus dealing significantly more damage per salvo.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30,958
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
10,692 posts
8,770 battles
23 minutes ago, XpliCT_ said:

You can use the same logic with the DoY guns.  It will allow you to pen things far, far more reliably if you know where to aim to exploit it, thus dealing significantly more damage per salvo.  

Here's the issue though, when compared to King George V:  The improved autobounce mechanics, as nice as they are, do not make up for the fact that:

  • (A)  You sacrifice 18% of your damage output potential for it.
  • (B)  The instances where you can deal AP damage aren't binary -- it doesn't allow Duke of York to deal damage when King George V could not.  It simply allows Duke of York to deal a different kind of damage.  King George V would simply use HE in those scenarios.

So the question becomes if being able to exploit the autobounce mechanics (and the increase damage from Duke of York's AP shells vs King George V's HE, criticals + fires) offsets the reload time disparity between the two ships.

-edit - Had Duke of York preserved her rate of fire (or if the gap wasn't so significant) we might be having a different conversation.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
385
[KSC]
Members
1,051 posts
4,598 battles
13 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Here's the issue though, when compared to King George V:  The improved autobounce mechanics, as nice as they are, do not make up for the fact that:

  • (A)  You sacrifice 18% of your damage output potential for it.
  • (B)  The instances where you can deal AP damage aren't binary -- it doesn't allow Duke of York to deal damage when King George V could not.  It simply allows Duke of York to deal a different kind of damage.  King George V would simply use HE in those scenarios.

So the question becomes if being able to exploit the autobounce mechanics (and the increase damage from Duke of York's AP shells vs King George V's HE, criticals + fires) offsets the reload time disparity between the two ships.

-edit - Had Duke of York preserved her rate of fire (or if the gap wasn't so significant) we might be having a different conversation.

I get that completely.  I was moreso stating the fact that the autobounce angles have more benefit than simply a few niche cruiser belts.  I'm not sure if the DoY and the KGV have identical HE shell performance, if they do, I can see why WG decided to nerf the reload.  I can't say if it's worth, mostly because I don't have enough playtime in either ship.  

I can say that I would rather fire AP in BBs over HE, UK BBs included.  Each shell type has their time to be used, but I have always found that firing AP will lead to causing more damage than HE, on a more consistent basis.  Any ship that has the improved autobounce angles, I tend to enjoy because I know how to use the angles.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
258
[RLGN]
Members
782 posts
6,191 battles
1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yes that is what I found with the AP on Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Duke of York, and Hood is that despite so many saying to Spam HE, it’s actually the usage of AP that delivers the best results. Now Nelson is harder to say because of how spectacular it’s HE can be, but it’s AP is also not bad.

I've had the Warspite for a while and it's why I usually use AP in the Queen Elizabeth.  It's worth noting that the Warspite, having come out long before the introduction of the actual line, does NOT have the improved HE of her sister ship.  I mostly use AP in the QE anyway, but in Warspite it's necessary, its HE is objectively worse.

 

That said I didn't know about the DoY autobounce angles.  Thanks for the information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,034
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
4,637 posts

I did pretty well in DoY the other day using her AP mostly.  I might give her another shot.  I really WANT to like the ship.  It's just been impossible so far.

I just hope that they buff her someday.  Maybe giver her a full heal suite, and 2 secs of reload?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
100
[KOOKS]
Beta Testers
282 posts
10,571 battles
30 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

I did pretty well in DoY the other day using her AP mostly.  I might give her another shot.  I really WANT to like the ship.  It's just been impossible so far.

I just hope that they buff her someday.  Maybe giver her a full heal suite, and 2 secs of reload?

oh yes... everybody wants a buff for the DoY... please. Gorgeous and famous ship, but given for free so it had to be mediocre... Cmon WG, DoY deserves a buff, specially on RoF. And not so many players have it nowadays :)

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,034
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
4,637 posts
48 minutes ago, Fastwolf66 said:

oh yes... everybody wants a buff for the DoY... please. Gorgeous and famous ship, but given for free so it had to be mediocre... Cmon WG, DoY deserves a buff, specially on RoF. And not so many players have it nowadays :)

Well now that we're well past the campaign for her. . . if they want to make money selling her in the future, they should buff her.  She's a tough sell right now.  Glad I paid 0.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17
[D33P6]
Members
201 posts
12,063 battles

FWIW, I had good games in DoY as soon as I got her, and that continued.  Higher than KG.

Maybe its just karma/good vibes.  This song goes through my head every time I play her, and as the song says, nothing can stop, the Duke of ...

As for why to play her, initially because of the campaign, and afterwards...because that ICY camo is super cool!

I've also found that, in general, AP from British BB's is too much of a secret.  But, shhhhh, we should keep it that way!

Edited by DrunkenSailor63

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,380
[-K-]
Members
6,902 posts
11,447 battles

Played a match with Duke of York last night, not only to confirm this evidence, but also to complete one of the directives for the P.E.F. campaign.  Did find the salvos to be pretty tight with dispersion, and the bounce angles did seem pretty favorable, despite the fact it was in a T9 match.  +1 to OP for giving us the heads up on this info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
519
Members
677 posts
17,827 battles
On 1/3/2019 at 7:33 PM, LittleWhiteMouse said:

However, this does not make up for her slower rate of fire compared to King George V. 

No, it doesn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,034
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
4,637 posts

Still trying with DoY.  Still significantly inferior to KGV.  Not giving up yet, although I should.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,633
[_-_]
Members
2,307 posts
6,922 battles
On 1/3/2019 at 10:54 AM, Sidelock said:

The British BB line is very curious but rewarding if you actively switch between round types.

Bingo, that's the trick.

Once you get used to what target angles demand which ammo, the RN BB line becomes more effective than always using HE. I figured that out on the Hood. I'll have to give DoY another go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
25 posts
3,145 battles

Well personally giving DoY 28 second reload(1.5 sec buff) and 0.02 -ish(which is between that of RN BB and the others) would be fine.

Making DoY's heal packs perform between current one and Nelson's could work too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,589 posts
9,247 battles

I never found the AP to be all that amazing except vs cruisers.   Similar story for the KGV.   The amount of times i shot broadside BBs at med/long range just to do little damage because either the shells bounced, missed(more so with KGV), shattered(a lot of this) or even when i penned, did little damage(no pen damage ftw) made me just wish i stuck to HE more.  The damage per Ap shell isn't that amazing either compared to the larger guns in your tier.  Considering in your MM bracket, you can cit cruisers with HE, plus now with the BB AP changes vs DDs, sticking with HE most of the time isn't a bad idea.  There are certainly times you should use AP, but more often than not the raw HE damage plus fires is worth more.(if a CV is in the match, you do them the favor of removing all of the enemy AA)  The HE helps quite a bit when you are bottom tier.   Even those tier 9 BBs will be roasting. 

 

the hydro is really meh.  I think i can count on my hands the amount of times it has detected an enemy or helped me dodge torps.  maybe if i had vigilance, it would be a bit better.  still, pretty useless for me. 

 

1 less heal had bit me in the rear a lot.   because you get one less heal, you have to be careful about the amount of fires you let burn, and for how long. 

 

the slower reload is pretty painful as well.  I am pretty sure  a few of my loses would of been wins had i been in the KGV.   if not, i would of certainly done better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×