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Happy668

Buff AA alone is not going to fix the problem

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it only will make CV more selective at picking target, in other words, it will make the life of weak AA ship even bigger hell

if AA is not effective across the board, CV won't care about picking target so bombing could spread over all ships. by buffing AA, CV will pick the ship with weakest AA and focus bombing it all game long

to really solve CV problem,

1) need to reduce attack frequency, so ships picked on don't have to deal with CV attack continuously doing nothing else

2) make AA more even across all ships, so CV will spread out attacks on all ships instead of focusing on the weakest

3) make planes limited so can reduce CV effect over time, just like other ships losing health or sink

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AA on ships is both part of national flavor as well as "paper ship" flexibility, combined with module and captain skill load outs.

Players have a choice.  You can choose AA builds or survival builds, or things inbetween.  

If a player chooses to NOT have AA (either by running a ship that has low AA in general or just not spec'ing for AA) then that player is doing so as a choice.  And must deal with the consequences.  If no CV shows up...great.  If a CV does show up, then ADAPT.  Make friends with good AA ships.

Even in today's meta, good CV captains go after ships with weak AA...or ships that are outside of protecting bubbles.  Nothing should change much once they get the new CV mechanic down.  If you have good AA, expect to NOT get focused.  If you have bad AA, expect to get focused...UNLESS you make friends with ships with good AA.

Choosing AA builds...and expected to get a payoff from the build is PART OF THE GAME.  Same for not having a good build.  

Again, this should hold once the new mechanic is massaged.  Good AA will be "good" AA.  Bad AA will be "bad" AA.  Get the benefit or pay the price.

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2 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

AA on ships is both part of national flavor as well as "paper ship" flexibility, combined with module and captain skill load outs.

Players have a choice.  You can choose AA builds or survival builds, or things inbetween.  

If a player chooses to NOT have AA (either by running a ship that has low AA in general or just not spec'ing for AA) then that player is doing so as a choice.  And must deal with the consequences.  If no CV shows up...great.  If a CV does show up, then ADAPT.  Make friends with good AA ships.

Even in today's meta, good CV captains go after ships with weak AA...or ships that are outside of protecting bubbles.  Nothing should change much once they get the new CV mechanic down.  If you have good AA, expect to NOT get focused.  If you have bad AA, expect to get focused...UNLESS you make friends with ships with good AA.

Choosing AA builds...and expected to get a payoff from the build is PART OF THE GAME.  Same for not having a good build.  

Again, this should hold once the new mechanic is massaged.  Good AA will be "good" AA.  Bad AA will be "bad" AA.  Get the benefit or pay the price.

Well said

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11 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

AA on ships is both part of national flavor as well as "paper ship" flexibility, combined with module and captain skill load outs.

Players have a choice.  You can choose AA builds or survival builds, or things inbetween.  

If a player chooses to NOT have AA (either by running a ship that has low AA in general or just not spec'ing for AA) then that player is doing so as a choice.  And must deal with the consequences.  If no CV shows up...great.  If a CV does show up, then ADAPT.  Make friends with good AA ships.

Even in today's meta, good CV captains go after ships with weak AA...or ships that are outside of protecting bubbles.  Nothing should change much once they get the new CV mechanic down.  If you have good AA, expect to NOT get focused.  If you have bad AA, expect to get focused...UNLESS you make friends with ships with good AA.

Choosing AA builds...and expected to get a payoff from the build is PART OF THE GAME.  Same for not having a good build.  

Again, this should hold once the new mechanic is massaged.  Good AA will be "good" AA.  Bad AA will be "bad" AA.  Get the benefit or pay the price.

the "build" or "not build" AA makes much less difference than the ship itself, CV will avoid DM regardless of if it has "AA build" or not, but will attack Musashi even if it has "AA build", very little you can do if your ship has weakest AA to begin with

Edited by Happy668

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7 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

AA on ships is both part of national flavor as well as "paper ship" flexibility, combined with module and captain skill load outs.

Players have a choice.  You can choose AA builds or survival builds, or things inbetween.  

If a player chooses to NOT have AA (either by running a ship that has low AA in general or just not spec'ing for AA) then that player is doing so as a choice.  And must deal with the consequences.  If no CV shows up...great.  If a CV does show up, then ADAPT.  Make friends with good AA ships.

Even in today's meta, good CV captains go after ships with weak AA...or ships that are outside of protecting bubbles.  Nothing should change much once they get the new CV mechanic down.  If you have good AA, expect to NOT get focused.  If you have bad AA, expect to get focused...UNLESS you make friends with ships with good AA.

Choosing AA builds...and expected to get a payoff from the build is PART OF THE GAME.  Same for not having a good build.  

Again, this should hold once the new mechanic is massaged.  Good AA will be "good" AA.  Bad AA will be "bad" AA.  Get the benefit or pay the price.

I disagree. As long as CVs have unlimited planes, and I can't even shave hit points or reduce the carriers fighting capacity by doing damage, AA builds or not won't matter.

The pool of HP for planes is bottomless so whatever damage I can do is absorbed, AA build only increases the damage which is absorbed.

No pun intended, but this design isn't going to fly

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17 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

AA on ships is both part of national flavor as well as "paper ship" flexibility, combined with module and captain skill load outs.

Players have a choice.  You can choose AA builds or survival builds, or things inbetween.  

If a player chooses to NOT have AA (either by running a ship that has low AA in general or just not spec'ing for AA) then that player is doing so as a choice.  And must deal with the consequences.  If no CV shows up...great.  If a CV does show up, then ADAPT.  Make friends with good AA ships.

Even in today's meta, good CV captains go after ships with weak AA...or ships that are outside of protecting bubbles.  Nothing should change much once they get the new CV mechanic down.  If you have good AA, expect to NOT get focused.  If you have bad AA, expect to get focused...UNLESS you make friends with ships with good AA.

Choosing AA builds...and expected to get a payoff from the build is PART OF THE GAME.  Same for not having a good build.  

Again, this should hold once the new mechanic is massaged.  Good AA will be "good" AA.  Bad AA will be "bad" AA.  Get the benefit or pay the price.

Too bad there are premiums that people paid for that have bad AA huh? The only reason they aren't too bad atm is the rarity of CVs. After the rework Arizona, mutsu, and WV 41 for example will become damage pinatas for CVs despite any captain builds.

Edited by Krupp_Sabot
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8 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

the "build" or "not build" AA makes much less difference than the ship itself, CV will avoid DM regardless of if it has "AA build" or not, but will attack Musashi even if it has "AA build", very little you can do if your ship has weakest AA to begin with

Hmm... my AA spec fletcher says otherwise... unless its the mithril adamantium alloy midway planes are made of my little bb gun dd shreds some planes. New meta with cv rework will demand some tough choices for ship choice, mod choice, and captain skill choice... some will adapt... some will whinge on the forums... others will push alongside and guard their cruisers a little better... 

I like choices... I like cvs although not in their current form... just bring their influence and importance in line with dds and we are set. 

Edited by Xanshin

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24 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

AA on ships is both part of national flavor as well as "paper ship" flexibility, combined with module and captain skill load outs.

Players have a choice.  You can choose AA builds or survival builds, or things inbetween.  

If a player chooses to NOT have AA (either by running a ship that has low AA in general or just not spec'ing for AA) then that player is doing so as a choice.  And must deal with the consequences.  If no CV shows up...great.  If a CV does show up, then ADAPT.  Make friends with good AA ships.

Even in today's meta, good CV captains go after ships with weak AA...or ships that are outside of protecting bubbles.  Nothing should change much once they get the new CV mechanic down.  If you have good AA, expect to NOT get focused.  If you have bad AA, expect to get focused...UNLESS you make friends with ships with good AA.

Choosing AA builds...and expected to get a payoff from the build is PART OF THE GAME.  Same for not having a good build.  

Again, this should hold once the new mechanic is massaged.  Good AA will be "good" AA.  Bad AA will be "bad" AA.  Get the benefit or pay the price.

You don't need to just make friend with A good "AA ship, you only have to group up.

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Any ship can delete any other ship in one "salvo". So why are you whining and demanding that CVs should not be able to do so?

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1 minute ago, Nergy said:

Any ship can delete any other ship in one "salvo". So why are you whining and demanding that CVs should not be able to do so?

What if the planes had a 20km range like a BB has with AP?  That would even things up.

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8 minutes ago, Nergy said:

Any ship can delete any other ship in one "salvo". So why are you whining and demanding that CVs should not be able to do so?

even if my CA is facing BB, he can't delete my ship in 1 salvo if i know how to evade and angle, hack he can't delete me even in 10 salvo, in other words, i have counter and it's just a matter of learning it. but right now when CV cross drop on my BB, there's nothing i can do. in the new CV, he can just send waves after waves of planes to bomb me, and there's nothing i can do

Edited by Happy668

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18 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

the "build" or "not build" AA makes much less difference than the ship itself, CV will avoid DM regardless of if it has "AA build" or not, but will attack Musashi even if it has "AA build", very little you can do if your ship has weakest AA to begin with

It’s called grouping up and learning to WASD.

As I always say; that battleship over there MIGHT damage or sink me if I turn, those incoming torpies probably will if I don’t.

1 minute ago, Nergy said:

Any ship can delete any other ship in one "salvo". So why are you whining and demanding that CVs should not be able to do so?

Exactly.

Though most of the crying is about not being able to shoot back at the carrier.

At the moment I’m thinking things will be even worse under the new system.

In RTS there is at least the chance to deplane a carrier; under the FPS that is removed.

Random players will now learn the ‘joy’ Co-op players have enjoyed of not being able to do anything for an entire game because a bot CV decides you’re ‘it,’ and attacks you for the entire game.

3 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

even if my CA is facing BB, he can't delete my ship in 1 salvo if i know how to evade and angle, hack he can't delete me even in 10 salvo, in other words, i have counter and it's just a matter of learning it. but right now when CV cross drop on my BB, there's nothing i can do. in the new CV, he can just send waves after waves of planes to bomb me, and there's nothing i can do

Welcome to the world many have been screaming for.

Carriers were nerfed into oblivion, damage wise, but as a ‘balance comrade!’ measure, now never run out of planes.

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Seems to me that the weak AA ships need to make good friends with the friendly CV and beg them to poop out fighters over their ship whenever possible.

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OP states: "in the new CV, he can just send waves after waves of planes to bomb me, and there's nothing i can do"  Utter bull crap!   The new CVs do not get waves after waves of planes. In fact, their total damage output is much less than present.  One squadron airborne at a time, 2-4 planes actually attacking from that squadron at a time.  If 2 planes attacking you is too many, UNINSTALL!

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1 hour ago, Happy668 said:

it only will make CV more selective at picking target, in other words, it will make the life of weak AA ship even bigger hell

if AA is not effective across the board, CV won't care about picking target so bombing could spread over all ships. by buffing AA, CV will pick the ship with weakest AA and focus bombing it all game long

to really solve CV problem,

1) need to reduce attack frequency, so ships picked on don't have to deal with CV attack continuously doing nothing else

2) make AA more even across all ships, so CV will spread out attacks on all ships instead of focusing on the weakest

3) make planes limited so can reduce CV effect over time, just like other ships losing health or sink

I don't want AA to be more even across all ships - the game doesn't need to continue to get more dumbed down and unrealistic. What I want is for AA to be at least as effective as it currently is, and for carriers to return to having a finite amount of aircraft so they actually have to THINK about what they are doing (like with the rest of us), and so there are consequences for failure (like with the rest of us).

Giving a CV infinite planes is like giving a battleship endless heals on a 30-second timer. It's stupid. The massive AA nerf is just gratuitous on top of it.

Edited by Battlecruiser_Kongo

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48 minutes ago, Nergy said:

Any ship can delete any other ship in one "salvo". So why are you whining and demanding that CVs should not be able to do so?

Because they take no risk when the attack ships. Any BB that attempts to one-shot a cruiser takes risks. Any DD that attempts to torp another ship takes risks. 

CVs never risk themselves in their attacks. It's totally unethical to play them or put them in the game. Fundamentally they don't belong in this game. 

Edited by Taichunger
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1 hour ago, Nergy said:

Any ship can delete any other ship in one "salvo". So why are you whining and demanding that CVs should not be able to do so?

Not a CV fan, but to answer your question, against ships, there is almost always a counter to getting one-shot killed. Don't sail in straight lines, use cover and concealment, don't go broadside to enemy ships, etc. In the current game, if a good CV player wants to get you, short of smiling with a group, they will get you. If you are in a BB vs a Midway, you are probably going to die to a combo of cross top and dive bombers. If your AA isn't up to the challenge, nothing you can do in game to mitigate the attack. This is the frustration.

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CVs will always be annoying to surface ships until there is a manual element to AA, because until then you will always be at the complete mercy of RNG.  You just get better RNG with an AA build

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Yeah, I already focus ships I know have weak AA in my carriers, especially when the player sailing it is an idiot and sails off alone. Nothing as easy a target for a Midway (Or any tier 7-10 carrier) than seeing a Musashi alone on a flank.

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25 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Because they take no risk when the attack ships. Any BB that attempts to one-shot a cruiser takes risks. Any DD that attempts to torp another ship takes risks. 

CVs never risk themselves in their attacks. It's totally unethical to play them or put them in the game. Fundamentally they don't belong in this game. 

Unethical? Really? It’s true that more changes than just AA may be needed to balance out the unlimited planes. The time of readying up a new plane on deck for example is something that will probably see a lot of adjustments over coming weeks after 8.0. The idea of always regenerating planes I think can work if it’s balanced properly. 

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4 hours ago, Happy668 said:

the "build" or "not build" AA makes much less difference than the ship itself, CV will avoid DM regardless of if it has "AA build" or not, but will attack Musashi even if it has "AA build", very little you can do if your ship has weakest AA to begin with

 

Correct.  There are some ships that there isn't much you can do...the ship's AA is just poor.  And enhancing poor usually results in "enhanced poor".  But that is the CHOICE that is Musashi.  You get T10 BB armor!  And 18 inches of main armament alpha dog overmatch punch.  That is the trade off.  And let's not forget the "national flavor".  Musashi was a TBD magnet in the real world.  I sense a bit that WG had this in mind.

When I take Musashi out today, I'm very cognizant if a CV is in play...and have to take that into account when positioning or moving with the fleet.  This mindset should not change much with the new CVs.   

 

 

4 hours ago, Wombatmetal said:

I disagree. As long as CVs have unlimited planes, and I can't even shave hit points or reduce the carriers fighting capacity by doing damage, AA builds or not won't matter.

The pool of HP for planes is bottomless so whatever damage I can do is absorbed, AA build only increases the damage which is absorbed.

No pun intended, but this design isn't going to fly

 

I'm pretty sure when this is massaged out properly, CV captains will pay a very dear price for picking on high AA ships or high AA groups.  Infinite supply is metered by "cool down".  As a CV captain, you have the choice of picking on low AA ships and getting back into action much more quickly...or picking on high AA ships and paying the price of having to wait longer on cool down...being out of action with those aircraft (or in action with fewer to fly).  I don't see much of a change.  Damage done...yeah.  Cool down changes...yeah.  Some iterations to get it all ironed out....yeah.   But the basic value of good AA and bad AA....once it's all ironed out...the basic tenets will remain.

 

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The only reason why I think they have unlimited planes is because they expect AA to shoot down lots of planes or they screwed up balancing again and we are going to be Beta testers. 

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5 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

If you have bad AA, expect to get focused...UNLESS you make friends with ships with good AA.

This has some truth and merit to it. BUT...

This is a really weak and tired excuse. Normally this particular line is tossed out by the types that laugh at the idea of teamwork (not directing this at you, Sosh...just a general statement) because they are playing a game that rewards selfish, solo play.

What about the low tier/slow BBs? Are cruisers going to hold back and provide AA screening? Probably not as there are no rewards for escorting or team play. A slow moving or predictable cruiser is even more a cit magnet.

Mid to high tier your good AA ships like (certain) cruisers are running for islands to hump and spam HE.

 Ever try to stay with the AA bubble of a Dallas or Pepsi when driving NM?  If you straggle up them in their island abode you are likely out of the fight.

The new CV rework may change the "me" oriented mindset but I have my doubts.

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49 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

 

I'm pretty sure when this is massaged out properly, CV captains will pay a very dear price for picking on high AA ships or high AA groups.  Infinite supply is metered by "cool down".  As a CV captain, you have the choice of picking on low AA ships and getting back into action much more quickly...or picking on high AA ships and paying the price of having to wait longer on cool down...being out of action with those aircraft (or in action with fewer to fly).  I don't see much of a change.  Damage done...yeah.  Cool down changes...yeah.  Some iterations to get it all ironed out....yeah.   But the basic value of good AA and bad AA....once it's all ironed out...the basic tenets will remain.

 

A skipper invests in BFT, AFT, and Manual Control, buys an AA module for an upgrade, a huge investment game wise, and the opposing carrier with 1 point captain can send wave after waver after wave until his DFAA runs out and then he's an easy target. This one player with a huge investment cannot damage the CV beyond influencing the cool down. 

It's just uneven game play. One thing I have learned from gaming is players hate more than anything, taking damage from something without being able to damage back. This is that in spades

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41 minutes ago, BBsquid said:

This is a really weak and tired excuse. Normally this particular line is tossed out by the types that laugh at the idea of teamwork (not directing this at you, Sosh...just a general statement) because they are playing a game that rewards selfish, solo play.

Bear in mind that NA server is the smallest population. The rest of the servers tend to grouped together or "ball up" (Russian melee craziness), which has the advantage of overlapping AA not to mention having concentration of firepower in such local area. Basically servers outside NA are more "team-minded", more or less and this will reflect on the server stats the WG pulls to see how the servers and ships are doing.

Edited by Hurlbut

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