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Bill_Halsey

How did WG came up with the Nation Naval Characteristics?

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Some of the naval characteristics makes sense from an historical perspective. Others don't.

 

 IJN and torps - makes sense. yet their damage control wasn't stellar, from at least the Taiho's account.

KM BB's with their super secondaries and wonky dispersion. Really? We're talking Zeiss optics here. The super secondaries should had gone to the USN T8's  and up with their 5 inch secondaries. I grant you the gave the Massachussttes that, but no where else. Should have given the KM BB's a sigma as good as the Yamato. Turtle back armor was at least historical.

British BB fire starter and super heal - how did they come up with that? I don't remember off hand nay historical accounts to justify it.

USN BB's -  the only thing of the top of my head is a longer duration damage control consumable

VMF - Well, the suspicion that what ever BB line they come up with is going to be OP. why? One is Kutuzov. The other is Stalingrad.

Yes, I know it's game balance. But at least pull it from a historical perspective.

On that note, Merry Xmas!

 

Edited by Bill_Halsey
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While some things like the survivability of German BC/BB's and the US's heavy investment in AA and damage control had some basis in reality "National" flavor is mostly pulled out out thin air and I feel was a mistake.

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USN got a more appropriate flavor recently by giving tier 5-9 tech tree BBs the improved Colorado heal, at least. British DDs getting hydro specifically tailored to detect torpedoes also makes sense, given the circumstances of the Battle for the Atlantic.

They still completely screwed up British battleships, though. I honestly want them to redo the tree.

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Flavors change with time.  You would have one flavor before naval aviation took center stage, you will have different flavor after.

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1 minute ago, SeraphicRadiance said:

USN got a more appropriate flavor recently by giving tier 5-9 tech tree BBs the improved Colorado heal, at least. British DDs getting hydro specifically tailored to detect torpedoes also makes sense, given the circumstances of the Battle for the Atlantic.

They still completely screwed up British battleships, though. I honestly want them to redo the tree.

When every tree and line "needs" a "gimmick", the gimmicks run out and then you're left with cartoon nonsense.

 

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If you know it's game balance, then you should also know that means historical accuracy kinda doesn't mean a whole lot. However, you then ask for it.

 

I mean, it's a game, man, an arcade game. Just enjoy it for what it is and don't overthink it.  :  )

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2 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

When every tree and line "needs" a "gimmick", the gimmicks run out and then you're left with cartoon nonsense.

 

Pretty much. Almost all of the gimmicks have no basis for existing, or actively prove detrimental to enjoyment of the ships (e.g. British battleships). And sooner or later, you're going to run out of gimmicks.

I've come to terms with this in order to provide distinguishing playstyles to the ships for an arcade game, but really I'm just complaining about how much I despise the British battleship gimmick.

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7 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

When every tree and line "needs" a "gimmick", the gimmicks run out and then you're left with cartoon nonsense.

 

We disagree on a lot of things but in this we agree 100%.

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1 hour ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Some of the naval characteristics makes sense from an historical perspective. Others don't.

 

 IJN and torps - makes sense. yet their damage control wasn't stellar, from at least the Taiho's account.

KM BB's with their super secondaries and wonky dispersion. Really? We're talking Zeiss optics here. The super secondaries should had gone to the USN T8's  and up with their 5 inch secondaries. I grant you the gave the Massachussttes that, but no where else. Should have given the KM BB's a sigma as good as the Yamato. Turtle back armor was at least historical.

British BB fire starter and super heal - how did they come up with that? I don't remember off hand nay historical accounts to justify it.

USN BB's -  the only thing of the top of my head is a longer duration damage control consumable

VMF - Well, the suspicion that what ever BB line they come up with is going to be OP. why? One is Kutuzov. The other is Stalingrad.

Yes, I know it's game balance. But at least pull it from a historical perspective.

On that note, Merry Xmas!

 

RN was really gimmicky because they were the pioneers of naval warfare. British HE was extremely cancer even irl iirc. Though personally, I feel like that they should just redo the whole RN BB line because that fact alone isn't enough to turn them into HE spamming super heal ships. I'd much rather see the RN BBs wielding guns similar to the performance of Warspite (in their respective tier obviously). 

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Imagine with Warcraft with only warriors, hunters and rogues.  Boring.  Call them gimmicks if you want or point out all the historic inaccuracies, this game would be pretty lame if, at any given tier, every ship of the same class were the same in all but physical appearance.  And if historically accurate,  no one would play anything but RN and German ships at low tiers and US ships at high tier.

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2 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

KM BB's with their super secondaries and wonky dispersion. Really? We're talking Zeiss optics here. The super secondaries should had gone to the USN T8's  and up with their 5 inch secondaries. I grant you the gave the Massachussttes that, but no where else. Should have given the KM BB's a sigma as good as the Yamato. Turtle back armor was at least historical.

Because of the design of German capital ships, at least around WW2 - You see it in Bismarck, Scharn, and even GZ the ships were built around defending against DD's, maybe cruisers, and raiding convoy's. Given that, and that these were supposed to be close in brawlers back when it was more viable, THAT is why they have the best secondaries, as well as the fact they have a higher caliber that can do real damage, unlike USN in most cases (the 15 cm guns). 

2 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

USN BB's -  the only thing of the top of my head is a longer duration damage control consumable

AA - what they don't get in stellar anti-ship abilities, which is fair as the 127 mm would yes, be good against DD's but less useful vs most larger ships, the 5'/38 was an excellent A gun, why they have some of the most nightmarish long range AA in-game, combined with the 40 mm bofors and all the AA range upgrades, they can form a 4x4 no fly zone on a 10x10 map. Which is pulled from particularly late war ability to deal with planes, namely Japan's.

2 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

IJN and torps - makes sense. yet their damage control wasn't stellar, from at least the Taiho's account.

Their damage control was about average, some of the issues were ship design and/or just bad luck. Such as Midway when they happen to get hit with their cap drawn off and planes fueled and loading - which did not help as they lost a lot of experienced men in that one day alone. IJN also has stealth, given some ships lower profiles as is, and that they did do a decent job of sneaking ships about the Pacific at times. 

2 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

British BB fire starter and super heal - how did they come up with that? I don't remember off hand nay historical accounts to justify it.

The super heal I think is balance for the thin armour and all of the higher tier ships, the fire starting however, as well as the sort of weird AP, is I believe actually due to the filling of shells and shell types possibly. They used a different filler than the other navies. 

 

Even handled wrong, CV's have this as well for the moment - with USN and it's better fighters and endurance as well as AA protection, and effective DB's and Japan with it's more fragile but numerous planes and reliant on TB's and slightly different tactics. It should have been equal fighters but USN's have better endurance, and IJN's better damage, with USN HE DB's having beter accuracy than they do now and IJN keeping it's TB fix, with the ships having their respective AA and Stealth bits as they have now. Part of why I'm against the rework is that it removes any real difference the nation has and throws history out the window with rocket armed A5M's and I forget the tier 3-4 USN plane that has rockets that never did, yet neither tier 4 CV has TB's and all sorts of other things that make me cringe.

 

They do actually take history and intended designs/roles into account. Just have to know where to look sometimes.

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Indeed.  The obsession with "national flavor" is even part of what doomed the old CVs.  So much of the trouble came from the different squadron sizes and numbers.

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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I wish the ones they gave each country fit. Germans with horrible guns? British Flame throwers?

My guess is they chose each one with a spin of the empty vodka bottle.

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1 hour ago, FrodoFraggin said:

Imagine with Warcraft with only warriors, hunters and rogues.  Boring.  Call them gimmicks if you want or point out all the historic inaccuracies, this game would be pretty lame if, at any given tier, every ship of the same class were the same in all but physical appearance.  And if historically accurate,  no one would play anything but RN and German ships at low tiers and US ships at high tier.

There are lots of differences without going for artificial national flavor. The US was exceptionally adept at damage control particularly fire fighting, witness the ships we saved that by all rights should have gone down. The Japanese were exceptionally adept at night fighting and if they had put in a proper night mode that would have been their niche. The Germans built exceptionally survivable ships but how to factor what was really a strategic and not a tactical factor so really can't be included in a tactical game however, the German gunnery was exceptionally accurate. You can look at any country and see what they excelled at and use that instead of some cartoonish things like RN BB's effectively creating a new ship when they hit repair.

 

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13 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

There are lots of differences without going for artificial national flavor. The US was exceptionally adept at damage control particularly fire fighting, witness the ships we saved that by all rights should have gone down. The Japanese were exceptionally adept at night fighting and if they had put in a proper night mode that would have been their niche. The Germans built exceptionally survivable ships but how to factor what was really a strategic and not a tactical factor so really can't be included in a tactical game however, the German gunnery was exceptionally accurate. You can look at any country and see what they excelled at and use that instead of some cartoonish things like RN BB's effectively creating a new ship when they hit repair.

 

Yeah, WG's "historical accuracy" is hilarious really. It sounds good as a sound bite but that's all it is. This is more akin to a naval arcade game than a simulator.

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1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

AA - what they don't get in stellar anti-ship abilities, which is fair as the 127 mm would yes, be good against DD's but less useful vs most larger ships, the 5'/38 was an excellent A gun, why they have some of the most nightmarish long range AA in-game, combined with the 40 mm bofors and all the AA range upgrades, they can form a 4x4 no fly zone on a 10x10 map. Which is pulled from particularly late war ability to deal with planes, namely Japan's.

Tell that to IJN Hiei when when she got pounded by USS Laffey's 5 inchers at 20 ft range at guadalcanl

 

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Just now, xalmgrey said:

Yeah, WG's "historical accuracy" is hilarious really. It sounds good as a sound bite but that's all it is. This is more akin to a naval arcade game than a simulator.

This is an arcade game but having every country having a county flavor gets out of hand and cartoonish even for a historically based arcade game.

1 minute ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Tell that to IJN Hiei when when she got pounded by USS Laffey's 5 inchers at 20 ft range at guadalcanl

 

Actually it was farther than that and that was far more than just the Laffey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

This is an arcade game but having every country having a county flavor gets out of hand and cartoonish even for a historically based arcade game.

Actually it was farther than that and that was far more than just the Laffey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Leaving space for additions later? Like a book amount? :cap_haloween:

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Just now, xalmgrey said:

Leaving space for additions later? Like a book amount? :cap_haloween:

No clue how I accomplished that but it might have happened when the cat hopped up on the desk and I forgot to get rid of the extra spaces. :Smile_facepalm: I adopted him earlier this month and while he was always friendly has lately become super friendly.

9528NOG.jpg

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32 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

No clue how I accomplished that but it might have happened when the cat hopped up on the desk and I forgot to get rid of the extra spaces. :Smile_facepalm: I adopted him earlier this month and while he was always friendly has lately become super friendly.

9528NOG.jpg

Heh aww. I've got a rescue cat as well. They are very grateful. You can tell.

IMG_0887.JPG

Edited by xalmgrey
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2 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

Heh aww. I've got a rescue cat as well. They are very grateful. You can tell.

This was a personal rescue because a long time friend was unable to stay in her house do to medical reason. While she wants him back I don't think she will be able to return home as she needs oxygen and he house is an over 100 year old US Steel row house and the stairs are like a cliff which would not meet code if building now. Her daughter who I love as if she was my own is trying to find assisted living for her but sadly her mother's old spark is just not there.

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Just now, BrushWolf said:

This was a personal rescue because a long time friend was unable to stay in her house do to medical reason. While she wants him back I don't think she will be able to return home as she needs oxygen and he house is an over 100 year old US Steel row house and the stairs are like a cliff which would not meet code if building now. Her daughter who I love as if she was my own is trying to find assisted living for her but sadly her mother's old spark is just not there.

That's nice of you to take the kitty in. Black cats have a harder time getting adopted than most other cats as well so its good you took him in.

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