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Gavroche_

Why you cannot have a button allow players to choose CV/no CV games.

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This is a topic that comes up amazing often in the forums.

People ask for a gamemode/option to choose between wanting to play with CVs in a game or having a CV-free game. There are many issues with this, some of which I will cover.

1. AA is a balancing mechanic. Ships have strong AA as a stat to cover other weakness (e.g. high tier U.S. cruisers have good AA as partial compensation for their inability to open water gunboat.) Changing CVs changes the value that AA provides a ship and would probably necessitate rebalancing many ships.

2. Only ships with good AA would ever want to play with CVs. Ships such as Altanta, Worcester, Kii favor CV games while ships such as Musashi, Atago, and Tirpitz do not. This would mean that:

        i. The CV enabled games would be filled with strong AA ships, making CVs severely underpowered. We could rework AA around this, but that would require effort by the devs to fine tune it and in the end, we would just unbalance CVs even more.

       ii. CVs players would suffer (think sub 20k average dmg for Midway) and nobody would every play CVs.

                   a. This would lead to long queue times for CVs. This would lead to further reduction in CV players, assuming that number isn't zero already.

3. A change this significant would definitely affect the premium CVs. Wargamming tries it's absolute hardest not to touch premium ships.

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If allowing players to opt out of playing with CV's would hurt the CV population and it's ability to play, that means there is a problem with CV's..

Could it be, perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, that CV's never should have been introduced at all, that the entire idea of them is wrongheaded, and that WG cutting their losses and deleting the dammed things would be better for the game than continued attempts to shoehorn in  broken class using broken mechanics that exists solely to make the game less enjoyable for everyone else?

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1 hour ago, Highlord said:

If allowing players to opt out of playing with CV's would hurt the CV population and its ability to play, that means there is a problem with CV's..

Could it be, perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, that CV's never should have been introduced at all, that the entire idea of them is wrongheaded, and that WG cutting their losses and deleting the damned things would be better for the game than continued attempts to shoehorn in  broken class using broken mechanics that exists solely to make the game less enjoyable for everyone else?

To add a little to what Gavroche_ is say if we allow a simple game option to remove them where does it stop, do we add one for each class so you can play only DD vs DD? In my mind it's to slippery a slope to just start removing classes. I can empathize with your frustration I felt that way when radar was added as a DD main I thought was days were numbered in this game, but a few growing pains later and I still go out and put a hurt on CAs with my Kidd or Shima. So I say let's relax and wait for it to fully release. Lets get some numbers in so WG has data to review. I have faith they want there game to do well just as much as we do.  

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Edited by Malarkey_

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Adding in an option to play with or without CVs will dramatically hurt CV pops that are in-game. We have all gotten so used to playing without CVs that we now have to deal with them. Yes, many people get annoyed playing against them, but it is a part of the game. Adapt and overcome. Does your ship have weak AA then stick with a strong AA cruiser.  The CV's add another layer of gameplay to the game that is just currently missing.  We are all used to the current meta of radar cruisers and hydro. Hopefully, wargaming makes the carrier re-work appealing and the carrier UI easy to work. 

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16 minutes ago, Highlord said:

If allowing players to opt out of playing with CV's would hurt the CV population and it's ability to play, that means there is a problem with CV's..

Could it be, perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, that CV's never should have been introduced at all, that the entire idea of them is wrongheaded, and that WG cutting their losses and deleting the dammed things would be better for the game than continued attempts to shoehorn in  broken class using broken mechanics that exists solely to make the game less enjoyable for everyone else?

To be fair, allowing players to opt out of facing ANY CLASS would hurt that class' population. Do you think that most BBs want to fight DDs? Or that most Cruiser captains wouldn't gladly opt out of seeing BBs? That in and of itself doesn't mean that a class is broken, it means that Scissors would be happier without Rock to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I think that WG's implementation of CVs is deeply flawed, but it's a more nuanced issue than what's being let on here.

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Just now, tomcat0870 said:

Adapt and overcome. Does your ship have weak AA then stick with a strong AA cruiser

Tell that to the cruisers that run off to make sweet love to islands while doing little else.  "IS TEEM GAEM!" is a completely baseless excuse for anything when there's no way to actually enforce it.

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10 minutes ago, Highlord said:

If allowing players to opt out of playing with CV's would hurt the CV population and it's ability to play, that means there is a problem with CV's..

Could it be, perhaps, and I'm just spitballing here, that CV's never should have been introduced at all, that the entire idea of them is wrongheaded, and that WG cutting their losses and deleting the dammed things would be better for the game than continued attempts to shoehorn in  broken class using broken mechanics that exists solely to make the game less enjoyable for everyone else?

Imagine I'm a battleship main, and I try to assert this line of reasoning.

If allowing players to opt out of playing with DDs would hurt the DD population and it's ability to play, that means there is a problem with DD's.

 

Well, if you remove DDs it's true that BB players would be much happier. Similarly, it's just the way it is that some ships are strong against CVs and some ships are weak. There are problems with CVs, however, not having the option to opt out is not one of them.

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1 minute ago, SkaerKrow said:

To be fair, allowing players to opt out of facing ANY CLASS would hurt that class' population. Do you think that most BBs want to fight DDs? Or that most Cruiser captains wouldn't gladly opt out of seeing BBs? That in and of itself doesn't mean that a class is broken, it means that Scissors would be happier without Rock to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I think that WG's implementation of CVs is deeply flawed, but it's a more nuanced issue than what's being let on here.

You can fight against a DD as a BB and win. You cannot fight a CV on the other side of the map as a BB and win for example. There's no counter play.

WG has a great rock/paper/scissors system going. Adding a chainsaw to it doesn't help. It feels forced.

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Just make AA overpowered for all ships and let CV's die peacefully.

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2 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

You can fight against a DD as a BB and win. You cannot fight a CV on the other side of the map as a BB and win for example. There's no counter play.

WG has a great rock/paper/scissors system going. Adding a chainsaw to it doesn't help. It feels forced.

You are completely right. But adding better AA to ships could help against carriers. But just opting out of going to battle with them would just kill off the carriers. 

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1 minute ago, tomcat0870 said:

You are completely right. But adding better AA to ships could help against carriers. But just opting out of going to battle with them would just kill off the carriers. 

I just got out of a ranked sprint match where we had a CV each side. Right out of the gates the enemy team CV sniped our CV. The next 15 mins of losing slowly due to his airplanes running amok sealed our loss. All due to one ship.

It's just plain and simply NOT fun to have carriers around. They ruin what is otherwise a enjoyable game. Killing them off would be a good thing for the long term health of this game.

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I say put in the option to do CVs or no CVs for a patch and see what happens. If the majority says no CVs then no CVs. Doesn't hurt to see what happens.

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9 minutes ago, Highlord said:

Tell that to the cruisers that run off to make sweet love to islands while doing little else. 

As long as Cruisers get easily deleted by BBs you're going to continue to see that. At least CA/CLs don't hug the map edge.

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Just now, bohica_2017 said:

I say put in the option to do CVs or no CVs for a patch and see what happens. If the majority says no CVs then no CVs. Doesn't hurt to see what happens.

They won't give us that choice because they KNOW without a doubt that if the players had control of this in any way carriers wouldn't be played with at all bar the few that like them. They would rather stuff this new idea down our throats and use us to test it.

 

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NO-CV MODE??  Everyone takes off Defensive AA and puts HYDRO AND RADAR. 

DDs, smoke, and torpedos are then useless.  

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they already put in so much man-hour $$$$$, if you scratch CV someone will be fired, if you add a button to opt out, all there will be left will be 24 CVs duke each other out, that will be pretty, i want to be spectator lol

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11 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

You can fight against a DD as a BB and win. You cannot fight a CV on the other side of the map as a BB and win for example. There's no counter play.

WG has a great rock/paper/scissors system going. Adding a chainsaw to it doesn't help. It feels forced.

Which does not at all change the fact that BBs would opt out of games with DDs, or Cruisers out of games with BBs. People almost always gravitate towards the path of least resistance. Maybe you think that CVs are overpowered? That's fine, but the fact that some people would choose to avoid them if they could is not evidence supporting that belief.

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Just now, SkaerKrow said:

Which does not at all change the fact that BBs would opt out of games with DDs, or Cruisers out of games with BBs. People almost always gravitate towards the path of least resistance. Maybe you think that CVs are overpowered? That's fine, but the fact that some people would choose to avoid them if they could is not evidence supporting that belief.

They don't fit with the rest of the ships at all on any level. Risk V reward is skewed hugely in favor of the CV against all three ship types.

However we know that a well played DD will eat a BB. A well played CA will eat a DD. A well played BB will eat a CA. These three have been balanced against each other.

Carriers on the other hand will eat anyone with no real counter play.

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Because it is called the word of war ships and not the world of gun ships.

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Honestly, they should just remove carriers entirely at this point.  They don't fit into the game.  They've never fit into the game.  The rework isn't going to make them fit into the game.  As it stands, when I see a CV match, my only thought is, "well, I hope this one player with a wildly disproportionate influence over the outcome of the game doesn't suck."  

 

I can carry a team with a useless battleship, cruiser, or even a potato destroyer.  But a bad CV?  You cannot carry that team to victory, no matter how well you play.

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8 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

They don't fit with the rest of the ships at all on any level. Risk V reward is skewed hugely in favor of the CV against all three ship types.

However we know that a well played DD will eat a BB. A well played CA will eat a DD. A well played BB will eat a CA. These three have been balanced against each other.

Carriers on the other hand will eat anyone with no real counter play.

well, hopefully when Subs make their appearance in the future it might curb CVs. I just played a game where each team had t10 CVs and it was just nasty. Playing as  GK I am a prime target for carriers and DDs. 

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The only thing I disagree with is the part about open water gunboating. It works just fine for me. I rather enjoy tempting and tormenting the big baddies with my squishy XP pinata. :Smile_trollface:

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21 minutes ago, Swift_Scythe said:

NO-CV MODE??  Everyone takes off Defensive AA and puts HYDRO AND RADAR. 

DDs, smoke, and torpedos are then useless.  

That's what most ships are using now since CVs are uncommon. In CW everyone runs smoke and hydro builds but torps are quite useful.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Malarkey_ said:

Well CVs where on of if not the most important part able naval combat during WW2 and years to come so not adding them would be like not adding TD to WoT. to add a little to what Gavroche_ is say if we allow a simple game option to remove them where does it stop, do we add one for each class so you can play only DD vs DD? In my mind it's to slippery a slope to just start removing classes. I can empathize with your frustration I felt that way when radar was added as a DD main I thought was days were numbered in this game, but a few growing pains later and I still go out and put a hurt on CAs with my Kidd or Shima. So I say let's relax and wait for it to fully release. Lets get some numbers in so WG has data to review. I have faith they want there game to do well just as much as we do.  

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I love these arguments....

You do realize that fleet to fleet engagements pretty much became a thing of the past after CV's became preeminent right?

Perhaps they should just change the name of the game to world of CV's...:Smile_teethhappy:

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At this point just make CVs into bots, like in scenarios. Maybe add the ability to make requests of your team's bot. At least the bot CVs would be evenly matched, and provide variation between CV and Non-CV games. Maintains the balance of AA heavy and AA light ships versus there other strengths and weaknesses.

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