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Billy2Hawks

Why is competitive play, not really competitive?

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I am seriously trying to figure this out. I would say less than 25% of my games that involve PvP are actually competitive or challenging.

Most of the time it is a wipe one way or the other, and you know who is likely going to win about 5 - 7 minutes into the match.

It seems that the actual unicorn of games is that nail biter that takes you down to the end, or hell, is close enough to keep the outcome in question past 10 minutes of game time.

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IMO ranked is like herding a bunch of cats around that think they're good at the game.

The real competition, to me, is in clan wars.

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7 minutes ago, J30_Reinhardt said:

IMO ranked is like herding a bunch of cats around that think they're good at the game.

The real competition, to me, is in clan wars.

I guess that leads into the other question I have about this game is: Why does a team oriented game not encourage or reward team play? :(

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8 minutes ago, J30_Reinhardt said:

IMO ranked is like herding a bunch of cats around that think they're good at the game.

The real competition, to me, is in clan wars.

They can go just as bad as random.

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46 minutes ago, Billy2Hawks said:

I am seriously trying to figure this out. I would say less than 25% of my games that involve PvP are actually competitive or challenging.

Most of the time it is a wipe one way or the other, and you know who is likely going to win about 5 - 7 minutes into the match.

It seems that the actual unicorn of games is that nail biter that takes you down to the end, or hell, is close enough to keep the outcome in question past 10 minutes of game time.

I don't know why people expect much from a game with an average player age of 42.....

Most of the old folks are passing time, and because of who is attracted to the game, it will never be competitive....

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9 minutes ago, awiggin said:

I don't know why people expect much from a game with an average player age of 42.....

Most of the old folks are passing time, and because of who is attracted to the game, it will never be competitive....

Specially without a skill based MM. Without that there's no way for it to even get there.

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39 minutes ago, J30_Reinhardt said:

IMO ranked is like herding a bunch of cats around that think they're good at the game.

The real competition, to me, is in clan wars.

pfft, real competition is with my own team mates in random battles to see which us can sink the most ships and deal the most dmg. :Smile-_tongue:

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Random games aren’t competitive.  They are causal.  If you want competitive gameplay join a clan and do clan wars.  

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The real answer is because the playerbase is not competitive. There is not much incentive to care or learn, even in ranked. The type of people that would be interested in WoWS don't really care for any nuances in the gameplay. CVs, which are an entire class of ships that are pretty much balanced by nuance, are so poorly regarded by the majority of the playerbase that their entire gameplay is being scrapped and being remade to not be nuanced. Even out the small playerbase of current CVs, many of them don't really care to learn the mechanics and would rather box their planes all together and watch what happens when you click on a ship. 

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In truth, the real-real answer is that there's too damned many game modes to play.

With a smallish community it doesn't need to/shouldnt be segmented so damned much between co-op, ranked, clans, randoms, and arms race.

I did warn them of this, but haven't really gotten on the soapbox about it since I returned.

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Ranked battles are just another random PvP mode; why would you expect them to be competitive in the sense that clan battles are?

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8 hours ago, awiggin said:

I don't know why people expect much from a game with an average player age of 42.....

Most of the old folks are passing time, and because of who is attracted to the game, it will never be competitive....

Hey, once you're past a certain age... you realize the true meaning of "it's a game".

 

 

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8 hours ago, Billy2Hawks said:

I guess that leads into the other question I have about this game is: Why does a team oriented game not encourage or reward team play? :(

Clan battles? Operations? Divisioning?

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8 hours ago, LoveBote said:

pfft, real competition is with my own team mates in random battles to see which us can sink the most ships and deal the most dmg. :Smile-_tongue:

The real enemy if your own teammates and prevent them from throwing LOL or stop suiciding :Smile_izmena:

Edited by lungiwear

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10 hours ago, Billy2Hawks said:

I am seriously trying to figure this out. I would say less than 25% of my games that involve PvP are actually competitive or challenging.

Most of the time it is a wipe one way or the other, and you know who is likely going to win about 5 - 7 minutes into the match.

It seems that the actual unicorn of games is that nail biter that takes you down to the end, or hell, is close enough to keep the outcome in question past 10 minutes of game time.

This is a simple answer:  because "skill" isn't in the algorithm that creates matches.....  Luck is the only variable in the current MM.  And, as the population shrinks, the greater the variation becomes as the skill base loses the 66% of the average payers that make the MM work at all.......  They leave first.  Then you have new players against veteran WoWs players and those game all become stomps of some sort.....

If we had a Combat Effectiveness (CE) system in place, the ELO algorithm then has an individual CE for every match you want to play; not matter the ship, the map or the Captain you chose........  Every decision you make is part of your CE rating..........every decision in every mode......not just Randoms, Ranked or clan battles.....   Only training room is excepted.... We need a place to test and try before we mess with CE.....

If you want 'real competition", you need "real data" to create an environment where competition "can take place" and that doesn't guarantee it will !!!  Good players can and do make bad decisions and poor players can and do "step up" and do great things !!!  And, the RNG GoD has a say in everything we do so................nothing is perfect but, what we have isn't anywhere close to decent match making.....not even remotely adequate.

To be honest, after advising new game creators experimenting with the CE system, the new games that are being tinkered with "are something else" and CE, isn't for the meek...........because it is "all about what your skills produce" and those numbers can and are sometimes hard to take............There is no hiding in teams to strengthen your stats and if CE is publicly shown, it can lend to "issues" in the meritocracies games become.......what if you aren't the Hero you claim to be.....or, you are a real killer and your "team mates" are all want-a-be's.....

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9 hours ago, awiggin said:

I don't know why people expect much from a game with an average player age of 42.....

Most of the old folks are passing time, and because of who is attracted to the game, it will never be competitive....

And yet. People swear it’s the kids that screw up games on weekends. 

It is a game. And you should try to win, since we’re keeping score. But if you’re worried about anything other than doing your best personally and having fun, you will always be frustrated and disappointed. 

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11 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

This is a simple answer:  because "skill" isn't in the algorithm that creates matches.....  Luck is the only variable in the current MM.  And, as the population shrinks, the greater the variation becomes as the skill base loses the 66% of the average payers that make the MM work at all.......  They leave first.  Then you have new players against veteran WoWs players and those game all become stomps of some sort.....

If we had a Combat Effectiveness (CE) system in place, the ELO algorithm then has an individual CE for every match you want to play; not matter the ship, the map or the Captain you chose........  Every decision you make is part of your CE rating..........every decision in every mode......not just Randoms, Ranked or clan battles.....   Only training room is excepted.... We need a place to test and try before we mess with CE.....

If you want 'real competition", you need "real data" to create an environment where competition "can take place" and that doesn't guarantee it will !!!  Good players can and do make bad decisions and poor players can and do "step up" and do great things !!!  And, the RNG GoD has a say in everything we do so................nothing is perfect but, what we have isn't anywhere close to decent match making.....not even remotely adequate.

To be honest, after advising new game creators experimenting with the CE system, the new games that are being tinkered with "are something else" and CE, isn't for the meek...........because it is "all about what your skills produce" and those numbers can and are sometimes hard to take............There is no hiding in teams to strengthen your stats and if CE is publicly shown, it can lend to "issues" in the meritocracies games become.......what if you aren't the Hero you claim to be.....or, you are a real killer and your "team mates" are all want-a-be's.....

Case in point...

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4 minutes ago, Thornir said:

And yet. People swear it’s the kids that screw up games on weekends. 

It is a game. And you should try to win, since we’re keeping score. But if you’re worried about anything other than doing your best personally and having fun, you will always be frustrated and disappointed. 

Yep.....  You should see the e-Sports GoD's test a CE driven prototype........  Talk about emotional meltdowns.......  The biggest issue I've lectured about is when the "intuitive or Knowledge based self learning systems" take away the gamers ability to "see linear thought processes that create exploits..."  In other words, you can't figure out what the game will do after you were just killed for the um-teenth time......because, each pass is different and learns from the previous pass.....and, a few of the prototypes, actually "change the game's intent" to help you "learn new skills" to advance....they can "back track" you till you master basic skills......  The e-Sports crew go crazy when they can't "see a simple solution" their intuition and experiences have always provided a simple and reasonably accurate choice....   

Toffler said it best:  "if technology challenges culture faster than culture can adapt, bad things happen !"  CE is smart and challenges game culture and a lot of people can't take that........

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Why is competitive play not really competitive?

Because this is inherently not a competitive game.

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Because this game doesnt have any kind of skill based MM. So you often see teams with too many good players while the other has too many bad players. 

 

Ranked was supposed to be competitive, but the current format is terrible. Very limited and doesnt stop bad players from getting high ranks. 

 

So CW are the only competitive mode. But CW are very limited.

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I always think of this when someone mentions scientific laws and theories.

Like this player base is taking breaks from their lectures in between matches :Smile_veryhappy:

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This is what typically happens.

1-2 people screw up early on and get rekt.

Now it's 10 vs 12 and you're 3 minutes into the match.

Congrats.  Now the Snowball Effect is going.  Good luck in stopping it from rushing down the mountain without crushing you.

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TL/DR   Its a design choice

 

In a 12 v 12 player game where each 12 is randomly drawn, the amount of variables involved in game play is huge.  Thus people can succeed even when playing against better players  - that success keeps people coming back.  In this game, being competitive is about being involved in the moment you are experiencing.  This is actually a design choice to create demand for items while avoiding the arms races that kill most mobile MMORPG's.  

Drop the same 12 people each game into the same environment, all with the same gear each time, and competition begins to occur.  That's e-gaming.  That breeds a race to pay the most. IF that was the only revenue stream, that would not have much long term viability.

I get why WG is interested in pushing clan wars - its an investment.  But, if WG focused on clan wars, they'd slowly strangle the game.  

 

Eventually WG is going to kill the balance between game styles that so far is keeping this game ticking over -  all game companies eventually make a mistake that does that.  But, in the meantime,  competition is judged on an individual basis.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Anonymous50

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