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Sir_Davos_Seaworth

Dumb co-op questions...

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I'm gonna summon @AdmiralThunder and any other co op mains that want to chime in...

I don't play much co op, but I did yesterday to get serious about steel grinding... No I didn't loose any, but I did get surprised more than couple times... 

Do the bots know they have consumables? My Minotaur smoke got charged my a red Mino and D.M...I kept waiting for the D.M. to radar me and blast me to bits, but I only got spotted at bad breath distance... Yikes. 

One thing some of them seem to be scary good at is torp dodging. I'm pretty sure :Peter Parker: was in a Bismarck when I rushed him in my Eugen. 

Finally, I hope no one takes this the wrong way...If your a co op main, and have grind to Tier X, you should know the bots like to ram things.. I saw way to many silly 1 for 1 ramming trades...as opposed to slamming on the brakes, dodging and passing out citadels....

Just me? Let me know..

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Bots also never miss in Co-op and they will always start fires. The damn bot CVs is also annoying but they don’t manual drop. Their AI has certainly improved a lot from 3 years ago but they don’t know the concept of angling, shell avoidance and are brain dead compared to human ships.

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I have been radared in co-op.  The algorithm used to determine usage may not be 100% correct, but the bots will pop radar on you.

They can and do use damage control and damage repair correctly (sometimes).

If you want your torps to hit, you have to get close.  Insanely close.  Two kilometers close.

I don't know it they use torpedo reload or main battery reload.

You would have to ask a CV main if they use dfaa properly.

DD's will smoke up as soon as they get spotted.  The result is that the ships behind get covered while the dd continues to power forward.

The following ships won't stay in the smoke though.

Bots are super aggressive, hyperaccurate and fearless.  If you are reckless, they will stomp a mudhole in your back and then walk it dry.  They will focus fire you until you die.

They also dodge torps like an absolute boss.

 

Edited by Captain_Slattery
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I have no evidence to back this up but I think the AI is dumbed down a bit in the lower tiers.  It might be subtle but I think it's there - I just played back to back coop games in my T9 Fletcher and T3 Vampire.  Maybe a slight delay in dodging torps, etc.  Thoughts?

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Yep, bots usually charge straight ahead.

The DD's will smoke when detected, but won't stop in it to benefit.

They know when you drop torps and typically evade immediately.  If they are targeting someone else you may get them in undetected.

Bots use damage control immediately.  As soon as they put out that one fire or flood, get another one on them and rack up the damage.

If you have bots on your team, let them go to the front.  They will try to torp through you, are basically worthless, and will charge in for a ram or stop just short of it and engage in a sort of bot staring contest.  Let them be the targeted bait for the red bots while you rain fire on them unchallenged.

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I cannot recall ever being rammed by a bot in co-op.....deliberately. 

Bots never miss?  They miss a lot in my experience. They are often more accurate that living players but they do miss. I have been in co-op matches where it came down to two BBs.  1 a bot and 1 a real living person.  Bot at full health.  Living person half health.  Living person wins cause bot misses a bunch. Not always but I have seen this happen a bunch. 

I wish bots were better.  Hell most players have well over a 90% win rate in co-op.  

Edited by dmckay

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55 minutes ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

I'm gonna summon @AdmiralThunder and any other co op mains that want to chime in...

I don't play much co op, but I did yesterday to get serious about steel grinding... No I didn't loose any, but I did get surprised more than couple times... 

Do the bots know they have consumables? My Minotaur smoke got charged my a red Mino and D.M...I kept waiting for the D.M. to radar me and blast me to bits, but I only got spotted at bad breath distance... Yikes. 

One thing some of them seem to be scary good at is torp dodging. I'm pretty sure :Peter Parker: was in a Bismarck when I rushed him in my Eugen. 

Finally, I hope no one takes this the wrong way...If your a co op main, and have grind to Tier X, you should know the bots like to ram things.. I saw way to many silly 1 for 1 ramming trades...as opposed to slamming on the brakes, dodging and passing out citadels....

Just me? Let me know..

Yes bots will use consumables other than DC and repair, but only when they are functioning at a high level. Otherwise, they seem to ignore them. Bots will ram you sometimes if you get too close. Bots have random levels of competence and you will see a lot more competence from the bots at high tier than low tier. When bot shooting is spot on and their driving and cooperation are all at high levels, is when you get the 'killer' bots. They will drive in a pack and focus one player down at a time. If you are not on your toes, you will lose to the bots. I had a bot pop DFAA on me yesterday in a T8 battle. I haven't noticed it at lower tiers.

 

47 minutes ago, alex08060 said:

Bots also never miss in Co-op and they will always start fires. The damn bot CVs is also annoying but they don’t manual drop. Their AI has certainly improved a lot from 3 years ago but they don’t know the concept of angling, shell avoidance and are brain dead compared to human ships.

The bots do miss and don't always start fires. Now when the bots are functioning at high level, they do hit a lot and start a lot of fires.

 

13 minutes ago, Hiro804 said:

I have no evidence to back this up but I think the AI is dumbed down a bit in the lower tiers.  It might be subtle but I think it's there - I just played back to back coop games in my T9 Fletcher and T3 Vampire.  Maybe a slight delay in dodging torps, etc.  Thoughts?

I don't have hard stats to back it up, but yes, the bots get better as you go up in tiers. You can still get very good bots in low tier, but it is rare. You can get very bad bots in high tier, but it is rare IMO.

 

9 minutes ago, desmo_2 said:

Yep, bots usually charge straight ahead.

The DD's will smoke when detected, but won't stop in it to benefit.

They know when you drop torps and typically evade immediately.  If they are targeting someone else you may get them in undetected.

Bots use damage control immediately.  As soon as they put out that one fire or flood, get another one on them and rack up the damage.

If you have bots on your team, let them go to the front.  They will try to torp through you, are basically worthless, and will charge in for a ram or stop just short of it and engage in a sort of bot staring contest.  Let them be the targeted bait for the red bots while you rain fire on them unchallenged.

Even if you turn off the torpedo targeting cone, bots that are focused on you will dodge your torps. But bots behind each other will sometimes eat torps you shoot at the first bot. I had a Conga Line formed up chasing my DD and I fired a salvo of torps back up the line. I hit three separate bots with that salvo for one torp each. 

 

2 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Those were valid questions.

Here is a dumb coop question:

when did they give the scharn torpedos?

Scharnhorst has had torps since she came out. Bots usually hold torps until the last minute, so if you are going to pass a torp armed bot, do it very close so the torps don't arm before they hit. Of course then, the bot might just ram you instead.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

I'm gonna summon @AdmiralThunder and any other co op mains that want to chime in...

I don't play much co op, but I did yesterday to get serious about steel grinding... No I didn't loose any, but I did get surprised more than couple times... 

Do the bots know they have consumables? My Minotaur smoke got charged my a red Mino and D.M...I kept waiting for the D.M. to radar me and blast me to bits, but I only got spotted at bad breath distance... Yikes. 

One thing some of them seem to be scary good at is torp dodging. I'm pretty sure :Peter Parker: was in a Bismarck when I rushed him in my Eugen. 

Finally, I hope no one takes this the wrong way...If your a co op main, and have grind to Tier X, you should know the bots like to ram things.. I saw way to many silly 1 for 1 ramming trades...as opposed to slamming on the brakes, dodging and passing out citadels....

Just me? Let me know..

Yes they know they have them but it seems the coding makes them use them poorly...

  • Smoke - the instant the enemy team (the humans) are detected they drop smoke if it is available. They do this over and over as the smoke comes off cool down. They do not sit in it though and use it unless stuck on something and that really isn't on purpose. Instead they just motor on through it. They did actually use the smoke properly a short while back during the attempt to improve the AI. It was one of the few things they tweaked that worked and was good. Sadly it went away with the bad stuff.
  • Radar/Hydro - yes they use it but it seems to be something they trigger the second it is available so it seldom comes into play in the game. I have been busted in my smoke by bot hydro and radar a few times. It is always a surprise. For it to happen it has to be RNG/luck where they just happen to be in range and it just came off cooldown.
  • Fighter/Spotter - they use them the instant they are available. Bots launch planes right after the game starts and will do so throughout the game as they come off cooldown.
  • Speed Boost - this one is hard to tell if they use because there is no real way to know. BUT, the rate of speed some DD's and say French Cruisers are going at the start of the game makes me believe they use it as soon as available. 
  • Torp/Main Battery Reload Booster - this is one I don't believe I have ever seen in use. Like Radar and Hydro it may be a case of the stars having to align for you to be unlucky enough to be in the right spot at the wrong time. I assume they use them as soon as available which kind of negates their benefit and why I haven't seen it.
  • Def AA - like the rest I believe it gets triggered instantly upon availability so it actually is useless when they actually are attacked by the Green CV. BUT I have seen what appeared to be Def AA being used by a bot under attack a few times. I actually run a mod that shows AA tracers and you can tell when Def AA is in use. I am pretty sure they use it just not correctly as with the rest so it is more a timing/luck thing for it to be noticeable and of actual use.
  • DCP/Heal - these definitely get used. However they put out the 1st fire and will heal as soon as it is available and they have healable damage. 

The bots are Ninja Masters at torp dodging. To torp a bot it is best to be inside of 3km and even then you miss at least 1 torp a lot of times. Don't go with the lead indicator or you will  miss, miss often, and miss badly. The bots start their dodge (when they try to) the moment the torps are launched. They don't have to wait for them to be detected they just know. Use the lead indicator to judge the approximate distance needed but unless the bot is clearly turning away always lead short as they turn in on torps 99.9% of the time. It can help sometimes as well to line up your launch and right before clicking M1 hit X to target another ship. Sometimes this fools the AI. "Sometimes". The bot ships don't seem to have rudder shift times as we do. They just have full rudder crank when needed and they also don't seem to lose speed in a turn the way our ships do. This let's them pull off game mechanic defying dodges that would make Euro cry. When you see a GK or say a Gneisenau dodge a full spread of torps from 3km as if they had 10km to do it you know something is fishy. Long range torps are almost impossible with bots. Occasionally you will hit with them but it is really rare. Unless I have a fast reloading torp ship I just don't bother with anything past 3-4km most times.  The bots just relentlessly charge you so you need torps ready for when they get close. Try a preemptive launch with a ship that has a 2 min reload and you could be in big trouble a minute 30 later with them still reloading and a bot on your keester.

Bots also ALWAYS know where you are. I can not stress this enough. They ALWAYS know. You can stay undetected and they won't shoot at you but you can not actually hide from them. Trying to pull out a point win if you are the last green on low health vs a couple or more bots is very hard. They will know where you are at all times and follow you like dogs on a blood trail. They will also always take the perfect angles and route so they close the distance fast even if their ship(s) is/are slower. It's so infuriating LOL. Heck, if you ever wind up down alone and running with the bot hoard after you (but you are undetected) watch how every course change you make is mirrored by the bots and how even their guns will swing to follow you even though you are undetected. I actually run PT and IFA because of this. Can't count the times at the start of the game the instant I get detected the IFA goes off as PT shows 4, 5, 6+ targeting me. I mean the exact instant of the initial detection the bots fire. Because of this always knowing ability trying to ambush them can be hard too. Unless the bot is actually targeting a seen ship the guns return to spawn location of straight ahead and aft. This lets them swing onto you quick. Also, if you are close but say islands block you so it takes a bit to come around to shoot or torp be prepared the second you go detected for them to already have guns on you and they will fire in that EXACT instant of your detection. This despite you never being detected prior. Always expect the bots to know where you are because THEY DO! LOL

Bots also have magical abilities in the main gun department too. They tend to hit you a good 75-80%+ of the time even when you WASD like mad. Does not matter if a bot in A shoots at you in C and you instantly change course and speed; the shells will still fall perfectly on you most times. Have a ship like Worcester or Cleveland, with notoriously long hang time of their shells, shooting at you in a DD as you kite away WASD'ing like mad at max range and they still drop most right on you. Where human fired salvo will fall long or short when the target ship WASD's the bot salvo almost always falls dead on you. They set fires at a rate no human gets and they get citadels and big hits way more than humans can as well. IT's why yolo players die so fast. IF the bots target you as a group you are toast my man. LOL You can angle all you want and manage your repair and such perfectly and they wills till get you. They will get cit's and big hits despite your angling a lot of times plus constantly set you on fire over and over. You on the other hand will bounce salvo after salvo off their angled/nose in bow and if you set them on fire once don't expect it to be easy to do so again after their DCP goes into cool down. They seem to develop some serious fire resistance once they use their DCP.

So while the mode definitely is easier the bots have a lot of cheats that can punish you hard if you take them lightly and don't play properly.

As to the ramming. Lots of player go into Co-op to get through a game as fast as they can.  For many they feel go in and ram the 1st ship they see for some damage and then on to the next game to rinse and repeat is acceptable. They assume the rest of the team will get the win and as it is "just Co-op" they don't care if they actually lose. It's about getting the mission done asap. I don't find this very ethical or good team play but it is what it is. Also, some don't play a lot of Co-op and actually don't know of the bots ramming tendencies and get surprised by it. Also, as I eluded to with the torp dodging the bots are not hindered by rudder shift and losing speed in turns like the humans are (what I believe anyway - just seen too much evidence to believe otherwise) so it is easy for them to counter a human player's attempts at avoiding a ram. I have 10K+ Co-op games and many times even when I see the ram coming there is nothing I can do as the bot coming at me is more maneuverable than me even if in the same exact ship. When they want to ram you 99.9 out of 100 they succeed. 

Nothing to take wrong in what you said. It was a civil discussion and some questions about Co-op which is all any PVE player asks for. 

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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Important notes for the magical torp dodging, bots know if you dropped torps, bots don't have rudder shift time, bots don't lose speed in a turn.

If you want to torp a bot without being point-blank range or having a distraction, detarget them and wait ~2-3 seconds then drop torps.

Warning some bots are allowed to drop torps for about 5 seconds after they are dead in magical firing arcs that will murder you.

1 hour ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

Do the bots know they have consumables? My Minotaur smoke got charged my a red Mino and D.M...I kept waiting for the D.M. to radar me and blast me to bits, but I only got spotted at bad breath distance... Yikes.

Consumables are odd with bots sometimes, I think that if there are options between them they randomly have one, so the D.M. might have had a plane instead of radar.

56 minutes ago, Captain_Slattery said:

You would have to ask a CV main if they use dfaa properly.

Yes, yes they do, my Bouge is so happy that cleveland is now T8.

25 minutes ago, Hiro804 said:

I have no evidence to back this up but I think the AI is dumbed down a bit in the lower tiers.  It might be subtle but I think it's there - I just played back to back coop games in my T9 Fletcher and T3 Vampire.  Maybe a slight delay in dodging torps, etc.  Thoughts?

I can definitely state that this is correct. I recently ground through the Caledon and the Medea and after getting used to the bots at T6-8 it is just silly fun to go pick on the T2-4 bots.

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37 minutes ago, Hiro804 said:

I have no evidence to back this up but I think the AI is dumbed down a bit in the lower tiers.  It might be subtle but I think it's there - I just played back to back coop games in my T9 Fletcher and T3 Vampire.  Maybe a slight delay in dodging torps, etc.  Thoughts?

Yes as you move up the tiers the AI gets better in Co-op. 

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I'm a co-op only (someday I'll jump) player, and sometimes the AI of the bots amazes me.     I've seen a bot bb come to a stop behind an island, then slowly back up because I (in a bb) and another bb player were setting up a flank on it.    It was quite impressive to see the bot react this way--with skilled human intellect/problem solving.   

 

There must have been some rework to bot CV's recently.    Last night I played my Scharn and got torp'd by bot planes 3 times until they killed me.   Each time I was torped they were dropped so close, and at a 90* angle, that I couldn't avoid them.     It seems just a couple of months ago, bot torp planes dropped a little farther back, and if you maneuvered immediately you could dodge some/all of them.   That's no longer the case.

 

And finally a funny story from last night.    Start of the game and I'm in a bb along with another human bb next to me.    Two bot cruisers in front of us start their push, then both make the same ~20* turn towards each other and eventually run into each other's bows.   The bots then sit there for a few seconds, both start backing in a straight line (so they're angled away from each other) for about 1/2 km.     I called the funny sight to the other bb driver's attention---I swear it was like watching bot-bote synchronized swimming!      :cap_wander:

 

I've never seen bots run into each other, and then almost have a "what now?" look on their face!   :cap_haloween:

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A few patches ago WG upped bot's game where winning fell to a 75% thing in COOP but the "it's too hawd" crowd cried and the updated AI was backed out.

I thought it was awesome. AI was actually doing more than blindly rushing the lines.

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2 minutes ago, StoptheViolins said:

A few patches ago WG upped bot's game where winning fell to a 75% thing in COOP but the "it's too hawd" crowd cried and the updated AI was backed out.

I thought it was awesome. AI was actually doing more than blindly rushing the lines.

That is the rub. You want to make the bots harder for experienced players, but you can't make them too hard as new players still need to learn the game in co-op. If the bots are too hard, then you can drive the new players away. I was new when WG tested the 8 vs 16 bots and it would have been too hard for me to learn the game if all bots were like that then. Now, it would be fun.

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3 minutes ago, StoptheViolins said:

A few patches ago WG upped bot's game where winning fell to a 75% thing in COOP but the "it's too hawd" crowd cried and the updated AI was backed out.

I thought it was awesome. AI was actually doing more than blindly rushing the lines.

I will disagree with this. The main complaint was not that it was too hard because the changes really didn't make it harder. The complaint was the way they turned the red bots into human PVP clones who turned tail and ran the instant they got fired at. It made the games drag on and on and on and on and on. It wasn't harder at all it was just LONGGGGER!

The Co-op mains such as myself actually liked how the bots didn't just yolo the center or one cap but instead spread out more, how they actually WASD more, how they weren't so easily lured out of bases and caps, and how they would use their smoke vs just dropping it and keep going. There was a lot of good in that attempt to improve the AI but the way they turned the blood thirsty bot beasts of old into little wussies who just ran away with a whimper all game is what people hated. IF they took that out and left the rest I think most were all in for that.

You have to remember here that for most Co-op mains one of the biggest reasons we play it vs PVP is because it isn't PVP. There is no hiding, running, and camping by the bots. Co-op is an in your face brawl from the get go which is a big part of the appeal. When they took that away it overshadowed the good stuff and ruined the mode. "Hard" wasn't a factor. It isn't hard to chase a bot running away and have to slowly whittle it down. That is just time consuming and boring.

The only time I ever heard any concerns with difficulty was when talking about the lowest tiers. Apparently WG dialed up the abilities of the bots at those low tiers to the point even seasoned players found it hard/somewhat difficult. Some had a fear that those low tier roid bots would be too hard for new players and make people quit. No one complained about they were too good at high tiers that I ever saw.

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Everything Admiral Thunder said.

My main issue with the way they dodge torpedoes is that it frustrates the hell out of destroyer players. I know why they have to do it, because the AI is not, and God willing never will be, as flexible as a human player, but the ability to detect and start evasion straight out of the launcher, and to always know exactly how much speed and rudder to put on and be able to do it without skipping a beat, is more than a little frustrating. When put together, it all adds up to a bit much IMO.

The other issue I have had is with ships that very clearly launch torpedoes after I have destroyed them. As in, I cross their T, they are dead before my bow goes past theirs, but then the launcher on the previously disengaged side nails me.

Bots don't get tired after being online for hours on end, and they don't have ship service costs to worry about.

The final, HUGE advantage the bots have is that they don't have to care about whether they teamkill. They're already locked in co-op, and nobody is going to freeze their account for TK-ing too many times in a month.

All this being said, it'd be fun to imagine a TRON-like world where the bot captains go on forums to rage and scream about their FIVE PERCENT win rates and the initiative and ship upgrades the human players are allowed to enjoy. 

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49 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Yes they know they have them but it seems the coding makes them use them poorly...

  • Smoke - the instant the enemy team (the humans) are detected they drop smoke if it is available. They do this over and over as the smoke comes off cool down. They do not sit in it though and use it unless stuck on something and that really isn't on purpose. Instead they just motor on through it. They did actually use the smoke properly a short while back during the attempt to improve the AI. It was one of the few things they tweaked that worked and was good. Sadly it went away with the bad stuff.
  • Radar/Hydro - yes they use it but it seems to be something they trigger the second it is available so it seldom comes into play in the game. I have been busted in my smoke by bot hydro and radar a few times. It is always a surprise. For it to happen it has to be RNG/luck where they just happen to be in range and it just came off cooldown.
  • Fighter/Spotter - they use them the instant they are available. Bots launch planes right after the game starts and will do so throughout the game as they come off cooldown.
  • Speed Boost - this one is hard to tell if they use because there is no real way to know. BUT, the rate of speed some DD's and say French Cruisers are going at the start of the game makes me believe they use it as soon as available. 
  • Torp/Main Battery Reload Booster - this is one I don't believe I have ever seen in use. Like Radar and Hydro it may be a case of the stars having to align for you to be unlucky enough to be in the right spot at the wrong time. I assume they use them as soon as available which kind of negates their benefit and why I haven't seen it.
  • Def AA - like the rest I believe it gets triggered instantly upon availability so it actually is useless when they actually are attacked by the Green CV. BUT I have seen what appeared to be Def AA being used by a bot under attack a few times. I actually run a mod that shows AA tracers and you can tell when Def AA is in use. I am pretty sure they use it just not correctly as with the rest so it is more a timing/luck thing for it to be noticeable and of actual use.
  • DCP/Heal - these definitely get used. However they put out the 1st fire and will heal as soon as it is available and they have healable damage. 

The bots are Ninja Masters at torp dodging. To torp a bot it is best to be inside of 3km and even then you miss at least 1 torp a lot of times. Don't go with the lead indicator or you will  miss, miss often, and miss badly. The bots start their dodge (when they try to) the moment the torps are launched. They don't have to wait for them to be detected they just know. Use the lead indicator to judge the approximate distance needed but unless the bot is clearly turning away always lead short as they turn in on torps 99.9% of the time. It can help sometimes as well to line up your launch and right before clicking M1 hit X to target another ship. Sometimes this fools the AI. "Sometimes". The bot ships don't seem to have rudder shift times as we do. They just have full rudder crank when needed and they also don't seem to lose speed in a turn the way our ships do. This let's them pull off game mechanic defying dodges that would make Euro cry. When you see a GK or say a Gneisenau dodge a full spread of torps from 3km as if they had 10km to do it you know something is fishy. Long range torps are almost impossible with bots. Occasionally you will hit with them but it is really rare. Unless I have a fast reloading torp ship I just don't bother with anything past 3-4km most times.  The bots just relentlessly charge you so you need torps ready for when they get close. Try a preemptive launch with a ship that has a 2 min reload and you could be in big trouble a minute 30 later with them still reloading and a bot on your keester.

Bots also ALWAYS know where you are. I can not stress this enough. They ALWAYS know. You can stay undetected and they won't shoot at you but you can not actually hide from them. Trying to pull out a point win if you are the last green on low health vs a couple or more bots is very hard. They will know where you are at all times and follow you like dogs on a blood trail. They will also always take the perfect angles and route so they close the distance fast even if their ship(s) is/are slower. It's so infuriating LOL. Heck, if you ever wind up down alone and running with the bot hoard after you (but you are undetected) watch how every course change you make is mirrored by the bots and how even their guns will swing to follow you even though you are undetected. I actually run PT and IFA because of this. Can't count the times at the start of the game the instant I get detected the IFA goes off as PT shows 4, 5, 6+ targeting me. I mean the exact instant of the initial detection the bots fire. Because of this always knowing ability trying to ambush them can be hard too. Unless the bot is actually targeting a seen ship the guns return to spawn location of straight ahead and aft. This lets them swing onto you quick. Also, if you are close but say islands block you so it takes a bit to come around to shoot or torp be prepared the second you go detected for them to already have guns on you and they will fire in that EXACT instant of your detection. This despite you never being detected prior. Always expect the bots to know where you are because THEY DO! LOL

Bots also have magical abilities in the main gun department too. They tend to hit you a good 75-80%+ of the time even when you WASD like mad. Does not matter if a bot in A shoots at you in C and you instantly change course and speed; the shells will still fall perfectly on you most times. Have a ship like Worcester or Cleveland, with notoriously long hang time of their shells, shooting at you in a DD as you kite away WASD'ing like mad at max range and they still drop most right on you. Where human fired salvo will fall long or short when the target ship WASD's the bot salvo almost always falls dead on you. They set fires at a rate no human gets and they get citadels and big hits way more than humans can as well. IT's why yolo players die so fast. IF the bots target you as a group you are toast my man. LOL You can angle all you want and manage your repair and such perfectly and they wills till get you. They will get cit's and big hits despite your angling a lot of times plus constantly set you on fire over and over. You on the other hand will bounce salvo after salvo off their angled/nose in bow and if you set them on fire once don't expect it to be easy to do so again after their DCP goes into cool down. They seem to develop some serious fire resistance once they use their DCP.

So while the mode definitely is easier the bots have a lot of cheats that can punish you hard if you take them lightly and don't play properly.

As to the ramming. Lots of player go into Co-op to get through a game as fast as they can.  For many they feel go in and ram the 1st ship they see for some damage and then on to the next game to rinse and repeat is acceptable. They assume the rest of the team will get the win and as it is "just Co-op" they don't care if they actually lose. It's about getting the mission done asap. I don't find this very ethical or good team play but it is what it is. Also, some don't play a lot of Co-op and actually don't know of the bots ramming tendencies and get surprised by it. Also, as I eluded to with the torp dodging the bots are not hindered by rudder shift and losing speed in turns like the humans are (what I believe anyway - just seen too much evidence to believe otherwise) so it is easy for them to counter a human player's attempts at avoiding a ram. I have 10K+ Co-op games and many times even when I see the ram coming there is nothing I can do as the bot coming at me is more maneuverable than me even if in the same exact ship. When they want to ram you 99.9 out of 100 they succeed. 

Nothing to take wrong in what you said. It was a civil discussion and some questions about Co-op which is all any PVE player asks for. 

@AdmiralThunder  and @Kizarvexis Have as usual, summed it up rather nicely! 

Edited by Jim_Byrnes

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17 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Everything Admiral Thunder said.

My main issue with the way they dodge torpedoes is that it frustrates the hell out of destroyer players. I know why they have to do it, because the AI is not, and God willing never will be, as flexible as a human player, but the ability to detect and start evasion straight out of the launcher, and to always know exactly how much speed and rudder to put on and be able to do it without skipping a beat, is more than a little frustrating. When put together, it all adds up to a bit much IMO.

The other issue I have had is with ships that very clearly launch torpedoes after I have destroyed them. As in, I cross their T, they are dead before my bow goes past theirs, but then the launcher on the previously disengaged side nails me.

Bots don't get tired after being online for hours on end, and they don't have ship service costs to worry about.

The final, HUGE advantage the bots have is that they don't have to care about whether they teamkill. They're already locked in co-op, and nobody is going to freeze their account for TK-ing too many times in a month.

All this being said, it'd be fun to imagine a TRON-like world where the bot captains go on forums to rage and scream about their FIVE PERCENT win rates and the initiative and ship upgrades the human players are allowed to enjoy. 

Yeah the ghost torps are freaking annoying beyond belief. 5 seconds after a ship explodes and is sinking it will suddenly launch torps. Total bull. They also seem to be able to launch at angles that are impossible too. I have had ship nose on to me who send torps at me with no bow mounted launchers. More bull. LOL

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5 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Yeah the ghost torps are freaking annoying beyond belief. 5 seconds after a ship explodes and is sinking it will suddenly launch torps. Total bull. They also seem to be able to launch at angles that are impossible too. I have had ship nose on to me who send torps at me with no bow mounted launchers. More bull. LOL

They are channelling the ghost of Teddy Sheehan, but the feat which made him immortal was done with an Oerlikon, not with torpedoes.

For those who don't know, Sheehan is one of those brave souls who stayed on his sinking ship and kept blazing away to try to distract the Japanese from strafing his colleagues. Eyewitness accounts report the final tracers COMING OUT OF THE WATER, although how the gun was still cycling under those conditions I will never know.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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2 hours ago, Captain_Slattery said:

I have been radared in co-op.  The algorithm used to determine usage may not be 100% correct, but the bots will pop radar on you.

They can and do use damage control and damage repair correctly.

If you want your torps to hit, you have to get close.  Insanely close.  Two kilometers close.

I don't know it they use torpedo reload or main battery reload.

You would have to ask a CV main if they use dfaa properly.

DD's will smoke up as soon as they get spotted.  The result is that the ships behind get covered while the dd continues to power forward.

The following ships won't stay in the smoke though.

Bots are super aggressive, hyperaccurate and fearless.  If you are reckless, they will stomp a mudhole in your back and then walk it dry.  They will focus fire you until you die.

They also dodge torps like an absolute boss.

 

They definitely have and use dfaa,but only once planes are in range. Had a match other day in my hiryu. 6 dfaa cruisers and a Sims. I went for the carrier snipe and called it a day.

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2 hours ago, desmo_2 said:

They know when you drop torps and typically evade immediately.  If they are targeting someone else you may get them in undetected.

Bots use damage control immediately.  As soon as they put out that one fire or flood, get another one on them and rack up the damage.

If you have bots on your team, let them go to the front.

The first: Have had success at most ranges with the ‘tap x to unlock’ method, but prefer to be so close or attacking out of ambush where there’s no such thing as dodging.

The second: My experience, especially as a carrier drive in Co-op, is that bots WON’T use damage control for just a single fire.

There needs to be at least TWO fires or flooding (and/or a knocked out main battery?) before they will use DCP.

This is a more recent thing; (I’ve played lots of Co-op carrier games lately,) it used to be as you said.

The third: YES; but SUPPORT them. It has also been my experience that if you kill the lead Red bot before it can ram its opposite, the Green bot will often enough do pretty good.

1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Yes as you move up the tiers the AI gets better in Co-op. 

(see above.)

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Wow, thanks guys! :Smile_medal: I thought I was seeing things, guess I wasn't...I really haven't seen a huge jump in AI becoming self aware as I went up the tiers....but I'm not sure I've played enough to know what I'm seeing LOL... 

As far as dumb questions, I asked at the start of a game: "Kill all no Cap?" and I got asked if I was speaking English. ? Since I was in my Dunk I said "Oui!" and off we went. 

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5 minutes ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

Wow, thanks guys! :Smile_medal: I thought I was seeing things, guess I wasn't...I really haven't seen a huge jump in AI becoming self aware as I went up the tiers....but I'm not sure I've played enough to know what I'm seeing LOL... 

As far as dumb questions, I asked at the start of a game: "Kill all no Cap?" and I got asked if I was speaking English. ? Since I was in my Dunk I said "Oui!" and off we went. 

Cap as you can get good XP from capping.

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12 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I will disagree with this. The main complaint was not that it was too hard because the changes really didn't make it harder. The complaint was the way they turned the red bots into human PVP clones who turned tail and ran the instant they got fired at. It made the games drag on and on and on and on and on. It wasn't harder at all it was just LONGGGGER!

The Co-op mains such as myself actually liked how the bots didn't just yolo the center or one cap but instead spread out more, how they actually WASD more, how they weren't so easily lured out of bases and caps, and how they would use their smoke vs just dropping it and keep going. There was a lot of good in that attempt to improve the AI but the way they turned the blood thirsty bot beasts of old into little wussies who just ran away with a whimper all game is what people hated. IF they took that out and left the rest I think most were all in for that.

You have to remember here that for most Co-op mains one of the biggest reasons we play it vs PVP is because it isn't PVP. There is no hiding, running, and camping by the bots. Co-op is an in your face brawl from the get go which is a big part of the appeal. When they took that away it overshadowed the good stuff and ruined the mode. "Hard" wasn't a factor. It isn't hard to chase a bot running away and have to slowly whittle it down. That is just time consuming and boring.

The only time I ever heard any concerns with difficulty was when talking about the lowest tiers. Apparently WG dialed up the abilities of the bots at those low tiers to the point even seasoned players found it hard/somewhat difficult. Some had a fear that those low tier roid bots would be too hard for new players and make people quit. No one complained about they were too good at high tiers that I ever saw.

You should go back and read through them. Most of them were it's "too hard."  Oddly it was the quickest back out in WG's history much to my dismay.  

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I've found that, when I was brushing off my snowflakes, Myoko is a solid choice for co-op. She can set fires easily and can citadel cruisers at close range. Additionally, she has torps for situational purposes, i.e. when a ship happens to drive by.

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