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capncrunch21

AA increase on PTS - a concern

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With the recent announcement that the effectiveness of AA is increasing dramatically on PTS for the CV rework, I am concerned.

Currently CV planes in the new system do very little damage with each pass - the complete opposite of the "alpha strike" one-attack-a-ship-is-dead model of old the RTS system. This 'death by a thousand cuts' paradigm essentially makes new CVs very long range Light Cruisers (think Atlanta spamming HE from behind an island). Their airplanes are their 'shells' that have a very long hang time - but shells that trade enormous range for the downside of being able to be knocked out of the air in addition to being dodged.

My concern is that if WG increases AA too much, that the new CVs become ineffective at being 'death by a thousand cuts' Light Cruisers since their planes can't get through. This mean no one will want to play them because they cant deal ANY damage. So WG will increase the damage that individual planes do, meaning that that if even ONE gets through it will do enormous damage. Aaaaaannnnnnndddd…. we're right back to the old model with CV's insta-deleting ships with a single attack.

Please WG, be careful here. Right now the new model on PTS puts CVs on the same playing field as other ships, they are neither to strong or too weak with the damage they do (again, they are very much like long ranged cruisers with good radar), please don't go overboard because people are still locked into the old model mentality that planes have to be shot done in droves over ships when they attack. Planes don't do the same damage as they once did. Coming under attack by aircraft now is really no different that being shot at by a HE spamming cruiser (in fact, I'd rather be attacked by aircraft in the new model than become the attention of an Atlanta or Worchester  - those ships do WAY more damage to DDs and other ships than new airplanes do - and people have ZERO chance shoot down their shells.)

 

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3 minutes ago, capncrunch21 said:

Please WG, be careful here. Right now the new model on PTS puts CVs on the same playing field as other ships, they are neither to strong or too weak with the damage they do (again, they are very much like long ranged cruisers with good radar), please don't go overboard because people are still locked into the old model mentality that planes have to be shot done in droves over ships when they attack. Planes don't do the same damage as they once did. Coming under attack by aircraft now is really no different that being shot at by a HE spamming cruiser (in fact, I'd rather be attacked by aircraft in the new model than become the attention of an Atlanta or Worchester  - those ships do WAY more damage to DDs and other ships than new airplanes do - and people have ZERO chance shoot down their shells.)

 

I'm NOT a CV player (0 games in that class), but... after watching Notser's  recent DD video I would not come to the conclusion that CVs are neither too strong nor too weak (sounds like the definition of "balanced").

I had flashbacks to a (non-Tier 10) CA being targeted by a never ending stream of HE shells from a Tier 10 DD in smoke. That's NOT a pleasant experience, and Notser really wasn't able to do anything to counter the rocket strikes at the end of his video (other than to pray for favorable RNG). At least I could blind fire the smoke (if not flat run away).  His AA could do nothing to affect the rocket strikes.  That's AA too weak.

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So, when it was horridly skewed towards making anyone not in a CV miserable, you came here to the forums and told us everything was just peachy. Now, though, when things are actually being made fair, that you have an issue with.

 

Good sir, balance is exactly that, balance, and as things were, things were badly, and I do mean badly, out of balance. I'm all for CV's being in the game, however, no one class can be, or should be, so horribly overpowered compared to the others that the other 3 classes might as just well tap "F" and pay respects as soon as the round starts. That's where things actually stand, and it bothers me that you can't see that.

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The basic system works, but now it needs a few numbers passes, and that won't really be complete till some time on the live server, because of numbers.

It's a fine line to walk, really.  You don't want CVs unable to do damage, but you don't want it too easy, either.

A balance like that will take some steps and missteps to get right.

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WG are between a rock and a hard place, and I don't envy what they are trying (And have failed since 2013) to do. CVs are either going to be effective or ineffective. There is no middle ground.

How does one balance a ship type that historically spelled the end for surface naval combat? How do they fit into a game which at it's heart is a surface naval combat game? How does one balance a ship type that historically did strike and sink other ships with impunity? How do you balance it so that it's fair, fun, and engaging for both the CV players, and the guys on the receiving end?

Some say it is a fine line. After watching WG flail about over this for years Imho there probably is no line. It's going to one or the other.

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1 hour ago, capncrunch21 said:

My concern is that if WG increases AA too much, that the new CVs become ineffective at being 'death by a thousand cuts' Light Cruisers since their planes can't get through. This mean no one will want to play them because they cant deal ANY damage. So WG will increase the damage that individual planes do, meaning that that if even ONE gets through it will do enormous damage. Aaaaaannnnnnndddd…. we're right back to the old model with CV's insta-deleting ships with a single attack.

Yep, this is the problem we face.  If people want CVs to do low alpha attacks then they have to be willing to be cut a thousand times.  No one wants to be cut once let alone a thousand times.  Where does that leave us?

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5 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Yep, this is the problem we face.  If people want CVs to do low alpha attacks then they have to be willing to be cut a thousand times.  No one wants to be cut once let alone a thousand times.  Where does that leave us?

Actually this is not the issue most in the AA sucks thread were making. Instead they were saying that AA that weak was disempowering to the surface ship player and engendered a sense of futility. Ideally the surface player should at least thin the number of waves launched. E.g. Notser's DD should only have suffered 3 passes instead of 4 because his AA thinned out the attacking squadron. That way careful use of cover, friendly ships and the AA sector mechanic gives a player under attack a feeling that he is doing something constructive about the issue. With AA as low as it was, the best response for most ships was to ignore AA entirely and hope you didn't get targeted as there was nothing you could do about it.

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The OP is right, i've played the new rework... if the AA is increased significantly...Consider it pointless to play them. Look at this 2500 base xp CV i recorded of the rework. I did  about 1,200 HP per plane i lost, totally around 90k damage. Can't remember how many planes, I'm at work so i cant look at the video. If the damage per plane is lowered to like 500hp, it's going to be boring and pointless.

http://youtu.be/HbRDZlf-atc

If the AA is increased only by lets say 15%, my effectiveness in that round would be reduced dramatically. I already feel like the 90k i did was inconsequential. The alpha strikes need to be increased if AA gets increased, proportionally. With the way the system is now, I think they could increase a solid alpha attack to be a significant portion of the ships HP, but not "instadelete" either. How about 50% of it's HP if you get a really solid torp or bomb drop in? It doesn't insta delete the ship, and the ship can heal if it's higher tiers. They just need to have "incidents" slow down your plane waves, and also a longer plane loading time on deck. I saw my planes taking off as my carrier was getting bombed, that shouldn't happen.

Edited by HorrorRoach
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2 hours ago, capncrunch21 said:

With the recent announcement that the effectiveness of AA is increasing dramatically on PTS for the CV rework, I am concerned.

Currently CV planes in the new system do very little damage with each pass - the complete opposite of the "alpha strike" one-attack-a-ship-is-dead model of old the RTS system. This 'death by a thousand cuts' paradigm essentially makes new CVs very long range Light Cruisers (think Atlanta spamming HE from behind an island). Their airplanes are their 'shells' that have a very long hang time - but shells that trade enormous range for the downside of being able to be knocked out of the air in addition to being dodged.

My concern is that if WG increases AA too much, that the new CVs become ineffective at being 'death by a thousand cuts' Light Cruisers since their planes can't get through. This mean no one will want to play them because they cant deal ANY damage. So WG will increase the damage that individual planes do, meaning that that if even ONE gets through it will do enormous damage. Aaaaaannnnnnndddd…. we're right back to the old model with CV's insta-deleting ships with a single attack.

Please WG, be careful here. Right now the new model on PTS puts CVs on the same playing field as other ships, they are neither to strong or too weak with the damage they do (again, they are very much like long ranged cruisers with good radar), please don't go overboard because people are still locked into the old model mentality that planes have to be shot done in droves over ships when they attack. Planes don't do the same damage as they once did. Coming under attack by aircraft now is really no different that being shot at by a HE spamming cruiser (in fact, I'd rather be attacked by aircraft in the new model than become the attention of an Atlanta or Worchester  - those ships do WAY more damage to DDs and other ships than new airplanes do - and people have ZERO chance shoot down their shells.)

The problem is not with the damage they do, it's with the fact that they can do said damage any time, anywhere, with almost total and complete immunity. The only way to balance what is effectively invulnerable off-map artillery is to lessen it's lethality.

You can shoot back at an Atlanta or Worcester. An artillery barge with 5km concealment in the back corner of the map is harder to counter.

If you could only see just how many PTS matches end with just the CV's alive, you might understand.

Edited by So_lt_Goes
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Hello everyone,

I haven't been able to play PTS, but I played the TST CV rework. A word about balancing:

Making small increments to an item (AA in this thread) is doable but will likely take too many iterations (more than needed), it is generally easier to have a given starting point, and then make a big jump. Then we have a base line, and will start to iterate towards the middle until good enough balance is met. With this approach we know how much is too little or too much.

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I hear tossing out untested massive balance changes is good for player retention...:Smile_trollface:

Edited by awiggin
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Over the coming months, from PTS to live, right through Spring into the Summer, we can expect CV dmg output go up and down, from nerf to buff to nerf again. I wouldn't place too much faith in the PTS (WG doesn't, which is why they announced their decision to go Live with the rework, whatever the PTS feedback).

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another route to more effective AA, is STOP going off on your own, try to play as 2 to 4 groups of ships providing mutual AA support.

 

if you go off on your own, accept the heightened risk from YOUR choice.

 

sure AA wants some tweaks over time but it doesn't need to be drastic, because some of the problem lay with the currant gameplay which isn't pushing people enough to play in groups as more of a team in random battles, if CV's help push people towards that, then all the better for gameplay as a whole. 

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4 minutes ago, b101uk said:

another route to more effective AA, is STOP going off on your own, try to play as 2 to 4 groups of ships providing mutual AA support.

 

if you go off on your own, accept the heightened risk from YOUR choice.

 

sure AA wants some tweaks over time but it doesn't need to be drastic, because some of the problem lay with the currant gameplay which isn't pushing people enough to play in groups as more of a team in random battles, if CV's help push people towards that, then all the better for gameplay as a whole. 

This gentlemen has it right.  Overlapping AA on the current PTS is freaking brutal.  I'm in the process of uploading a video that will show exactly how brutal it is.  If that gets turned up too much, it's going to be a problem.  I do however think that short range AA is in need of improvement.  It is currently far too weak and you'll be able to see that in my video as well.

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I agree with the two gentlemen above me. after playing the PTS CVs, two ships with decent AA will shred planes and allow you maybe one of you strikes through if that. 3 or 4 ships with decent AA grouped or a fighter launch and good luck getting any hits.

Tier 6 is probably the most powerful point for CVs - this is when the first ships with decent AA start to come into play, but they aren't powerful enough yet that your planes just die.

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I played about 10 hours of CVs on the PT server.  I found the Tier 4 CVs very weak in their damage.  Can't remember the AA at that tier.  At Tiers 6 and 8 the AA seemed effective but not overpowered.  The CVs did adequate damage but nothing more.  A SMALL AA buff probably would not have much detriment; too much and CVs will go to port.  At Tier 10 the AA is very effective.  I tried two Tier 8 torpedo squadrons against a lone Republique and lost every plane (2 times 9 = 18).  Only slightly more successful with the DBs as I had the 15% HP bonus on them.  I found several situations with multiple ships engaging my aircraft (use Priority Target to see that).  Biggest take away for me:  playing CVs is fun, I felt engaged in the game versus when using the RTS interface.  However, I will keep my AA ships in support of friendly ships more than previously as overlapping AA is a killer to aircraft at Tier 8 and 10 and pretty effective at Tier 6.

Balance includes the adjustment to new tactics as well as ship characteristics.  We must allow some time for the tactical change to evolve.

Lastly, I find the most negative comments about the rework status are coming from players who have been attacking this transition from Day 1.  Please ignore ALL the naysayers and proceed softly.  The rework is ready for deployment now with minor tweaks in the future.  Now let all the CV rework haters come and attack me for my comments - not that I give a darn.  You will simply reveal yourselves for what you are!

Edited by Aardvar
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16 minutes ago, b101uk said:

another route to more effective AA, is STOP going off on your own, try to play as 2 to 4 groups of ships providing mutual AA support.

 

if you go off on your own, accept the heightened risk from YOUR choice.

 

sure AA wants some tweaks over time but it doesn't need to be drastic, because some of the problem lay with the currant gameplay which isn't pushing people enough to play in groups as more of a team in random battles, if CV's help push people towards that, then all the better for gameplay as a whole. 

Agreed.

I tried attacking a ship in a group of ships with planes on PTS and my planes got hammered - not one survived to drop its load. So I went back to attacking lone ships or ones on the edge of a group. 

The Noster video I feel is an anomaly. He is a lone DD by himself. In the current model he would still have a hard time, but he would shoot down some planes. Would he have survived? That would be up to the skill of the CV playing against him. In this video, it seems the CV driver was very accurate with his rocket fire, so very skilled. Granted the Defensive Fire consumable didn't seem to be working as intended. It didn't scatter the rockets like it should have (regardless of whether it shot down any planes or not). 

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18 hours ago, b101uk said:

another route to more effective AA, is STOP going off on your own, try to play as 2 to 4 groups of ships providing mutual AA support.

 

if you go off on your own, accept the heightened risk from YOUR choice.

 

sure AA wants some tweaks over time but it doesn't need to be drastic, because some of the problem lay with the currant gameplay which isn't pushing people enough to play in groups as more of a team in random battles, if CV's help push people towards that, then all the better for gameplay as a whole. 

 

18 hours ago, _HatTrick_ said:

This gentlemen has it right.  Overlapping AA on the current PTS is freaking brutal.  I'm in the process of uploading a video that will show exactly how brutal it is.  If that gets turned up too much, it's going to be a problem.  I do however think that short range AA is in need of improvement.  It is currently far too weak and you'll be able to see that in my video as well.

 

That might work to an extent for some types and classes of cruisers grouping with BBs, but it begs the question; have you guys played DDs much?  Either those groups would need multiplied range of AA bubble to provide some cover for forward DDs or DDs need their own varying degrees of AA protection to operate forward and more autonomously.

Furthermore, this is a "free to play" online PvP arcade game. That level coordination could work with divisions of 3 to 4 with voice coms, better yet for clans doing clan wars. Other than that, the idea of operating in groups with overlapping AA effectively is far fetched. 

Edited by MrKilmister
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6 minutes ago, MrKilmister said:

 

 

That might work to an extent for some types and classes of cruisers grouping with BBs, but it begs the question; have you guys played DDs much?  Either those group would need multiplied range of AA bubble to provide some cover for forward DDs or DDs need their own varying degrees of AA protection to operate forward and more autonomously.

Furthermore, this is a "free to play" online PvP arcade game. That level coordination could work with divisions of 3 to 4 with voice coms, better yet for clans doing clan wars. Other than that, the idea of operating in groups with overlapping AA effectively is far fetched. 

The problem of course, then becomes that if you give surface ships enough AA to singlehandedly wipe planes out of the sky at obscene distances in the name of protecting DDs you render Carriers useless, and they sit in port. The point of this rework is to make Carriers more accessible and playable. That means there has to be a balance, carriers have to be powerful, and I think they have close to the right balance as it stands. A carrier will have a hard time spotting a DD and then striking it, momentum of the planes means that by the time most DDs are spotted they won't be in a position to then carry out an effective attack.

From my testing, most ships that currently have strong AA still have AA that is a legitimate threat and if combined with another ships with decent AA creates an effective no-fly zone. Further, any ship with a Fighter launcher can now create an on-demand no-fly zone with how destructive fighters are. AA doesn't need to be massively reworked at this point, but there is definitely a need for some minor adjustments.

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With the murder Rework CVs were getting away with, you guys aren't getting sympathy out here.  I've backed CVs many times in the past but not on this Rework.

 

If an AA Spec AA ship can defend itself and its team from these UNLIMITED Air Attacks, then I consider it balanced.

I do not seek something like Fuso being a "No Fly Zone" but I expect AA ships to be a capable in taking care of itself and others nearby.  5-6km AA range, 1 set of AA guns able to attack aircraft, and pitiful AA DPS does not do that.  If a AA Spec Gearing, AA Spec Montana can't do sh*t then the system was ALL F-CKED UP and needed to be redone.  Seeing CV aircraft dance around a Des Moines turned my stomach.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, So_lt_Goes said:

The problem is not with the damage they do, it's with the fact that they can do said damage any time, anywhere, with almost total and complete immunity. The only way to balance what is effectively invulnerable off-map artillery is to lessen it's lethality.

You can shoot back at an Atlanta or Worcester. An artillery barge with 5km concealment in the back corner of the map is harder to counter.

If you could only see just how many PTS matches end with just the CV's alive, you might understand.

I have seen it. But many of those games have 4 CVs a side in them. That isn't going to happen on the live servers.

And as for concealment and essentially being untouchable, take the T8 Lexington for example. Even with camo and the concealment mod, it still has a detection range of over 15km. Couple this with the fact that that its returning planes point EXACTLY where it is at at all times and that the player has no control over the ship while flying planes makes it a sitting duck for BBs and Cruisers once spotted.

People have got to stop thinking about CVs using the old model. The rework is changing everything.

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7 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

With the murder Rework CVs were getting away with, you guys aren't getting sympathy out here.  I've backed CVs many times in the past but not on this Rework.

 

If an AA Spec AA ship can defend itself and its team from these UNLIMITED Air Attacks, then I consider it balanced.

I do not seek something like Fuso being a "No Fly Zone" but I expect AA ships to be a capable in taking care of itself and others nearby.  5-6km AA range, 1 set of AA guns able to attack aircraft, and pitiful AA DPS does not do that.  If a AA Spec Gearing, AA Spec Montana can't do sh*t then the system was ALL F-CKED UP and needed to be redone.  Seeing CV aircraft dance around a Des Moines turned my stomach.

But those ships survived a single attack, didn't they? (in the old system they wouldn't have) Planes are unlimited just as ship's shells are unlimited. 

Or do you want to start putting an ammo cap on HE (and torp) spamming cruisers and DDs?

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I watched the video too, and it also struck me that the Gearing wasn't taking massive damage with any individual strike.  However, it also didn't shoot down a single plane, despite having planes almost constantly overhead, using DFAA, and being a Gearing.  So maybe balance it by making planes easier to shoot down, but give them higher damage output.  Or perhaps a chance of higher damage based on the whims of the RNG gods?  Not so much that a single drop takes out a ship, but more than now.  Or maybe they can start off with the equivalent of massive dispersion and low sigma, but can increase their odds of hitting by slowing down and taking longer to aim while in the AA bubble?  I don't think people will complain so much if they at least see planes splashing in the water every now and then, even if their ships are taking damage.  And tweak the aircraft repair so the CV player has to choose between launching understrength squadrons or waiting a long time to bring them back up to full strength.  It's unrealistic to have unlimited planes, but it's also unrealistic for DDs to have unlimited torpedoes (or to even reload torpedoes at all during a battle).  So if they are getting unlimited planes, at least make them wait as long to reload planes as a Shima has to wait to reload torpedoes.  Or maybe it already takes that long, and it doesn't seem like it to people on the receiving end, because they can launch a different squadron while the damaged one repairs?

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

With the murder Rework CVs were getting away with, you guys aren't getting sympathy out here.  I've backed CVs many times in the past but not on this Rework.

 

If an AA Spec AA ship can defend itself and its team from these UNLIMITED Air Attacks, then I consider it balanced.

I do not seek something like Fuso being a "No Fly Zone" but I expect AA ships to be a capable in taking care of itself and others nearby.  5-6km AA range, 1 set of AA guns able to attack aircraft, and pitiful AA DPS does not do that.  If a AA Spec Gearing, AA Spec Montana can't do sh*t then the system was ALL F-CKED UP and needed to be redone.  Seeing CV aircraft dance around a Des Moines turned my stomach.

Well, that depends on your definition of 'defend itself'

As the are currently on the live server, Carriers are fully capable of outright deleting a ship in one or two strikes. Which means that a surface ship need to be able to destroy the entire or nearly the entire wave in order to defend itself. As they stand on the PTS, a carrier will have to take multiple attack runs at you in order to inflict any kind of serious damage. Planes are no longer a threat that must be dealt with immediately, rather, solo AA is more a matter of denying the CV a third or fourth attack run, reducing the amount of damage he is able to deal.

And once again, I will point to the fact that fighters are now basically constant strafe machines. If you have a fighter launcher on your ship, you can hit you fighter button and it will quite quickly deal with the attack planes.

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Ok, here is a video I made of a game I recorded this afternoon on PTS.  I'm in a Midway and the only other human in the game is also in a Midway.  You can see in the chat at the beginning that I asked them to please not try to sink me as I was trying to record and they graciously oblliged.  He also didn't bother trying to interrupt me by using his Fighter CAP consumable which wasn't necessary but I appreciate his doing it.  Basically I was allowed to do whatever I wanted to the bots without interference.  

As you watch the video, it's worth mentioning that I have both Survivability Expert and Aircraft Armor among my captain skills.  Those provide 500 hit points per plane and a flat 10% reduction to damage taken from AA respectively.  In addition, I have Attack Aircraft Mod 2 on my ship which increases the HP of my attack aircraft, which are the rocket planes, by an additional 15%.  You'll notice that they are significantly more rugged than the torpedo or dive bombers are and that's why.  Finally, I also have Priority Target as a captain skill (I believe this will be a no brainer that all CV captains take because it's so vital) so you can see exactly how many ships are firing me at any given time.

The video runs the whole 15 minutes of the game and I know not everyone may want to watch the whole thing so I will highlight some things of interest and the time they occur in the video:

  • 0:47 - I fly my rocket planes over a couple enemy DDs early in the game.  Note how close I have to get to them to see them but also note that their AA is pretty much "lol, whatever" as I cruise over them.
  • 1:05 - After a quick survey of the positioning of the enemy fleet, I see a ship with strong AA, a Des Moines, and I fly over to feel the effect of his AA guns.  Keep in mind, this is a bot that probably has no AA captain skills or ship mods (if they have either at all, I don't know) and I am in my rocket planes which are my most durable by a long shot.  Watch how much damage I take while over top of the DM.  One pass by him and almost my entire squad is either yellow or orange on HP.
  • 1:35 - After buzzing the DM's tower, I decide I better try to get some ordnance out before I start losing planes.  I fly into the enemy backfield and attack a Yamato with my rockets.  I'm able to get one strike on him but the flak is incredibly withering there with 5 ships firing at me and I start losing planes rapidly.  I am able to get a second attack off on a Moskva and I'm down to 2 planes.  Rather than risk them on another attack that will do next to nothing, I send them back to the ship.
  • 2:40 - I totally flub up the torpedo drop on a Khaba and as I take a peek back to see if they armed in time, I fly right into the midst of 2 Republiques, the Yamato, a Minotaur and something else (probably the DM).  Watch how quickly my remaining planes go bye-bye.
  • 4:17 - I go in for a torpedo run on the DM.  I think he used Defensive AA here as you'll notice by aiming cone is much wider than it was against the Khaba.  I'm not sure though, it may be because I started the attack closer.  Notice though that even though I get the torps away, a real player probably would have dodged the one that hit him and my squad gets wiped.
  • 5:45 - I go in for a DB attack on the DM.  I manage to hit him with one bomb, take a lot of damage but don't lose any planes.  I come out of that attack and fly into the middle of the Repubs and the Mino again and start taking heavy damage.  I get one bomb into the Mino and then my remaining 3 planes are zapped before I can decide where to go next.
  • 7:20 - I rocket the Mino and then one of the Republiques, as I come back around, my remaining 6 planes (the rugged ones remember) get erased.
  • 10:08 - I notice the Yamato has separated from the rest of his teammates and is isolated.  I decide to make him my target the rest of the game.  Even though he is stationary at the time I attack, I only hit him with 2 torps and then he kills my remaining 2 TBs with flak.  Next I send my rocket Bearcats after him.  You can see that his AA is little match for their increased health and I am easily able to get all 4 attacks into him and set him on fire repeatedly.  Finally I go after him with my dive bombers.  They take enough damage for several of them to turn yellow but nothing critical and I am able to complete 3 bombing runs on him and then the game ends.  Note that even with completely free reign to abuse the Yamato, I was unable to sink it (or even get close really) despite hitting him multiple times with 3 different squads of aircraft.  The alpha just isn't like it is on the live server.  I hit him with 2 torps and it did 5k damage.  Keep in mind that had the enemy CV driver wanted to, he could have dropped his Fighter CAP consumable over the Yamato at any time to protect it and I would have had to leave it alone because fighters vs. attack planes is a completely 1-sided affair.

The point I want everyone to see is how fast planes die when there are overlapping AA umbrellas, particularly from ships with strong AA suites.  If that got turned up much more, you wouldn't even be able to get close to ships that weren't off on their own.  I think the long range flak is actually pretty good where it's at.  It freaking hurts bad when it's overlapping.  Ships that rely on shorter range AA like the DDs at the start of the video, those are the ones that need some help.  There's nothing to make you think twice about attacking them.  

 

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