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Radar and how to deal with it

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Missouri can be detected before it can use radar.

USN radar cruisers always hide in very predictable spots in maps.

Russian cruisers, if they are not hiding behind islands,are detected before it can use radar.

Black is the only real threat,but then taking RPF will give you an idea where it will be.

Adapting to radar consists of learning every radar range and duration, and then positioning in a way to outplay it.

 

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You can deal with it....its just your game won't be a great deal of fun!

I fully supported the introduction of the radar into the game. It adds variety to the game and challenge. My only worry was what would happen if it became the norm and too numerous.

Let's face it, the DDs have been put in a place where their main weapon for damage is now referred to more and more as an 'area denial' tool lol. Therefore the spotting, capping role is now pretty much everything. A little difficult if many ships have radar (even worse if they are communicating as a team).

Unfortunately I think what happened with the CVs a while back due to constant complaints of 'CV cancer' etc, is exactly what will happen with DDs. Constant complaints, constant changes to appease certain players, until we're in a place where we don't know what to do with them.

The game is fantastic, I just wonder if the constant changes and over reliance on gimmicks, as well as the blurring between ship types instead of distinct differences will end up having a detrimental affect. :Smile_honoring:

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52 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

You can deal with it....its just your game won't be a great deal of fun!

I fully supported the introduction of the radar into the game. It adds variety to the game and challenge. My only worry was what would happen if it became the norm and too numerous.

Let's face it, the DDs have been put in a place where their main weapon for damage is now referred to more and more as an 'area denial' tool lol. Therefore the spotting, capping role is now pretty much everything. A little difficult if many ships have radar (even worse if they are communicating as a team).

Unfortunately I think what happened with the CVs a while back due to constant complaints of 'CV cancer' etc, is exactly what will happen with DDs. Constant complaints, constant changes to appease certain players, until we're in a place where we don't know what to do with them.

The game is fantastic, I just wonder if the constant changes and over reliance on gimmicks, as well as the blurring between ship types instead of distinct differences will end up having a detrimental affect. :Smile_honoring:

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In T8-10, you 100% have to have a very good escape route planned out and available until you know where the radar cruisers are. Up to T7, as long as you can outspot the ships around you, you can play more agressively and get away with it. This stops at T8 because of the radar cruisers. When I approach a cap, I always do so with a plan on how to escape if I get radared. I stay at the back of the cap and make sure my bow is already turned to escape. After 3-5 minutes the radar cruisers have generally made their presence known and it is easier to avoid them. 

You have to be willing to wait on a cap or even let the red team get it. You also have to realize that in the upper tiers, your job is more vision control than damage. 

 

ETA: You can also play the faster DDs, which make getting out of radar range much easier. Shimi, Grozzo, Khab, and to some extent z-52 have decent speed to get away when you get pinged.

Edited by mrieder79

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2 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

You can deal with it....its just your game won't be a great deal of fun!

And that is the problem right there.

It's a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

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2 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

You can deal with it....its just your game won't be a great deal of fun!

I fully supported the introduction of the radar into the game. It adds variety to the game and challenge. My only worry was what would happen if it became the norm and too numerous.

Let's face it, the DDs have been put in a place where their main weapon for damage is now referred to more and more as an 'area denial' tool lol. Therefore the spotting, capping role is now pretty much everything. A little difficult if many ships have radar (even worse if they are communicating as a team).

Unfortunately I think what happened with the CVs a while back due to constant complaints of 'CV cancer' etc, is exactly what will happen with DDs. Constant complaints, constant changes to appease certain players, until we're in a place where we don't know what to do with them.

The game is fantastic, I just wonder if the constant changes and over reliance on gimmicks, as well as the blurring between ship types instead of distinct differences will end up having a detrimental affect. :Smile_honoring:

It depends on how you define "fun".  Also consider that if radar was removed (not saying that it will be, just spit balling here), would all those battleships be having "fun" when DDs were relentlessly hunting them from stealth?  

 

Regarding radar itself, I still maintain that only the ship mounting the radar should gain the benefit of the radar consumable.  And at best, the only benefit that team mates should get is for the spotted enemies to show up on the minimap.  Doing this would greatly reduce the power of radar as a consumable that benefits the entire team.

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13 minutes ago, Prothall said:

And that is the problem right there.

It's a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

"Fun" goes both ways.  Is it "fun" to be in a BB that's being hunted by a torp boat DD?

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17 minutes ago, Prothall said:

And that is the problem right there.

It's a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

Didn't say they weren't supposed to be.

So now you look at the player base, see what most of that player base plays, and make the game fun for them. :Smile_honoring:

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

It depends on how you define "fun".  Also consider that if radar was removed (not saying that it will be, just spit balling here), would all those battleships be having "fun" when DDs were relentlessly hunting them from stealth?  

 

Regarding radar itself, I still maintain that only the ship mounting the radar should gain the benefit of the radar consumable.  And at best, the only benefit that team mates should get is for the spotted enemies to show up on the minimap.  Doing this would greatly reduce the power of radar as a consumable that benefits the entire team.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder, but I guess as a minimum, I would define having fun to be at least being able to play the role WG has defined for your ship type and in doing so get similar rewards (XP/credits) at end game (to reflect your contribution).

If you took all the radar away that would be taking it away from Cruisers (not so much BBs). The fact is, the role of the BBs is to support its cruisers and destroyers so that they can kill the enemy destroyers first. That way they don't have to worry about DDs sneaking around. If they don't support their front line and their front line folds, then they still have DDs sneaking around, because in general they don't have the radar.

That is why I laugh at those that want a particular ship type to be good against everything - if you have failed to support your team, you should expect to be at a disadvantage and probably lose. Simple really (IMO). :Smile_honoring:

 

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On 12/29/2018 at 9:07 AM, Prothall said:

And that is the problem right there.

It's a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

I find facing radar heavy enemy teams quite fun because its a challenge.

Baiting out radar, tracking the cool downs in your head without taking much damage is soul crushing to the enemy.  Even better when I kill their DDs right out from under their nose.

Radar in and of itself is a balancing tool for the DDs.  The US, German, and PA lines tend to be a little more sluggish evading damage than the IJN torp boats.  It helps that line out quite a bit.

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4 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I find facing radar heavy enemy teams quite fun because its a challenge.

Baiting out radar, tracking the cool downs in your head without taking much damage is soul crushing to the enemy.  Even better when I kill their DDs right out from under their nose.

Radar in and of itself is a balancing tool for the DDs.  The US, German, and PA lines tend to be a little more sluggish evading damage than the IJN torp boats.  It helps that line out quite a bit.

My problem with radar is any dummy can mash a button and ruin your day. It causes passive play and most sheep don't need an excuse to be passive. I like games that reward aggressive play and radar takes away from that by just mashing a button when your team tells you to or in some cases just being detected.

If wargaming would take free captain's skill situational awareness out of the game I would have less of a problem with radar.

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6 minutes ago, Prothall said:

My problem with radar is any dummy can mash a button and ruin your day. It causes passive play and most sheep don't need an excuse to be passive. I like games that reward aggressive play and radar takes away from that by just mashing a button when your team tells you to or in some cases just being detected.

If wargaming would take free captain's skill situational awareness out of the game I would have less of a problem with radar.

God forbid something in hte game makes you think or gives pause to yolo rushing.

Can you imagine playing without situational awareness in a DD would be crazy punishing.  IJN torp boats and other super sneaky DDs would dominate.  You are just going along and them, bam taking fire.  More likely you wish that CA didnt have it, and that just an unfair advantage.

Instead try using the max range circles on your mini map to measure your distance to likely radar positions and drive accordingly.  Spend more time in the early and mid game spotting the radar for your team to murder.  You will have a big crapeating grin the day you realize DDs still dominate the vision war.

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I am the first to admit that radar is a necessity to counter the DD threat, but it has gotten out of hand.  The other part that is frustrating is that the way the dynamics work in the game is not realistic at all.  Consider this, WOW radar has 360 degree view and is not obstructed by islands.  Modern day radar does not even work like that.  Second, considering these are supposed to be WWI & WWII ships, even if any enemy did have you on their radar, there were no ways back then to share targeting data between ships the way we can do it today.  Third, even if your ship was equipped with radar the information did not get passed along to the ships Gun Fire Control system, which didnt exist at the time.  So if a ship was in smoke, the best you could do is know that it is there, not direct your guns to the exact spot of the ship.  Nothing about how the radar system in WOW is realistic.  Don't even get me started on the Detected Indicator that alerts cruiser captains with low concealment that a DD has just come within radar range.  The detected indicator needs to be removed altogether.  In my opinion radar should only reveal ships within range of itself, but no other ships should get that information, and the detected indicator needs to be removed on all classes of ships or made into a commander skill.  

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On 12/29/2018 at 6:07 AM, Prothall said:

And that is the problem right there.

It's a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

This.  Very this.  Radar ruins the game more than not for spotting/capping DDs.  My solution is to play gunboat DDs at range.

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On 12/29/2018 at 10:07 PM, Prothall said:

And that is the problem right there.

It's a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

What is "fun"?

For me, I find smoke-camping, "Dakka-Dakka-Dakka" damage-farming DD gameplay extremely boring and repetitive.

I'd rather be in the open, scout for the team and help my team win. I don't even mind if I only get 20k or 30k damage games, as long as our team wins.





 

Edited by RyuuohD_NA
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18 hours ago, evil2002usna_gunner said:

Second, considering these are supposed to be WWI & WWII ships, even if any enemy did have you on their radar, there were no ways back then to share targeting data between ships the way we can do it today.  Third, even if your ship was equipped with radar the information did not get passed along to the ships Gun Fire Control system, which didnt exist at the time.

None of the indirect fire possible in the game is possible through the 20th century. The ability to spot and calculate firing solutions for yourself was hard enough. Trying to pass the location, speed and course info to a third ship (which is also moving) unable to see the target in real-time, then spotting that ships shot fall (nobody is using tracer rounds) and reporting back is ludicrous, but we all count on it every game. Radar just provides on more way to spot. Think about telling a quarterback that is dodging a pass rush how to hit a receiver he cannot see over a headset.

Your wrong on the second point. Starting in WWII fire control was being tied into radar (especially US and RN). Ships did not need to visually see opponents to shoot enemies. You could spot your shot much more accurately too. By the end of the war, it was much more accurate than visual rangefinding and could see better at night and in bad visibilty. The IJN as Surigao Strait never saw the US BBs shooting at them (not sure if they could at least see the distant muzzel flashes but you can't shoot at those) and the US had the IJN locked pretty quickly. All using radar.

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I only have the shimakaze at tier 10, so I can only speak to that.

Before radar you could sneak in real close, 6.5KM, for your attack. With radar, thats been pushed out to 9KM. This has made getting hits a lot rougher.

Holy Cow, if you get spotted as a DD at tier 10, you can die real fast. So play it safe for the first 8 minutes. Give the BB's some time to smash the radar cruisers.

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One problem with the complaints about destroyers and radar is that people seem to want to play destroyers as if they are submarines.

During WWII Destroyers never crept up on a fleet alone hiding behind a smoke screen, especially if there was air cover around. If they had they wouldn't have lasted long.

For the most part destroyers provided escort and fought against submarines. After all their original name was "Torpedo boat destroyers".

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  1. Radar doesn't kill you.  Your own positioning/map awareness kills you.  If you get caught out in the open and gunned down by a radar cruiser, it's your own fault for not recognizing the threat and behaving accordingly.
  2. When you do play against radar ships, it's fairly easy to mitigate the threat simply by adjusting your own play.  US cruiser radars can be a pain because of their long duration and relatively long range, but as others have said you'll be able to spot those ships before you're in radar range (and should be cognizant of which islands they're likely to hide behind on various maps).  Soviet radar has that extreme range, but the relatively short duration means you shouldn't take very much damage when you get lit up by it; ditto for destroyer radars.
  3. Being spotted by radar means nothing if the enemy can't shoot you.  Use island cover to your advantage, and don't maneuver predictably.
  4. Make killing those radar cruisers your own priority.  Keep them spotted where possible, use your torpedoes to push them out from behind island cover (or better yet, sink them while they sit there), and when you have the opportunity to do so without exposing yourself to too much return fire, add your own guns to the fire raining down on them. 
  5. Mash the F3 key whenever an enemy radar cruiser is spotted.  It will rarely result in more than one or two of your teammates switching their fire to that ship, but even getting one ship to target him can dissuade that radar cruiser from pushing into a position to keep you lit/continue firing at you.
  6. Take the time to watch some of @Destroyer_KuroshioKai's YouTube videos, many of which deal with exactly this issue.  Flambass is another excellent player to emulate.
  7. Above all else, know your enemy!  Study this table and memorize it.  Heck, print it out and tape it to your monitor if need be.  Also keep in mind that many high tier radar ships will be running the Surveillance Radar Mod 1, which increases radar duration by 20%. 
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On 1/3/2019 at 9:45 PM, GoldDust2015 said:

One problem with the complaints about destroyers and radar is that people seem to want to play destroyers as if they are submarines.

During WWII Destroyers never crept up on a fleet alone hiding behind a smoke screen, especially if there was air cover around. If they had they wouldn't have lasted long.

For the most part destroyers provided escort and fought against submarines. After all their original name was "Torpedo boat destroyers".

During WWII, there wasn't computer video games.

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On 1/3/2019 at 9:45 PM, GoldDust2015 said:

One problem with the complaints about destroyers and radar is that people seem to want to play destroyers as if they are submarines.

During WWII Destroyers never crept up on a fleet alone hiding behind a smoke screen, especially if there was air cover around. If they had they wouldn't have lasted long.

For the most part destroyers provided escort and fought against submarines. After all their original name was "Torpedo boat destroyers".

Actually this occurred frequently through out WWII on both oceans.  These usually consisted of DDs sometimes lead by CL and CAs sweeping areas of the ocean to destroy enemy vessels or even just contest control over that area of the sea.  Some of the more famous events were the First Battle of Narvik, the Battle of Ushant, and tons of actions in the Solomon's Campaign.  The fighting was often done at night, and in some instances positioning using islands to mask the approach from enemy radar was utilized.

Smoke was used often during the engagements.  Destroyers acted as the work horses for most of the navies they served in.  Everything from escort duty to surface action groups, even transports for much of the Pacific campaign for the IJN.

At the end of the day none of that matters, this is a game not a simulator. 

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