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demeflac

Why Kutuzov Smoke firing penalty is bigger than other similar CL?

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Kutuzov's smoke firing penalty is using 203mm baseline, instead of 152mm baseline, which makes Kutuzov an exceptionally poor smoke firing ship, despite 152mm guns.

It is, in fact, so heavily nerfed in smoke, that Baltimore, a ship with 203mm guns, is stealthier when firing in smoke. Heck, even the Zao is stealthier at smoke firing than Kutuzov is.

If there is a rule for calculating this penalty, why Kutuzov should be the exception? I bought this ship because of its ability to fire from Smoke. Could every Kutuzov owner make a comment in order to put pressure on WG to at least make its penalty equal to Chapayev?

Edited by demeflac
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It’s to balance the ship. Although I personally think the chappy is better because of radar, the truth is that the Kutuzov does overperform compared to her tier viii cruiser counterparts. 

 

As for decreasing the smoke firing range, I doubt that will ever happen considering they nerfed it to this level in the first place.

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2 minutes ago, Gavroche_ said:

It’s to balance the ship. Although I personally think the chappy is better because of radar, the truth is that the Kutuzov does overperform compared to her tier viii cruiser counterparts. 

 

As for decreasing the smoke firing range, I doubt that will ever happen considering they nerfed it to this level in the first place.

I doubt It still overperform Chapayev. Anywau, if there is a rule to calculate the penalty It should apply to every ship.

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that text looks familiar :thonk:

I think it's because WG doesn't want it to have any DD fighting capabilities, while retaining BB farming capabilities.

Kutuzov was bad at fighting DDs before its smoke firing nerf, but now it absolutely blows at it.

The smoke firing penalty is pretty arbitrary

Edited by MrDeaf

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10 minutes ago, demeflac said:

Kutuzov's smoke firing penalty is using 203mm baseline, instead of 152mm baseline, which makes Kutuzov an exceptionally poor smoke firing ship, despite 152mm guns.

It is, in fact, so heavily nerfed in smoke, that Baltimore, a ship with 203mm guns, is stealthier when firing in smoke. Heck, even the Zao is stealthier at smoke firing than Kutuzov is.

If there is a rule for calculating this penalty, why Kutuzov should be the exception? I bought this ship because of its ability to fire from Smoke. Could every Kutuzov owner make a comment in order to put pressure on WG to at least make its penalty equal to Chapayev?

If gun calibre was the real determinant, then all UK CLs from Emerald to Mino would have the same smoke firing detection range.  They dont.  So, your statement is based on a false premise.  

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Kutuzov has excellent range and accurate, flat ballistics.  This makes her excel at long range HE spamming.  Because of her long range accuracy she can still punish destroyers at extended ranges, she just needs someone to spot for her.  I would say she was grossly over-performing with the previous detection when firing from smoke, so WG felt the need to nerf it.  Some players complain it neutered her...but that just isn't the case.  I can still rack up heavy damage totals with Kutuzov.  She is still a monster.

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Kutuzov has garbage concealment tho.

 

Gun caliber play a part but the ship concealment seems to be affected as well.

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5 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

If gun calibre was the real determinant, then all UK CLs from Emerald to Mino would have the same smoke firing detection range.  They dont.  So, your statement is based on a false premise.  

So, what is the rule to calculate Smoke firing penalty then?

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7 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

If gun calibre was the real determinant, then all UK CLs from Emerald to Mino would have the same smoke firing detection range.  They dont.  So, your statement is based on a false premise.  

No, it's definitely gun size related and then some arbitrary decision on top.

Because the 150mm equipped DDs have extremely poor smoke firing concealment when compared to more potent ships that just shoot their smaller guns a lot faster

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When they introduced the smoke firing penalty i remember they said it was related to gun calliber, gun range and concealment of the ship.

 

If this is true, this would explain why some ships have better smoke firing range. Baltimore for example, while has 203mm guns has lower range and better concealment, so the smoke penalty would be better.

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11 minutes ago, demeflac said:

So, what is the rule to calculate Smoke firing penalty then?

I dont know for sure, but it seems to be related to the base detection range of the ships.  

For instance, Belfast has a smaller smoke firing detection range than Fiji or Edinburgh, but it has the same gun calibre and same gun turrets.  

 

Edit: @Xlap might be onto something there, particularly the gun range as an additional variable. 

Edited by UltimateNewbie

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11 minutes ago, desmo_2 said:

Kutuzov has excellent range and accurate, flat ballistics.  This makes her excel at long range HE spamming.  Because of her long range accuracy she can still punish destroyers at extended ranges, she just needs someone to spot for her.  I would say she was grossly over-performing with the previous detection when firing from smoke, so WG felt the need to nerf it.  Some players complain it neutered her...but that just isn't the case.  I can still rack up heavy damage totals with Kutuzov.  She is still a monster.

Ditto. I never notice the nerf because anything inside that detect range is in range of Kooter torps. I played numerous games after the nerf and nobody was ever stupid enough to get in my smoke detect range. Who wants to get up close and personal with a kooter?

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Kutuzov has smoke, 19km gun range, RU CL shell flight characteristics and high velocity.

 

Meanwhile, you can bake a cake after you fire Cleveland's shells and be done before the shells land at a max range of 15.62km.

 

Not only does Kutuzov's gunnery support long range spam very well, she has quite superior range over her fellow Tier VIII Cruisers.  The next closest in range is Adm.Hipper with 17.69km.  Atago, Mogami, Cleveland, Baltimore are sitting at 15-16km.

 

The 19km gun range on Kutuzov is exceptional as a CL because there is no other CL in the game with 18km+ right out of the box.  WAAAYYYYYyyyy back in the day when AFT & BFT buffed 155mm or smaller guns, we had more CLs that could reach as far or almost as far as Kutuzov.  Tier V Konigsberg in those days could reach 19km.  When the nerf happened, all other CLs lost that long ranged capability.  Except Kutuzov.  When the AFT / BFT Nerf happened, Kutuzov was specifically left to be able to reach out at 19km.  Every other CL took it in the nuts.

 

And you STILL got smoke.

And good AA.

And Torps.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

Not only does Kutuzov's gunnery support long range spam very well, she has quite superior range over her fellow Tier VIII Cruisers.  The next closest in range is Chrarles Martel with 17.58km.  Atago, Mogami, Cleveland, Baltimore are sitting at 15-16km.

 

Prinz Eugen has 17.5km range too. I don't know for Hipper tho but I guess it's the same 

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8 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Ditto. I never notice the nerf because anything inside that detect range is in range of Kooter torps. I played numerous games after the nerf and nobody was ever stupid enough to get in my smoke detect range. Who wants to get up close and personal with a kooter?

Any DD other than Khaba. Once spotted every Guy and his mate Will make u priority target.

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Because that $hit is the Devil incarnate, that's why.  No other ship, not the Kami, not the Grem, not even the Nikolai can induce such rage and anger as the Kutuzov, with it's OP range-spamming fire hoses, ability to remain hidden, and AA that would make USN CCs jealous.  You will NEVER convince me otherwise.

Edited by Airglide2
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3 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

Prinz Eugen has 17.5km range too. I don't know for Hipper tho but I guess it's the same 

Admiral Hipper has 17.69km.  I'll have to tweak my post.

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The 19km gun range on Kutuzov is exceptional as a CL because there is no other CL in the game with 18km+ right out of the box.

Doesn't hurt that Kutuzov (and Irian for Pan Asian, which they're working on) are Sverdlovs, which are 1950s technology.  Oldest of them was completed in Dec 1951.  

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2 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

Doesn't hurt that Kutuzov (and Irian for Pan Asian, which they're working on) are Sverdlovs, which are 1950s technology.  Oldest of them was completed in Dec 1951.  

And sitting in Tier VIII, where there are ships there from the 1930s.

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11 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The 19km gun range on Kutuzov is exceptional as a CL because there is no other CL in the game with 18km+ right out of the box.  WAAAYYYYYyyyy back in the day when AFT & BFT buffed 155mm or smaller guns, we had more CLs that could reach as far or almost as far as Kutuzov.  Tier V Konigsberg in those days could reach 19km.  When the nerf happened, all other CLs lost that long ranged capability.  Except Kutuzov.  When the AFT / BFT Nerf happened, Kutuzov was specifically left to be able to reach out at 19km.  Every other CL took it in the nuts.

 

Not quite.

Kutuzov's max range prior to the AFT/BFT nerf was shorter than it is now. When the AFT/BFT nerf happened, Kutuzov got AFT baked in to increase her range, while everyone else lost the ability to use AFT at all. I found that (at the time) rather hilarious, as I hadn't ground enough captain XP to get AFT on her, so I got a range extension when the nerf happened. (That said, I don't think I've played Cleveland even one time since the nerf, though, which made me rather sad.)

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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

And sitting in Tier VIII, where there are ships there from the 1930s.

Yeah.  I'm very familiar with the Sverdlov class cruisers from naval sims like Harpoon and CMANO, because they both do a lot of cold war scenarios.  Of course there are Clevelands and Baltimores around into the 70s as well, but they're CLGs/CGs, with one end's turrets removed for launch rails and a missile magazine.

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The USN 203mm CAs all have a longer smoke firing penalty than other 203mm guns cause reasons.

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30 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

Because that $hit is the Devil incarnate, that's why.  No other ship, not the Kami, not the Grem, not even the Nikolai can induce such rage and anger as the Kutuzov, with it's OP range-spamming fire hoses and ability to remain hidden.  You will NEVER convince me otherwise.

 I beg to differ. Kutuzov can def induce rage in her victims but simply looking through the past month or so of forum posts will show several ships mentioned far more. Belfast, Kita, Haru, and Wooster spring immediately to mind. 

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Just now, Ares1967 said:

 I beg to differ. Kutuzov can def induce rage in her victims but simply looking through the past month or so of forum posts will show several ships mentioned far more. Belfast, Kita, Haru, and Wooster spring immediately to mind. 

Yeah and none of them have as long a history as Kutuzov.  Kita and Haru have more than once been complained about from the even the CCs that it's just to overpowered.  It's just WG decision to keep them that way because sales.  Wooster same junk, but it has the penalty of bankrupting players.  Belfast I think was overhyped.  Once or twice have I came across a Belfast player (since it's release) where they gave me a run for my money, but that's it.  It doesn't have the range to scare me, nor the armor.

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4 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

Yeah and none of them have as long a history as Kutuzov.  Kita and Haru have more than once been complained about from the even the CCs that it's just to overpowered.  It's just WG decision to keep them that way because sales.  Wooster same junk, but it has the penalty of bankrupting players.  Belfast I think was overhyped.  Once or twice have I came across a Belfast player (since it's release) where they gave me a run for my money, but that's it.  It doesn't have the range to scare me, nor the armor.

You were talking about inducing rage, not how long a ship has been in the game, how much it cost to play, or your personal experience fighting a ship.

 Kutuzov induces rage in mainly BB players because it can hit them from stupid ranges with very accurate guns, setting fire after fire. Cruiser and DD players dont have nearly the issue with it.

 Belfast can, and often does when I'm playing it, incite enough salt to keep Morton supplied for a year. I get it players of all three groups. 

 The Kita, Haru, and Wooster, are also rage inducing to players of all three classes. 

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