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Pyun

IJN everything super Squishy

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I just started playing again after two years and am surprised to see that they still have not fixed cruisers and the yamato in general. In fact it only seems to have gotten worse for IJN. It is just not reasonable for cruisers to be citadeled so easy. Literally one volley from a battleship and its game over to the port. It is not possible for cruisers to avoid all 90 degree shots as the odds are there is a battleship that will be able to hit your broadside. The worst of this is the atago. You can be angled quartering away and still get citadeled. It is literally a floating citadel!!!!! Battleships can wait till you turn for a split second and punish you out of the game. Worst off is WG seems to like putting out op battleships that are quoted to be “cruiser nightmares” but rarely have any good premium cruisers that arent no longer for sale.

This leads me to the yamato. Too squishy!!!

All i see is the entire team spamming HE at yamatos despite it being in full retreat and the entire friendly team of the yamato all in the front being completely ignored. You get put on fire back to back and it just chunks away at your “sounds cool” 97k health pool. 

Worst is the citadel. WG designed this ship poorly. They gave it weird citadel cheeks that make it extremely easy to citadel. Much easier to citadel compared to other ships. When the players that have grinded through ijn bbs like the izumo youd expect the final to be the king of all battleships. This is not the case. Instead yamato players are forced to camp in the safety of their spawn afraid of being torped to oblivion, or cooked in fire like bbq!!! For a ship that has such terrible mobility WG at least should make yamatos have heavy armor and heavy hitting guns. Can we have both? 

the only decent perk is the guns are Ok. can pen anything and is relatively accurate. However, you only have 9 shots and insanely long reload. 

 

Oh i also wanted to talk about IJN dds. Useless, torpedos are spotted from miles away so they are easy to avoid. Throw on top of the hydro spam and radar spam shima sucks!

 

Edited by Pyun
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IJN cruisers are squishy yes, but they have very good concealment and can start fires very easily. Using your torpedoes and exceptional maneuverability is key, otherwise you will get blapped by someone 20km away. 

 

Yamato is not squishy if you play her right. Yeah, she has a glaring citadel, but if you play her right, she will tank absurd amounts of damage. To play Yamato, you need to bowtank and angle properly. If you cannot do that, then the Yamato will seem squishy. You don't need to camp at spawn to stay alive. Parking next to an island and tanking huge amounts of damage with your insane belt armour (when angled) and 50mm deck is what the Yamato is made for. If you play her like a maneuverable battleship then she will seem weak. 

 

Yamato can stop fires when it has a fire prevention build and you angle properly. I've had 3.5 million potential damage in a Musashi before and took 50K in fire damage in one match. Still managed to dish out 220K damage and lived through to get dreadnought, kraken, and fireproof. 

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Eh, IJN cruisers have always been the squishiest, even when angled.   Perhaps that armor change for all heavy cruisers will change how squishy they are.(if it happens)  With that said, all of the other IJN cruisers got the same dispersion that the Zao gets, making them very accurate.

 

Yammy is fine.    It is far more resilient to HE spam than the newer BBs that are coated in 32mm armor.(the same armor the yammy can over match)  The cheek is only a weak spot when you brawl, or show too much side within 13-14km or so.  Torp belt is the best in the game.   It got a turret traverse buff last year, which makes it easier to punish targets of opportunity. 

 

IJN DDs got an alpha buff on their guns, making them even scarier to fight if they know how to wiggle and kite.  While i agree the torp spotting range sucks, they cant touch it without nerfing other parts of it imo.

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32 minutes ago, Pyun said:

I just started playing again after two years and am surprised to see that they still have not fixed cruisers and the yamato in general. In fact it only seems to have gotten worse for IJN. It is just not reasonable for cruisers to be citadeled so easy. Literally one volley from a battleship and its game over to the port. It is not possible for cruisers to avoid all 90 degree shots as the odds are there is a battleship that will be able to hit your broadside. The worst of this is the atago. You can be angled quartering away and still get citadeled. It is literally a floating citadel!!!!! Battleships can wait till you turn for a split second and punish you out of the game. Worst off is WG seems to like putting out op battleships that are quoted to be “cruiser nightmares” but rarely have any good premium cruisers that arent no longer for sale.

This leads me to the yamato. Too squishy!!!

All i see is the entire team spamming HE at yamatos despite it being in full retreat and the entire friendly team of the yamato all in the front being completely ignored. You get put on fire back to back and it just chunks away at your “sounds cool” 97k health pool. 

Worst is the citadel. WG designed this ship poorly. They gave it weird citadel cheeks that make it extremely easy to citadel. Much easier to citadel compared to other ships. When the players that have grinded through ijn bbs like the izumo youd expect the final to be the king of all battleships. This is not the case. Instead yamato players are forced to camp in the safety of their spawn afraid of being torped to oblivion, or cooked in fire like bbq!!! For a ship that has such terrible mobility WG at least should make yamatos have heavy armor and heavy hitting guns. Can we have both? 

the only decent perk is the guns are Ok. can pen anything and is relatively accurate. However, you only have 9 shots and insanely long reload. 

 

Oh i also wanted to talk about IJN dds. Useless, torpedos are spotted from miles away so they are easy to avoid. Throw on top of the hydro spam and radar spam shima sucks!

 

Cruisers get citadelled easily by battleships BECAUSE they're cruisers.  To quote Admiral Akbar, they can't repel firepower of that magnitude!  It's a VERY rare cruiser that can bounce BB shells regularly.

WG didn't design the Yamato.  The Japanese Navy did.  Like with all real ships, WG only built her model according to the blueprints of the Yamato.    And a 30 second main gun reload is NOT an "insanely long reload".  In point of fact, it's a pretty standard reload time for many battleships.  Those are 18" shells that weight a ton or 2, not puny little shells that can be loaded by hand.

As for the Yammy's guns, I'd say that they're more than just decent.  They're the hardest hitting guns in the game, and perhaps the most accurate as well.

As for "good premium cruisers", the only two premium cruisers that are no longer for sale that I can recall are the Belfast and the Kutuzov.  The Belfast was rather OP at the time it was removed from sale because it had smoke, radar, and hydro, which was a very OP combination.  Frankly, I think that there are plenty of fairly good premium cruisers.  But cruisers are only as good as the player playing them.   The Atago is still considered a very good premium cruiser, though I really think that it could use a gun range buff, because main guns with range under 16km in a tier 8 is a killer in tier 10 battles, unless perhaps you're a Brit with smoke, or a USN cruiser that can lob shells over islands, etc.  The Atago's play style is sort of like a lower tier version of the  Zao, where you want to stay mobile and use your concealment, and occasionally get in some torps.  But it is a fairly demanding cruiser to play.

 

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IJN CA are fairly squeeshy but you also has decent concealment and guns. Except few ship like Mogami and Ibuki, the rest are actually fairly tanky for their tier. Furutaka has armor thick enough to bounce same tier and some T6 BB gun whereas other cruiser at T5 have no armor. Aoba is basically a T6 Furutaka, she can bounce some shells. Myoukou is fairly tanky but not as tanky for its tier than Furutaka but it has more firepower to compensate for that. Zao is trolly AF when angled.

 

Yamato is squeeshy but angled, there is no way  to properly deal with him except if you bring another Yamato or HE spam. And even HE spamming a Yamato will take a long time before it sink. Bow is 32mm, the the back section is 50 (only Hindenburg or IFHE Henri can now pen this section) then the deck is 57mm. The reason why people feel she's squeeshy is because unlike other BB you have a citadel that can be easily punishable. Even Montana can afford giving broadside like a [edited] and get away with it. Yamato ? No. But considering you can lolpen 32mm of armor I find it fair.

 

As for IJN DD, Harugumo is fun but I'm having more fun playing the main IJN line. The main line is the hardest DD line to play but since the recent HE buff, it's really good and quite powerfull actually. You now has gun that can seriously hurt . As for torps, it requires more prediction skill than anything else. If I can get some games like that in CB where hydro and radar are omnipresent, it means the ship isn't actually that bad. It's not really consistent because you heavily rely on torps, but it's definitely not weak.

 

Spoiler

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Random :

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shot-18_12.18_22_01.32-0060.thumb.jpg.d336354bc76b1b76aa8f359cb1afaa26.jpg

 

 

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I like driving in my ibuki. When I open fire and watch all those guns pointing at me, my heart rate goes up. And if I get out in one piece, it's like escaping death. It's a roller coaster! Like it very much.

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As soon as the OP complained about the Yamato this thread was dead. There is a reason it's the most used BB in ranked and clan battles!

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Well guys. I just got citadeled in the yamato. It was a montana at 12 km. Both of us were perfectly broadside(and he was at full stop) and he damaged me for 48000 damage or roughly half of my health(i died almost instantly). I shot him and because his citadel is so much better designed i did 8k damage to him. Even with the yamatos “best gun in the game” i find it much more difficult to citadel other battleships such as the US battleships. 

 

I find it hard to believe that every ships citadel in the game is 100% authentic based on RL designs. [edited]. This is a video game. Game breaking concepts like citadels should be balanced instead of focusing on realism even if WG did design ships citadels based on actual designs.

 

I am working on the legendary upgrade for the yamato to improve its accuracy even further, in sacrifice of even worst turret traverse. Hopefully this makes it a little better. 

Thanks for the advice on focusing your commander slots. I saw a huge improvememt in survivability once i reassigned skill points. In fact, they mustve changed a lot in skill points as some of my commanders skills werent even able to be used with the yamato

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The IJN ships focus on three things: massive alpha damage, long range weapons, and concealment.

 

This means that an IJN captain is an opportunist and capitalizes on catching unaware opponents with a massive salvo and fading out before the enemy can retaliate. Their naval doctrine of "Decisive Battle" really comes through WG's design. The obvious drawback is their below average durability (Zao and Shimakaze have the lowest health pools among their peers), slow reload, and large, exposed citadels. They can dish out damage in one stroke, but cannot trade damage in a prolonged fight. Use this to your advantage; choose your targets carefully and make sure that you hold all the cards before you engage. Put yourself in a way that can easily avoid return shots and relocate quickly if need be. Don't get caught by more than 1 enemy ship at a time.

 

As for the Yama-sashi, that citadel cheek below the #1 gun turret is an Achilles' heel. This is a balancing feature since they both have overmatch capabilities that other BBs can only dream of (457mm Conqueror and Republique comes close, but not quite). Build your Yamato to combat fires and maximize her stealth (fire prevention + concealment expert). Remember it's okay to stop firing in order to drop off enemy detection. Enemies can't shoot what they can't see. The longer she stays alive, the more damage she can deal. Yamato is not an easy ship to play at the highest levels of competitive modes, but captains familiar with her quirks will make her the true Queen of the Seas.

 

As with any nation, but especially so for IJN, never show your broadside to an enemy.

Edited by AbyssAngkor
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19 minutes ago, Pyun said:

Well guys. I just got citadeled in the yamato. It was a montana at 12 km. Both of us were perfectly broadside(and he was at full stop) and he damaged me for 48000 damage or roughly half of my health(i died almost instantly). I shot him and because his citadel is so much better designed i did 8k damage to him. Even with the yamatos “best gun in the game” i find it much more difficult to citadel other battleships such as the US battleships. 

Two reasons:

1. Yamato has the highest above-water citadel of any tier 10 BB. All anyone has to do is aim slightly above your waterline and net massive damage. Yamato's immunity zone is between 25km to 20km. At that range, enemies are unlikely to land citadel hits. Never go broadside to anything within 15km, especially Stalingrads with their hypersonic railguns. Instead, point your bow directly at them and you are practically invincible against AP shells (except other Yamatos).

2. Montana has a mostly underwater citadel. At closer ranges, shells will have a flat trajectory and tend to bounce off the citadel roof or hit the water for no damage. Avoid getting into brawling situations in the Yamato unless you are absolutely sure you have the advantage.

 

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4 hours ago, Pyun said:

This leads me to the yamato...(snip)...the only decent perk is the guns are Ok.

January 2nd, and we already have the quote of the year.    Golf clap for you sir.     Well done.  :cap_horn:

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The biggest error I see IJN cruisers make is opening fire when on an approaching attack angle, and then trying to turn out into a retreating angle when the return fire comes from the enemy.

Most experienced players know the “U” shape curve of a turning ship and will do a good job placing a full salvo right at the apex of your turn during the few moments when your ship is perfectly broadside.

Dont do that! If you open fire when on an approaching attack vector make sure you have an island to protect your turn, and wait taking extra hits if necessary before turning until it can be safer.

For IJN cruisers try creating your escape / kiting angle before your first shot and also play with your speed, a typical ambush barrage would be to get to your comfortable shooting range but still be concealed, get your guns rotated and start your turn, fire when your on the later half of your turn, keep firing until you see return fire, accelerate, keep firing, decelerate, keep firing, if your not taking a lot of accurate fire in return just keep this wsad dance, but if your starting to become concerned just go dark, look at your targets guns, when they are turned away again just do the same thing again to them.

IJN cruisers are calculated strikers, the more you think about what your doing he better you will do.

Edited by Visidious
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You hurried all the way from tier I to tier X without mastering any of the ships along the way if that is your conclusion. It is true, that Ibuki. is not as survivable as what a tier IX cruiser should be, but that's about the only exception. 

Japanese cruisers have every tool necessary for a long and successful career - excellent speed, great rudder shift, outstanding concealment... Those are all excellent qualities that more than covers up their drawbacks, that is their bad gun arc and large citadel.

 

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I am here less than a year and play the entire IJN line up to Tier 10 with the LU's....  No CV's.  What everyone above has said "rings true" with my experiences...  My clan doesn't have enough players anymore to fight in the clan battles.....  So, I can't comment there.

The Yammy.....  Well, I love that ship.  I wish WG would give us the "early version of her" with the Mogami turrets though....  Yes, you'd lose a bunch of AA but, the increase in secondaries would be out-right scary at 11 K....  The citadels are there for balance guys.  No ship deserves to be OP and invincible...   Fight her at angles and always fight where the enemy isn't....

Which, leads me to the Cruisers.  I love IJN cruisers.......  They are "in and out" specialists and they can be a significant pain in the butt if played well.  And, to be played well, never operate alone, eh?!  And, as many have experienced in the game,  if you are stern chasing a Mogami and that ship is doing "the Fabuki dance", you are about to receive 20, 10K torps headed your way lads.........  I can't believe the number of ships I've killed in a stern chase....   Let's see the Indianapolis do that !

IJN are all about the "art of war" because they aren't Russian tanks and they aren't American or British Radar HE monsters......they are a little bit of both and yet, the sum of their lessor systems are very effective in the right hands.....

Now, give the IJN radar, smoke and hydro or make their torps a lot harder to spot and.............well, there'd be a whole lot of forum rage you betcha !

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16 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

 

The Yammy.....  Well, I love that ship.  I wish WG would give us the "early version of her" with the Mogami turrets though....  Yes, you'd lose a bunch of AA but, the increase in secondaries would be out-right scary at 11 K.... 

They did. It's just called Musashi.:Smile_teethhappy:

And no, a secondary build is a horrible idea for her.

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4 hours ago, AbyssAngkor said:

The IJN ships focus on three things: massive alpha damage, long range weapons, and concealment.

 

This means that an IJN captain is an opportunist and capitalizes on catching unaware opponents with a massive salvo and fading out before the enemy can retaliate. Their naval doctrine of "Decisive Battle" really comes through WG's design. The obvious drawback is their below average durability (Zao and Shimakaze have the lowest health pools among their peers), slow reload, and large, exposed citadels. They can dish out damage in one stroke, but cannot trade damage in a prolonged fight. Use this to your advantage; choose your targets carefully and make sure that you hold all the cards before you engage. Put yourself in a way that can easily avoid return shots and relocate quickly if need be. Don't get caught by more than 1 enemy ship at a time.

 

As for the Yama-sashi, that citadel cheek below the #1 gun turret is an Achilles' heel. This is a balancing feature since they both have overmatch capabilities that other BBs can only dream of (457mm Conqueror and Republique comes close, but not quite). Build your Yamato to combat fires and maximize her stealth (fire prevention + concealment expert). Remember it's okay to stop firing in order to drop off enemy detection. Enemies can't shoot what they can't see. The longer she stays alive, the more damage she can deal. Yamato is not an easy ship to play at the highest levels of competitive modes, but captains familiar with her quirks will make her the true Queen of the Seas.

 

As with any nation, but especially so for IJN, never show your broadside to an enemy.

And Clan Battles really have brought to light just how Durable Zao can actually be at long to mid range. While it can be Citadeled by my Yamato, I have found Zao to be more resistant to taking citadel hits than some of the other CAs which is rather interesting.

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WG didn't design the Yamato.  The Japanese Navy did.  Like with all real ships, WG only built her model according to the blueprints of the Yamato.    And a 30 second main gun reload is NOT an "insanely long reload".  In point of fact, it's a pretty standard reload time for many battleships.  Those are 18" shells that weight a ton or 2, not puny little shells that can be loaded by hand.

 

Let's get this part straight.

You can't rationalize issues in game play by saying that's historically accurate and the game designers are just following the source material.

That doesn't work.  If that were true then you need to be consistent and give all Kriegsmarine ships that smoke for 20 minutes since it was part of their common tactics.  Even if they didn't have smoke generators almost all ships could generate a temporary smoke by over fueling the boilers.  Ever seen a diesel truck that belches black smoke?  Same thing.  The IJN proved over many battles that they had superior spotting through equipment and training... I don't see that here.  In fact, many battles of WW2  took place at night.  Don't see that here either.  There are countless other examples that I'm sure true naval buffs could point out.

...and don't start on the CV's....we'll be here all day...

There are many many attributes of this game that do not follow real life in the interest of making the game fun and fair for all players.  I applaud that decision.  Games are more fun when you have a decent shot at doing well.  Well, war ain't like that...it ain't fair or fun (most of the time...to sane people).

So please for the love of god, don't ever say a ship doesn't do this or does that too well because that's how it really was, because no it really wasn't...and even if your sorta right on that one thing, your probably wrong on most everything else.

 

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I caught a healthy Myoko that sailed out from between 2 islands into open water at 6 to 7 km distance.  I was in T6 Bayern.  2 salvos (10 AP hits and 2 (?) cits) later, she was gone.  She must have lost track of me while hiding between 2 islands.  When she came out into open water, there was nothing she could do.

I enjoy playing Myoko as well myself.  But the bottom line is, you just have to play IJN cruiser with care.

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The only thought I had from reading this, is you are playing your cruisers wrong.  Whether the cruiser is squishy or tanky, you should not be getting into engagement where your outcome depends on surviving citadel shots from 1 or multiple bb. 

Control your engagement, pick your fights, only get into a stuck-in fight with a bb when you know you can finish them off in that engagement.  Then you will do well in your IJN cruisers.

Yamato is also super tanky as well, even at ~15km.  Instead of bow-in to your certain death against multiple enemies, you point your butt at them.  Let the most dangerous bb look at your butt, and point your broadside at the weakest ship, then delete them with your full 9 gun broadside.  Repeat on the next weakest, etc.  As long as you are moving away at a moderate speed you wont get swarmed, and you can easily 1v3 doing this.

Edited by mixmkz

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11 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

 

Let's get this part straight.

You can't rationalize issues in game play by saying that's historically accurate and the game designers are just following the source material.

That doesn't work.  If that were true then you need to be consistent and give all Kriegsmarine ships that smoke for 20 minutes since it was part of their common tactics.  Even if they didn't have smoke generators almost all ships could generate a temporary smoke by over fueling the boilers.  Ever seen a diesel truck that belches black smoke?  Same thing.  The IJN proved over many battles that they had superior spotting through equipment and training... I don't see that here.  In fact, many battles of WW2  took place at night.  Don't see that here either.  There are countless other examples that I'm sure true naval buffs could point out.

...and don't start on the CV's....we'll be here all day...

There are many many attributes of this game that do not follow real life in the interest of making the game fun and fair for all players.  I applaud that decision.  Games are more fun when you have a decent shot at doing well.  Well, war ain't like that...it ain't fair or fun (most of the time...to sane people).

So please for the love of god, don't ever say a ship doesn't do this or does that too well because that's how it really was, because no it really wasn't...and even if your sorta right on that one thing, your probably wrong on most everything else.

 

One aspect of the game that the developers try to accurately model is the armor design for each ship. The Yamato was designed with unique armor scheme that set it apart from other ships in real life. In game the developers modeled that same armor scheme which gives the Yamato some unique strengths and weaknesses. On top of that the Yamato does not really need a buff, it is strong in its own right but weak when played incorrectly like the OP is doing.

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The Yamato’s job is to kill ships so they can’t punish you. HP is a resource you trade for position and kills. Proper management of HP can make even a Die Hard a survivable and beneficial trade.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Capt_h2o said:

As soon as the OP complained about the Yamato this thread was dead. There is a reason it's the most used BB in ranked and clan battles!

Is it? I would not have guessed that at all.

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6 hours ago, Visidious said:

The biggest error I see IJN cruisers make is opening fire when on an approaching attack angle, and then trying to turn out into a retreating angle when the return fire comes from the enemy.

Most experienced players know the “U” shape curve of a turning ship and will do a good job placing a full salvo right at the apex of your turn during the few moments when your ship is perfectly broadside.

Dont do that! If you open fire when on an approaching attack vector make sure you have an island to protect your turn, and wait taking extra hits if necessary before turning until it can be safer.

For IJN cruisers try creating your escape / kiting angle before your first shot and also play with your speed, a typical ambush barrage would be to get to your comfortable shooting range but still be concealed, get your guns rotated and start your turn, fire when your on the later half of your turn, keep firing until you see return fire, accelerate, keep firing, decelerate, keep firing, if your not taking a lot of accurate fire in return just keep this wsad dance, but if your starting to become concerned just go dark, look at your targets guns, when they are turned away again just do the same thing again to them.

IJN cruisers are calculated strikers, the more you think about what your doing he better you will do.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more. And these can be generally applied to most non tanked cruisers. I rarely take big hits when I angled away from my ibuki. Same thing cannot be said to my DM though...

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8 hours ago, AbyssAngkor said:

The IJN ships focus on three things: massive alpha damage, long range weapons, and concealment.

 

This means that an IJN captain is an opportunist and capitalizes on catching unaware opponents with a massive salvo and fading out before the enemy can retaliate. Their naval doctrine of "Decisive Battle" really comes through WG's design. The obvious drawback is their below average durability (Zao and Shimakaze have the lowest health pools among their peers), slow reload, and large, exposed citadels. They can dish out damage in one stroke, but cannot trade damage in a prolonged fight. Use this to your advantage; choose your targets carefully and make sure that you hold all the cards before you engage. Put yourself in a way that can easily avoid return shots and relocate quickly if need be. Don't get caught by more than 1 enemy ship at a time.

 

As for the Yama-sashi, that citadel cheek below the #1 gun turret is an Achilles' heel. This is a balancing feature since they both have overmatch capabilities that other BBs can only dream of (457mm Conqueror and Republique comes close, but not quite). Build your Yamato to combat fires and maximize her stealth (fire prevention + concealment expert). Remember it's okay to stop firing in order to drop off enemy detection. Enemies can't shoot what they can't see. The longer she stays alive, the more damage she can deal. Yamato is not an easy ship to play at the highest levels of competitive modes, but captains familiar with her quirks will make her the true Queen of the Seas.

 

As with any nation, but especially so for IJN, never show your broadside to an enemy.

 

8 hours ago, AbyssAngkor said:

Two reasons:

1. Yamato has the highest above-water citadel of any tier 10 BB. All anyone has to do is aim slightly above your waterline and net massive damage. Yamato's immunity zone is between 25km to 20km. At that range, enemies are unlikely to land citadel hits. Never go broadside to anything within 15km, especially Stalingrads with their hypersonic railguns. Instead, point your bow directly at them and you are practically invincible against AP shells (except other Yamatos).

2. Montana has a mostly underwater citadel. At closer ranges, shells will have a flat trajectory and tend to bounce off the citadel roof or hit the water for no damage. Avoid getting into brawling situations in the Yamato unless you are absolutely sure you have the advantage.

 

What a breath of fresh air. To read an informative, and helpful comment without the extra fat that is so on trend here. 

A good start to 2019 I'll say. Thank you   :cap_like: @AbyssAngkor

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