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[Repost from Reddit] "Unlimited" planes are not actually unlimited

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TL;DR The more you purposely lose planes to enemy AA to perform attacks, the longer you have to wait for that particular squadron to reload.

Edited by RyuuohD_NA
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If the enemy shoots down enough of your planes, do you run out

If yes, then your planes are limited.

If no, then your planes are unlimited.

There's no parsing, no middle ground, no "well but" here.  Yes, or no.  Limited, or unlimited.

 

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Unlimited generation of planes, limited to a certain amount per use.   Perhaps this system should have been used from the start with the current CV approach, at least the CV could still be somewhat effective late game as opposed to being a moving target.

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7 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

If the enemy shoots down enough of your planes, do you run out

If yes, then your planes are limited.

If no, then your planes are unlimited.

There's no parsing, no middle ground, no "well but" here.  Yes, or no.  Limited, or unlimited.

 

The world does not exist in black and white. If you want to look at it that way, that's your choice. However, fact is, they are limited by time. Time dictates how often they replenish and ultimately the maximum in a given match. Play horribly? Well you'll be spending time waiting on your planes to respawn. Play skillfully? Then it will be like now and you'll have more than enough planes in the air all match long.

 

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23 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

TL;DR The more you purposely lose planes to enemy AA to perform attacks, the longer you have to wait for that particular squadron to reload.

Give me a break ok. That does not mean the planes are limited. Longer reloads of the squadrons is NOT a limited supply of them. Also, your entire premise, and that of the asinine reddit post you show,  assumes people are actually able to shoot planes down  thus making the CV have to wait for new planes to regenerate. That isn't going to happen - AA is gutted and useless. At best you might take a couple out of an attack.

In reality the CV has an infinite supply of planes available to it - it can NEVER truly be deplaned - it just takes time to regenerate new ones - and thus has an unlimited supply. Seeing as people can't shoot them down anyway what does it matter.

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 Its unlimited but theres a limit to how many squadrons you can acctually get up in the air due to time restrictions.

When doing the beta i was getting. 130k dmg as a cv without any captain skills for aa.

Even now its not hard to score the same ammount of dmg in a t8 or 7 prem cv.

 

Its not a sky is falling situation

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While aircraft respawn is technically limited by the amount you use, effectively they are unlimited. I never felt I had a shortage of aircraft while testing and I would intentionally throw them away after getting a few attacks. I could use DBs for every strike and never had to wait for more - even if Iaunched a squad down by a plane or two, there damage wasn't effected and the AA didn't become more disabling.

 

Sure, they are 'limited' by time just like everything else, but no one is calling BB ammo limited when you can only get roughly 40 salvos in a game with constant firing

Edited by Tanuvein
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You summed it up in your closing but for now with the AA being useless a CV has no consequences for attack and loses no planes which means currently planes are unlimited.  As you said, when/if they get AA right the CV player will have to think and decide whether losing his entire squadron and taking a 2 min cooldown is worth the price of an attack.  All this sounds like acceptable balance  - but this is all theory at this point.  There is no evidence except "we're still working on it" that this is going to happen.

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5 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Give me a break ok. That does not mean the planes are limited. Longer reloads of the squadrons is NOT a limited supply of them. Also, your entire premise, and that of the asinine reddit post you show,  assumes people are actually able to shoot planes down  thus making the CV have to wait for new planes to regenerate. That isn't going to happen - AA is gutted and useless. At best you might take a couple out of an attack.

In reality the CV has an infinite supply of planes available to it - it can NEVER truly be deplaned - it just takes time to regenerate new ones - and thus has an unlimited supply. Seeing as people can't shoot them down anyway what does it matter.

By the rationale that is presented above one could argue that DDs (and other torpedo-equipped ships) have a "limited" supply of torpedoes. If a DD has a two minute reload and launches a spread at the 18:30 time mark of a battle then no more torp reloads will happen and by the above discussion this DD now has "limited" torps, which obviously is not the definition we have been using since the game began. 

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5 minutes ago, Ghawain said:

The world does not exist in black and white. If you want to look at it that way, that's your choice. However, fact is, they are limited by time. Time dictates how often they replenish and ultimately the maximum in a given match. Play horribly? Well you'll be spending time waiting on your planes to respawn. Play skillfully? Then it will be like now and you'll have more than enough planes in the air all match long.

 

Your own words show the CV has an unlimited supply of planes and there is no other way to look if you do so in an unbiased manner; be that for or against the rework. Facts are facts and the CV's supply of planes is a fact not open to manipulation or interpretation. It is what it is.

It can't be deplaned is a fact. The only way it would not be unlimited is if you can 100% remove all planes it has or can have. Having planes "being built" but none ready to fly is not having none. It actually is very black and white. Time to regenerate new planes after losing the original ones is no different than the time to rearm planes in the current system.

A CV not having planes ready to fly while waiting for them to arm/regenerate in no way shape or form means the CV is out of planes/deplaned or has a limited supply of them. It is like a BB waiting for the guns to reload or the DD for it's torps to reload. They aren't out of ammo or torps, they are just waiting to use them again while reloading. It's the SAME thing with the new CV's. An unlimited supply of planes. 

Do we call the CV's in the current system deplaned if all their squadrons are rearming? No, of course not. Can we deplane a CV in the current system though so that they literally can not put planes in the air no matter what? Yes. Can you say the same about the new rework? NO! The CV will always have the ability, time allowing, to put planes up no matter how many are shot down. Of course, as said above, AA is so useless in the rework this will be moot as the CV will seldom lose planes period let alone entire squadrons of them.

Good lord people if you want to defend the rework that is fine but at least use your brains and don't try and use smoke and mirrors to make your argument.

 

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6 minutes ago, DJC_499 said:

By the rationale that is presented above one could argue that DDs (and other torpedo-equipped ships) have a "limited" supply of torpedoes. If a DD has a two minute reload and launches a spread at the 18:30 time mark of a battle then no more torp reloads will happen and by the above discussion this DD now has "limited" torps, which obviously is not the definition we have been using since the game began. 

IKR - some folks have to twist everything to try and be right even when it is a failed argument.

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Right now this doesn't really affect you unless you're careless, at least on the Midway.  You may run out of one type of squadron early if you're very aggressive with it, but that just means you have to make.do or find a different target for a little bit.

That might change after the pending flak buff.

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Hmm... 

Edited by Malarkey_
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Do ships with catapult fighter have unlimited charges?  Do AA mounts replenish on a timer?  Do (non-Atlanta-class) ships have unlimited defensive AA charges?

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19 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Give me a break ok. That does not mean the planes are limited. Longer reloads of the squadrons is NOT a limited supply of them. Also, your entire premise, and that of the asinine reddit post you show,  assumes people are actually able to shoot planes down  thus making the CV have to wait for new planes to regenerate. That isn't going to happen - AA is gutted and useless. At best you might take a couple out of an attack.

In reality the CV has an infinite supply of planes available to it - it can NEVER truly be deplaned - it just takes time to regenerate new ones - and thus has an unlimited supply. Seeing as people can't shoot them down anyway what does it matter.

Essentially, this is correct.  I watched Notser's video where a Gearing was being harassed constantly for over half a game, and it didn't shoot down a single plane.  In a Gearing with DFAA.  I suspect a lot of this has to do with only 2-3 planes breaking away from the squadron for each attack run.  It seems like the rest of the squadron that isn't actively attacking takes less AA damage.  And even if those 2-3 planes took some hits, if they didn't actually get splashed they head back to the CV and start repairing while the rest of the squadron goes on about its business dropping ordnance.  So by the time the last planes in the squadron get back to the CV, the earlier ones should be mostly repaired.  But let's say he did manage to shoot down enough planes in, say, the torpedo bomber squadron, to force it to wait on deck to replenish.  That would still leave the dive bomber squadron and the rocket plane squadron that could launch immediately while the TB squadron got back up to strength.  And if you have a game with 2 (or even 3?) CVs per side, the perma-spotting is going to be even worse than before the CV rework.  That doesn't necessarily make the original poster wrong, but the adjustments to AA will have to be massive if that video is anything to go on.

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I don't really see a issue with the planned plane setup. 

All ships has a resource like this and truth be told I was sad that CVs could be knocked out of a match so easily in the past. 

thanks @RyuuohD_NA for reposting here.

I look forward to seeing some constructive conversations on the subject as we get closer to 0.8.0

:crab:

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Just now, zubalkabir said:

And if you have a game with 2 (or even 3?) CVs per side, the perma-spotting is going to be even worse than before the CV rework. 

How, when each carrier after the rework has only a single airborne unit as opposed to multiples (what, five, six at high tiers??).

There cannot be as many airborne units in the game as there are now, and each unit must either scout OR attack; not both.

Scouting/vision goes away as soon as the airborne squadron is exhausted or destroyed and must await the return of the next squadron to the area, and the drop-a-fighter consumable is not inexhaustible.

There will be no two-carrier divisions.

Teamwork between carriers will depend on the chat function. And anyone who screams about the lack of teamwork in Randoms cannot suddenly turn around and scream about how the carriers are suddenly all going to join forces and gang up on them. That would be mildly hypocritical to say the least.

4 minutes ago, DerKrampus said:

Do ships with catapult fighter have unlimited charges?  Do AA mounts replenish on a timer?  Do (non-Atlanta-class) ships have unlimited defensive AA charges?

Do other ships have limits on their ammunition?? Battleships can't even shoot their entire historical loadout, but an Atlanta or Worcester probably could, and if the Harugumo had actually been built and served there is no way it could have sustained the rates and volumes of fire we see in the game. 

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the biggest problem is there's no deterrent, CV have unlimited supply of planes to bomb you, cool down or bad aim, just means he will do less damage or more damage, he will still laugh the whole game keep bombing you

also beef up AA only means he will pick the weakest ship, and keep bombing him non-stop, you think that's fair to the player being bombed the whole game and can't do anything about it? he can't even surrender or hide or run, talking about being pissed

so bottom line, unlimited planes must be gone, only with limited planes, every plane shot down will be gone forever, AA will have deter effect that's needed, and that's how reality works

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39 minutes ago, Ghawain said:

The world does not exist in black and white. If you want to look at it that way, that's your choice. However, fact is, they are limited by time. Time dictates how often they replenish and ultimately the maximum in a given match. Play horribly? Well you'll be spending time waiting on your planes to respawn. Play skillfully? Then it will be like now and you'll have more than enough planes in the air all match long.

 

So, the binary does exist: Planes are limited.

You are correct; reality is gray however, the black and white binary abstraction is necessary to enable clarity.

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So this is no different than the Shima or any DD with unlimited Torpedoes... 2.5 minutes to load 15 torpedoes means a shima can launch a maximum of 120 torps.  A CV is going to get to launch at T10 between 100-120 planes.  Same difference if you ask me.   Sorry they are making the CV the same as other ships.  Remember people said it needed fixing.  Now the next 3-5 months are going to be a blast watching the Forums.

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People will be mothballing their Yamato and Musashi. It's going to change the game mechanics. Expect to see only BBs with great AA and tons of cruisers. DDs will become extinct.

As always, WG tries to fix things that aren't broken and ultimately piss off their base.

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45 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Give me a break ok. That does not mean the planes are limited. Longer reloads of the squadrons is NOT a limited supply of them. Also, your entire premise, and that of the asinine reddit post you show,  assumes people are actually able to shoot planes down  thus making the CV have to wait for new planes to regenerate. That isn't going to happen - AA is gutted and useless. At best you might take a couple out of an attack.

In reality the CV has an infinite supply of planes available to it - it can NEVER truly be deplaned - it just takes time to regenerate new ones - and thus has an unlimited supply. Seeing as people can't shoot them down anyway what does it matter.

Your right you can't deplane it completely like you can now.  Now it is going to work like a DD.

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4 minutes ago, GrimmeReaper said:

So this is no different than the Shima or any DD with unlimited Torpedoes... 2.5 minutes to load 15 torpedoes means a shima can launch a maximum of 120 torps.  A CV is going to get to launch at T10 between 100-120 planes.  Same difference if you ask me.   Sorry they are making the CV the same as other ships.  Remember people said it needed fixing.  Now the next 3-5 months are going to be a blast watching the Forums.

I can't wait for them to start adjusting AA and so on. It's already started and will likely go on for a while. 

I'm also curious to see if they adjust replenish too. It does seem that planes are a bit too numerous. Though, if they make them less numerous, will they hit harder?

There are so many dials to play with for balance, things will be rather chaotic for a little while...

Edited by Ghawain
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1 minute ago, STINKWEED_ said:

People will be mothballing their Yamato and Musashi. It's going to change the game mechanics. Expect to see only BBs with great AA and tons of cruisers. DDs will become extinct.

As always, WG tries to fix things that aren't broken and ultimately piss off their base.

I don't think DDs will become extinct.  Just the opposite, it is one of the harder ships to hit for a CV, and if they get AA balanced out properly, DDs will be fine.  If you watched Notser's Cry Video in the Gearing, it took forever for him to get killed.  I do agree the Gearing among others needs help with their AA.

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2 minutes ago, Ghawain said:

I can't wait for them to start adjusting AA and so on. It's already started and will likely go on for a while. 

I'm also curious to see if they adjust replenish too. It does seem that planes are a bit too numerous. Though, if they make them less numerous, will they hit harder?

There are so many dials to play with for balance, things will be rather chaotic for a little while...

I am expecting them to play with the length of time it takes to Replenish planes.  I suspect it will get longer especially at T8 and T10.  T4 don't want to play with too much as the planes are already like paper and die easy.  And that could be the other thing.  They play with the health pool of the planes themselves.

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