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Sledgehammer427

Theorycrafting the upcoming USSR BB Line

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UPDATED 1/25/19 FOR NEW INFORMATION ON DEVBLOG
TIERS 3-7 HERE
TIERS 8-10 AND LENIN HERE


Soviet Battleships. It's been stated on the WG fest post that they will have fat HP pools and if memory serves me right decent armor. I tend to save my theorybuilding until after the initial stats appear but having looked into Russian and Soviet naval history as much as I have, and having played this game for so long, I think I have an idea in place that I want to put out there, preemptively. 

I think that USSR BBs will be a hybrid of German-Japanese-American styles. Fat HP and armor is a german trait, but I think that most of them will be slow and ponderous until the higher tiers, save for the Izmail class battlecruiser projected to be in Tier 6. I know this next statement will gather some salt, but I think they will have slightly above-average gunnery with mediocre reloads and shell flight times, which insofar is a blend between low-mid tier American and overall more in the IJN territory. The funny part of this is that its actually pretty accurate to the way the Russians did their battleship thing in WWI. "During her engagement with the German/Turkish battlecruiser Goeben/Yavuz on 8 January 1916, Imperatritsa Maria, firing into the sun at a range of about 20,000 meters, landed her first three salvos at 500, 100 and 50 meters short of the Turkish ship.....On 4 April 1916, Imperatritsa Maria's sister-ship Ekaterina II straddled and then knocked the stem off the German/Turkish light cruiser Breslau/Midilli at about 21,000 meters." -Navweaps
 

Now the bigger problem here is that in the timeframe of WWII and the years leading up to it, Russian Naval tech kind of stagnated. This is mostly due to the 1921 Kronshtadt rebellions where Russian sailors took up arms against the fledgling Bolshevik government. While new designs were continuously drawn up and considered, the 1921 rebellions left a very sour taste in every soviet leaders mouth until the end years of WWII where Stalin noticed the advantages of a serious blue-water fleet and pushed to improve the Soviet Navies standing in the world into the beginning of the cold war, to no avail. When he passed, times had a-changed and brought about more missile ships, patrol craft, and cruisers tended to fill the niche of capital ships in the Soviet VMF. This, along with Russia's involvement in WWII being relegated more to a land war, meant that the USSR was where naval architect's careers went to die, most importantly, the dreamers who wanted to build battleships. 

History lesson over, lets look tier by tier at the projected VMF BB line. 
-Tier III - Knyaz Suvorov (blueprint)
Tier3.thumb.jpg.2e2cc23b1c789d8ab4251256b0b19eb8.jpg

Hit points — 37900. Plating — 16 mm.
Main battery — 5x2 305 mm. Firing range — 14.6 km.
Maximum HE shell damage — 4500. Chance to cause fire — 33%. Maximum AP shell damage — 8600.
Reload time — 32.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 56.2 s. Maximum dispersion — 198 м.
HE initial velocity — 762 m/s. AP initial velocity — 762 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.
Maximum speed — 22 kt. Turning circle radius — 650 m. Rudder shift time — 9.7 s. Surface detectability — 11.7 km. Air detectability — 9.4 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 9.0 km.


Never built but very typical of Pre-WWI designs looking oddly like a Kaiser going backwards with her A-B-P-Q-X turret setup, with AB turrets superfiring, PQ staggered off-centerline, and X in the after third looking quite lonely. I don't forsee this causing any real headaches. Its a tier 3, grinders will play 4 games in it and move on and old hands will free XP past it.

-Tier IV - Gangut (Real Steel) 
tier4.thumb.jpg.656679c5eaf3241931c07c359a9949b2.jpg
Hit points — 40500. Plating — 19 mm.Main battery — 4x3 305 mm. Firing range — 15.5 km.Maximum HE shell damage — 4500. Chance to cause fire — 33%. Maximum AP shell damage — 8600.Reload time — 32.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 56.2 s. Maximum dispersion — 209 м.HE initial velocity — 762 m/s. AP initial velocity — 762 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.Maximum speed — 23 kt. Turning circle radius — 660 m. Rudder shift time — 10.2 s. Surface detectability — 10.6 km. Air detectability — 9.6 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 8.3 km.


It (EDIT: still) remains to be seen if Gangut will get a Soviet-era upgrade package to make her look more like herself (after a lobotomy and some plastic surgery) at tier 5 as Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya. My guess is that Gangut will end up with Sevastopol's upgrade kit, as this version retains more secondaries and doesn't have as much consequential AA as Okt. Rev. does, keeping it in line with German battleships at the same tier. If OktRev is any indication of this ship's performance, it will be fun for some but ultimately forgettable, but at tier 4 with its current MM, it may be a hidden gem.

-Tier V - Pyotr Velikiy - (blueprint)
Tier5.thumb.jpg.64a08705dbde34adc6e3b1f55a3f964b.jpg

Hit points — 51100. Plating — 19 mm.
Main battery — 4x2 356 mm. Firing range — 16.7 km.
Maximum HE shell damage — 5200. Chance to cause fire — 38%. Maximum AP shell damage — 10500.
Reload time — 30.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 45.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 223 м.
HE initial velocity — 732 m/s. AP initial velocity — 732 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.
Maximum speed — 30 kt. Turning circle radius — 800 m. Rudder shift time — 11.5 s. Surface detectability — 13.7 km. Air detectability — 11.5 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 11.9 km

Project 707. An interesting design, its a battlecruiser that was co-designed by some German fellow. It's not going to be blindingly fast (Edit: It's actually pretty quick apparently), but the turret placement looks familiar. I'm sensing some Mackensen/Tiger/Kongou vibes here. The WIP hull shows a lot of secondaries and a healthy smattering of AA that will explode vigorously if it gets hit with HE, but a massivecastle-esque superstructure that is going to be impossible to shoot around (and, chances are, will also vigorously explode when hit with HE.) You will have to expose a lot of broadside to get all 8 guns going but, at the very least, you get a full length strip of armor that runs from stem to (I'm guessing) almost stern. I'm judging the firing arcs based on the 30-degree-ish angle the preview pictures are taken at. 

-Tier VI - Izmail - (Real Steel((Kinda)))
Tier6.thumb.jpg.8a76be30464b8f81d6f94c946e71efb1.jpg
Hit points — 55900. Plating — 25 mm.
Main battery — 4x3 356 mm. Firing range — 17.0 km.Maximum HE shell damage — 5200. Chance to cause fire — 38%. Maximum AP shell damage — 10500.
Reload time — 33.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 60.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 228 м.
HE initial velocity — 732 m/s. AP initial velocity — 732 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.Maximum speed — 28 kt. Turning circle radius — 830 m. Rudder shift time — 12.0 s.
Surface detectability — 15.2 km. Air detectability — 12.0 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 13.2 km.


DO YOU LIKE KITING? DO YOU LIKE REAR FACING GUN TURRETS? DO I HAVE SOME GOOD NEWS FOR YOU.
The Borodino/Izmail class battlecruisers were all laid down in 1912. All four. Look at that. Russia tried a thing navally and yet nobody cares.
Really, its a Nikolai with the machinery on the wrong end, but its faster machinery and those are 14" guns in triple turrets. Its going to be faster than Fuso, but probably similarly armored, and if you need to change sides, for the love of god, do it while you're strategically turning away so you can get them on target again quicker. Good news in that regard is that if you can hold a flank and not have to change sides, your firing angles look pretty durn strong, and you'll be able to tank well. Judging by the preview pic, we are looking at an upgraded hull with 4x2 130mm DD mounts, meaning those secondaries may work as DP AA mounts, while having a pretty decent complement of casemate secondary guns too. Overall, I find more AA guns on this ship the longer I look, but I don't think its going to save Izmail from being a dud for most players. Skilled players with lots of game experience will be able to use the ships strengths but on the whole, I don't see this ship being a keeper. 

Tier VII - Sinop - (Blueprint)
Tier7.thumb.jpg.a93fba3f12a667a503f12fc86290986f.jpg
Hit points — 65000. Plating — 25 mm.Main battery — 3x3 406 mm. Firing range — 17.8 km.Maximum HE shell damage — 5850. Chance to cause fire — 41%.
Maximum AP shell damage — 12950.Reload time — 33.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 30.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 237 м.
HE initial velocity — 766 m/s. AP initial velocity — 766 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.Maximum speed — 29 kt. Turning circle radius — 960 m. Rudder shift time — 12.9 s.
Surface detectability — 15.0 km. Air detectability — 12.7 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 14.5 km.


Now this ship got my jimmies to start rustling. LOOK AT THE PROFILE ON THAT PROW OH LAWD
Now we are getting faster, pretty much every BB after this looks like its built for speed. But again, I see a stem-to-stern belt for good tanking. One major thing I see, too, is a boat covering the ideal arc for what I'm guessing is a lone X-turret, meaning once again like Pyotr Velikiy, you will have to show a healthy amount of side to get all 3 turrets going. I can't find any details about the guns from this timeframe and the fact the design is based in 1917 means these are probably going to be 15" german ripoffs on a projected refit in the interwar period. However, on the upside, I see some good AA (I'm holding my thought about the flammability of these mounts though) and more 130mm secondaries that will double as AA mounts. I'm excited about this one. It's no Gneisenau but it may be good at mid to long range engagements where I find the Gneis lacking. 

Tier VIII - Vladivostok - (Blueprint) 
Tier8.thumb.jpg.d6ce645bc2df17b2ef85bc50c3715bf3.jpg

Hit points — 73600. Plating — 32 mm.Main battery — 3x3 406 mm. Firing range — 19.0 km.
Maximum HE shell damage — 5850. Chance to cause fire — 41%. Maximum AP shell damage — 13 100.Reload time — 33.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 30.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 252 м.
HE initial velocity — 793 m/s. AP initial velocity — 793 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.
Maximum speed — 29 kt. Turning circle radius — 950 m. Rudder shift time — 13.7 s. Surface detectability — 15.5 km. Air detectability — 13.9 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 14.9 km


Oh look, its the Aldis-Brand Littorio. At this point, I see this being a Russian North Carolina. I think those are 16" high velocity guns. On the upside, the firing arcs are better but now I see the forward belt stopping just short of the prow, meaning this will be maybe not complete food for Yamatos and Musashis, but perhaps erring towards a more all-or-nothing format instead of the dated all-round protection we've seen thus far. This may be an A-hull, my reasoning is that that is nowhere near enough AA for a Tier 8 ship, but the secondaries, although all aft-facing, look like DP mounts again. It is a sexy looking ship but I fear most people will skip it for the tier 9....

Tier IX - Sovetsky Soyuz - (Real Steel((Kinda Again)))
Tier9.thumb.jpg.93dab910e05a9eddc77b7772eca4e573.jpg

Hit points — 88100. Plating — 32 mm.
Main battery — 3x3 406 mm. Firing range — 19.4 km.
Maximum HE shell damage — 5800. Chance to cause fire — 40%. Maximum AP shell damage — 13250.
Reload time — 33.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 30.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 257 м.
HE initial velocity — 830 m/s. AP initial velocity — 830 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.
Maximum speed — 28 kt. Turning circle radius — 950 m. Rudder shift time — 14.9 s. Surface detectability — 16.7 km. Air detectability — 16.7 km.
Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 16.1 km.

Oh lawd again. My feelings are mixed on S.Soyuz. I see a compact hull, not long and lithe like the Iowa, which is the hamburger-ized version of this design. 16" guns for sure, no idea about velocity (I know there was some data that was mined from a test client but I don't have the data on hand) But I'm sure these guns will have solid pen but dispersion that is left wanting. Armor looks decent for that big thicc outer belt but again, I forsee the transition to all-or-nothing and range being your better ally. Firing arcs look pretty good, but it will be up to rudder shift time to determine if you can tuck your butt in quick enough to brawl or if this ship like most of the other examples in the line will be mid range support. I really want to like this ship and maybe something under the hood will win me over but the longer I look at it, the more I find myself shrugging and hoping the Tier 10 Kreml is worth it. (I wonder if the name will change. Kreml sounds like some kind of lumpy bread that is overcooked in the oven and threatens to break your teeth if you don't soak it in borscht first.) 

Tier X - Kremlin - (Blueprint)
tierxkremlin.thumb.jpeg.a74651d4aa5ad509f85b61d9ef13c506.jpeg

Hit points — 108300. Plating — 32 mm.
Main battery — 3x3 457 mm. Firing range — 20.7 km.
Maximum HE shell damage — 6600. Chance to cause fire — 48%. Maximum AP shell damage — 15 500.
Reload time — 34.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 30.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 274 м.
HE initial velocity — 800 m/s. AP initial velocity — 800 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.
Maximum speed — 30 kt. Turning circle radius — 1090 m. Rudder shift time — 16.3 s. Surface detectability — 17.0 km. Air detectability — 17.4 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 18.1 km.


And now the ship that we were threatened with in the announcement...
Tier VIII - Lenin - (Blueprint)
Lenin8.thumb.jpg.9d592056b5acf7ec1b20764f73d9c2f9.jpg

Hit points — 63200. Plating — 32 mm.
Main battery — 3x3 406 mm. Firing range — 18.4 km.
Maximum HE shell damage — 5850. Chance to cause fire — 41%. Maximum AP shell damage — 13 100.
Reload time — 33.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 30.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 245 м.
HE initial velocity — 793 m/s. AP initial velocity — 793 m/s. Sigma — 1.70.
Maximum speed — 28 kt. Turning circle radius — 840 m. Rudder shift time — 13.5 s. Surface detectability — 16.6 km. Air detectability — 13.8 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 16.1 km.
 

I'm going to call this ship Nel-ski. It's 100% a meme ship, taking the mantle with the likes of Okhotnik and Leningrad. Look at the secondaries. Seriously. It has the front half of a Kirov on BOTH SIDES meaning you have 1.3 Kirovs of 180mm secondary guns on your ship. Follow that up (literally) with 100 or 130mm twin mounts behind that, likely as DP AA guns as well as part of your secondary compliment, and the ability to mount a spotting aircraft or scout fighter (I'm banking on spotter only but I'll take a surprise where I can get it) 
On the downside, I think these secondaries are going to be either totally worthless (because spotter plane) or absolutely insane. I'm banking on worthless but I'm also going to wait and see how slow it is and how good the main battery is before I make a final call on if I'm picking this ship up or not (Spoiler, I am getting it regardless. Meme ship.)

Now, final thoughts on consumables, playstyle, trends and tics I have. 
-Russian Damage Control Party, limited charges?
I thought that OktRev was a really interesting ship for the way you had to play it, meaning judicious use of the DCP because you had a fast recharge and limited use, but you were essentially immune to floods and fires and that was awesome. If the reds didn't focus you into bringing that DCP out multiple times and you played smartly as a mid range death-dealer, you were going to have a good match.  
-Russian guns
(boom, boom, booom, boom. Boom boom boom. BOOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. Boom boom boom.) 
Low tier guns will more than likely have slow velocity on the 12" rifles, then getting amped up to high/medium high velocity by the end of the tree. WG likes to have a steady progression of calibers so I will assume we will see a transition from 14"-15"-16" happening at Tiers 6-7-8. I feel like a lot of people who obsess over gun handling will have their minds made up on continuing the line by the time they finish grinding the tier VI Izmail. I also forsee Izmail being the great decider for people. It will be loved and kept or hated and xp'd past. No in-betweens. The decider will be if Russian ships get to keep their historically good accuracy past the WWI development stage or if the sudden lack of good artillery officers will show in the interwar-WWII timeframe. 
-Secondaries
In the game, these have always been utter, stinking garbage on Russiabotes. Range too short to be comfortable, fire rate too low even with bft, firestarting chances worthless. instead of secondaries, the Russians could have saved weight by keeping crates of alcohol nearby to lob at close destroyers as molotov cocktails, as the range and fire rate is roughly similar. Judging by how well this works on the premiums, though some tree ships look to have fairly comprehensive secondaries, I think they will be for self defense only. Sorry German fanbois.
-Spotter planes
I see a good helping of catapults on these ships. I see the likelihood they will get spotter planes. I don't see why if the trend continues with Russian ships getting really dang good firing ranges. Perhaps the spotters are for cruisers in smoke or if the velocity is highish enough, to dunk on ships behind islands at long-max range. Dispersion will call if I ever use the spotters over fighters if there is a choice to be made. 

My Highlights 
Tier 5 Pyotr Velikiy. Ti-Mac-Kongou is calling me.
Tier 7 Sinop. Sexy Bow profile and brawly looking armor. I'm keeping an eye on this one
Tier 9 Sov. Soyuz. Russian Iowa. I'm curious to see how this goes, the guns and AA will make or break this for me. 

SLEDGES NEW THOUGHTS HERE:
It looks like the new VMF BB line in the state listed above is going to be a brawling line. 1.7 sigma doesn't give me any warm fuzzies but I'm definitely still interested in playing them. If the dispersion gets tightened or sigma gets buffed slightly I think we'll be okay. The armor profiles still look tanky and Kurfurst is getting knocked off its top spot for biggest HP pool, though I guess now its user choice on which brawling line they will want to take. Those long reloads are disgusting, but I think those shells will hit quite hard in return. I can't stress enough that even though I don't necessarily like the direction they took in terms of gun handling, I'll still play them. As good aim as I have, I do like to brawl and I don't mind being on the front line. I'm wholly in support of the BB and CV only radar, since I've had a couple matches now that we lost because a CV on 2k HP hid behind an island or continuously blinked in and out of spotting while I was trying to get the last salvo for a kill. I have always hankered for a way to do this myself and I'm really interested in that mechanic. 

If you made it this far, thanks for reading, let me know what you think!
-Sledge

Edited by Sledgehammer427
New info provided via devblog
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Nice writeup, I agree Sinop with a 3x3 layout will have quite an advantage in the environment she will be placed.

What I am afraid of has to do with armour. If Im not wrong the Soviet industry often had issues with steel quality, even when it came to ships. Since armour quality is not really a factor in the game, we could end up with some pretty absurd armour figures. Hope that won't be an issue however.

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2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

Nice writeup, I agree Sinop with a 3x3 layout will have quite an advantage in the environment she will be placed.

What I am afraid of has to do with armour. If Im not wrong the Soviet industry often had issues with steel quality, even when it came to ships. Since armour quality is not really a factor in the game, we could end up with some pretty absurd armour figures. Hope that won't be an issue however.

I think you're on the right foot. If memory serves me right the Russians had trouble casting large amounts of armor past 50mm for ships specifically. Looking at the armor on the models posted, it looks like its going to be very German feeling up until tier 8, where Vladivostok, Sovetsky Soyuz, and Kreml all look to have more modern schemes like RN and US BBs. That said, all armor types have weaknesses, I've lost count on how many times I've farmed tons of damage on German BB bows with even Destroyer AP because the thick waterline belts fuse the shells before they overpen. I'm almost certain the Russian BBs will be slotted into a style that has you sniping from medium to long range before closing in to clean up whatever's left by mid to late game.

My only issue with Sinop is her firing angles. Maybe that boat won't get in the way but currently its blatantly blocking a good firing angle, opening you up to get your **** pushed in if you try to do a full broadside at shorter ranges. That said, I love her aesthetic and she'll probably be a keeper for me. 

My only concern (deep concern, that is) is what the devs want to do with the line's secondary suites. If they go full German and give them awesome secondaries the main guns will suffer in performance and I don't want that. I'd rather have crapola secondaries for self-defense and respectable guns instead. After the German and French lines, I hope the Russians aren't going to be secondary ships (though I'd find it hilarious if Lenin gets meme secondaries with those Kirov guns) 

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16 minutes ago, Awaited said:

From tier V to VI, the gun arrangement seems to take a step backward in turret arrangement. From VI to VII, it definitely takes a step backward on bow shape.

bow shape is weird, yes, but aesthetics are nice. 
I'm almost certain Izmail is going to make or break peoples experience with the line, imo

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Hmmmm.  I think Sledgehammer has some interesting takes on how the ships will perform, but I will have to add that I disagree with the gunnery.  More than likely I believe they will follow suit on being high velocity, semi-accurate ballistics and continue the trend that the vast majority of RU ships have in this regard.

And most likely, not on the paper stats, the soft stats that lie underneath the hood for the game such as krupp values they'll be massaged into godhood.  

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If you think Sinop's firing angles could be bad, you should see the real design...

The B-turret was not superfiring.

 

The 'Black Sea Dreadnought'

4IxDPDk.png

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1 hour ago, Phoenix_jz said:

If you think Sinop's firing angles could be bad, you should see the real design...

The B-turret was not superfiring.

 

The 'Black Sea Dreadnought'

I'll take my superfiring turrets where I can get them. My only concern is Sinop's after turret, which looks like its getting Ishizuchi'd by that boat
EDIT: I just noticed too the inward slant on the barbette for Turret B. :cap_hmm:

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As far as gunnery is concerned, the current Russian BB's are on the same dispersion tables as American and British ships, which is pretty good.  But that doesn't mean the entire line will follow (example - Warspite was on its own separate dispersion table, but when the British BB line came out, it matched the American line). 

Gunnery theory crafting using data from NavWeaps:

  • I think early Russian BB ships will perform similarly to what we already experience in game with the Imperator and Oktober battleships.  This means a steep decline in velocity over distance, but high oblique angles of attack, which will make penetrating deck armor very easy.  Once players account for the decline in gun velocity, these ships should be pretty easy to pick up.
  • T6 Izmael fires a 14" 1,649lb shell at 731mps, which is also very "British like" as far as in-game characteristics.  In fact, the gun was also used by the British IRL.  This low velocity, heavy shell combination on potentially US/UK dispersion tables may give the Izmael a similar feel to the US 14"/45cal gun used on the New York, Arizona, and Texas, or the 15" guns found on the Warspite.  Either way, it should feel fairly comfortable for most players to reliably hit their targets.
  • I suspect by T7/8 we'll see use of the 16"/45cal guns may feel like a mix between the USS Colorado and North Carolina in terms of handling and feel, so I suspect T7/T8 BB's may be armed with this one.  Penetration should be very good, but gun velocity on the lower side of the spectrum.
  • As we progress into the Soviet era with its extreme emphasis on high performance naval artillery, things might change.
  • T9 Sovetskii Soyuz - Big change in gun performance.  This ship fires a 16" 2,443lb shell between 830-870mps, and that means it's going to have high vertical dispersion (very high velocity, heavy round).  At 830mps, it's going to feel like a German gun.  At 870mps, it's going to feel like the Roma.  If it follows the US/UK dispersion table, then it's going to be minutely more manageable than the Roma, but not by much.   
  • T10 Kreml - Who knows what this guy will be.  I suspect either a 4x3 406mm/50cal configuration of the same guns used on the T9 Sovetskii Soyuz, or some 3x3 457mm configuration of Soviet fury. 
  • Overall, my gut feeling says that Russian BB gunnery will feel very British to start off with and transition to feeling very Roma-like by the end.  At the very low tiers, shells will lose velocity very quickly, giving them reasonable vertical dispersion patterns.  This makes things a little harder to aim, but super strong when they connect.  By mid tier, gunnery will feel similar to tech-tree British/American AP trajectory patterns imho, but with normalized fuse times.  At the higher tiers, players will be experiencing very high velocity, heavy shell trajectory patterns.  This means shells maintain their velocity and penetration-over-distance very well, but suffer from awful vertical dispersion.  Players will be able to hit targets very easily, and when they properly connect, the results will be devastating, but without being on battlecruiser dispersion tables like the Kronshtadt/Stalingrad, players may feel frustrated by the vertical dispersion and sheer numbers of overpens.  Fans of the Roma will love it (all 5 of them!).

Armor:

  • I don't have much to go off of here other than the pictures and that of the Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleship design.  At the low and mid tiers we'll probably see large surface areas of external armor of medium-to-high thickness, like what we see with the Oktober.  Judging from the pictures, too, it looks like a lot of forward extended belts, which will make these ships very bow tanky.  At the higher tiers we'll probably see armor profiles of unprecedented thickness marred by raised citadels and more exposed magazines.  Armor plating will be largely external - good at mitigating the effects of HE, but great at keeping in the effects of AP ;) - with the armor belt extending to the bow like what we see with the Roma, but not too far forward like with what we see with the Germans.  By T7+ I think the armor schemes will start to become more all-or-nothing like, with higher concentrations of armor in the belt, bulkheads, turrets, barbettes, and decking.  The armor profiles of the higher tiers lead me to believe that these ships will be built to operate at a medium to long ranged distance.
  • Torpedo defense should be in the 30% range, ish, by the higher tiers.  The Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleship uses the same torpedo defense network found on the Roma, and the Roma has a 38% TDS.

AA/Secondaries:

  • Secondaries - This is honestly where we see a lot of things "retconned" with Wargaming.  Secondary armament that should be very high performance, like American 5"/38 and British 134mm/50 Mk1 mounts, aren't, but Wargaming doesn't reflect that in-game.  This is also due to if secondary armament found on battleships were tuned to their realistic levels, it would make them grossly overpowered.  If Russian battleships are built to excel at the long range, then probably a no-go for secondary fans (like myself).
  • AA - Probably non-existent at the low end, to passable at the high end.

That's all I got for now.

 

 

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Fun with theorizing upcoming ships!

As far as RU BB Builds go I first have to look at a common characteristic every RU Ship Line in WoWS shares:  Proficiency at range. 

IMO the RU BB Line will follow suit.

My main interest with this line is primarily for Sovetsky Soyuz as the Russians were actually building these things.  She is also from the same generation of Battleships as Bismarck, North Carolina.

 

In simple terms, slap on ASM1 and go Main Battery - Survival - Concealment Build.  IMO these BBs are going to be pretty good at range, especially High Tier.  Build around that.  Build around Survival to make you annoying to take down and Concealment to control your engagements better.

 

The only things that may merit looking is whether the High Tier ones get good AA Suites, i.e. Tier IX Sovetsky Soyuz, as she was a very new design when the Russians were building her.    Will she be a good AA candidate?

Sovetsky Soyuz was laid down in 1938, Bismarck in 1936, North Carolina in 1937, etc.

S.Soyuz's AA armament, at least according to Wikipedia and looking at NavWeaps:

6x2 100mm B34 Dual Purpose Guns

6x2 152mm guns were not DP guns / not AA capable

10x4 37mm M1939 70-K

NavWeaps' description make the 37mm guns sound decent but nothing exceptional.

The 152mm guns are the same as those on Chapayev but in dual instead of triple mounts.

The 100mm DP guns aren't abundant.

 

Unless WG goes with a Fantasy Post-WWII Refit for Sovetsky Soyuz instead of "as built" values, North Carolina will have a far superior AA Suite than her.  So I would lean more towards the Main Battery - Survival - Stealth Hybrid Build.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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11 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Unless WG goes with a Fantasy Post-WWII Refit for Sovetsky Soyuz instead of "as built" values, North Carolina will have a far superior AA Suite than her.  So I would lean more towards the Main Battery - Survival - Stealth Hybrid Build.

Tashkent's B-hull is a fabrication assuming she survived getting bombed nearly to death, and then to death, in the black sea. I don't think they will have superior AA to anything. In fact I'm almost willing to bet on them having the most Japanese AA suites. Hopefully the devs do decide to focus on long-range gunnery, sticking with the traits of the rest of the tree rather than going British BB on us and throwing out a completely different set of parameters. I think @Ranari may very well be on the right track too. 

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I think Russian battleships will resemble closely that of Russian heavy tanks. Large displacement (lots of HP), tons of armor that is of poor quality, relatively fast, and very fast shell ballistics, however, they have poor penetration. I can see the Russian BBs being very good at longer ranges where they can solely rely on fast shell ballistics and loads of HP. They won't be very good brawlers in that they have a very slow rudder shift and lackluster armor that can be overmatched at close ranges.

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14 hours ago, Providences said:

I think Russian battleships will resemble closely that of Russian heavy tanks. Large displacement (lots of HP), tons of armor that is of poor quality, relatively fast, and very fast shell ballistics, however, they have poor penetration. I can see the Russian BBs being very good at longer ranges where they can solely rely on fast shell ballistics and loads of HP. They won't be very good brawlers in that they have a very slow rudder shift and lackluster armor that can be overmatched at close ranges.

I would agree to some extent, but not all.  Russian naval gunnery in this game for its destroyers and cruisers is very good (at least at the high tiers) with very high shell velocity and penetration.  I see no reason we'll also see that at the high tiers as well.  I would agree though that the gunnery on these guys would seem they're intended to fill a long-range role.  Whereas the Japanese guns rely on good velocity, great penetration, and fantastic accuracy to operate at the long range, Soviet battleships will rely on extreme velocity, great penetration, poor-to-average accuracy to hit their targets.  That'll make it easy to hit targets, but harder to land those devastating shots.

As for armor quality, that's just not something that is calculated in this game, and probably for the best.  Although important for tanks, armor quality is insurmountably important for battleships due to the striking power and penetration of high caliber naval artillery being so insane by comparison.  Tank armor is also designed to defend against a pretty narrow angle of obliquity, whereas battleship armor has to a consider a much broader spectrum and angle of attack (hence the development of immunity zones).  Additionally, if armor quality was taken into consideration, I think we'd see some ships (like many American ones) being considerably tougher than their enemy counterparts.  Those USS Standards come to mind with their considerable additions of STS plating during their 1930's and post-WW2 refits.

Long story short, if armor quality were taken into consideration, you'd see a lot of players all playing the same ships, and that's boring and not very healthy for the game.  Also, too, at a certain range, no amount of angling, which is extremely common in this game, would provide any additional protection.  None.  A shot through the bow at 10km or even 15km or less would go clean into the citadel without stopping and detonate the hell out of your ship.  It just takes an immense amount of material to stop a high caliber round - even more to stop a heavy AP bomb dropped from the air - that at some point no reasonable amount of armor will protect you.  That's one of the main reasons battleships were phased out world wide.

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Here is what I think they should do with Russian BBs, and what I'm hoping to see:

- ARMOR: Generalized armor profile like the Germans that makes it very resistant to heavy cruisers and light cruisers with IFHE ... *BUT* with a fairly easy to hit citadel. Not Nelson easy, but definitely USN BB easy at the very least. This will make it so this ship is best at range where it's citadel can be kept fairly safe and where it could just sit back and take railgun shots. TL;DR: Amazing against HE, very weak against AP when showing side. Cruisers will hate it, while battleships will long dreamily about seeing a broadside Russian.

- GUNS: Railguns for sure. High pen, but also prone to overpens. Best example would be Roma's guns, although more accurate. So maybe closer to French BB guns. Or maybe make the guns lower calibre but more accurate. Either way, they should be designed to be used at range instead of brawling.

- MOVEMENT: Fast BBs, although not as much as the French. No speed boost. Rudder and turning circle should be garbage. All russian ships in the game move like whales. The BBs should be no exception.

- AUXILIARY MOUNTS: AA should be average. Better than Japanese, worse than everyone else. Secondaries should be really short range.

- CONCEALMENT: Absolute garbage. Should be worse than even the Japanese. Ships should be seen from the moons ... of Jupiter.

GAMEPLAY: Stay at range and shell enemy ships with hyper fast and high penetration shells. Perhaps lower the fuse timer so they don't suffer from quite so many overpens like Roma. Ship should be able to tank loads of HE spam, but if an enemy battleship has line of sight to it's side, extreme punishment should be inbound. And while AA is decent, secondaries are not. These ships should definitely be encouraged to be second line snipers for most of the match and only pushing into cruisers once all enemy battleships have been accounted for.

Basically, Russian BBs should be HE resistant, but AP vulnerable ranged glass cannons. Similar to the Japanese, although with some differences. Better overall armor profile, roughly equivalent accuracy, equivalent AA, much worse secondaries.

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3 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Basically, Russian BBs should be HE resistant, but AP vulnerable ranged glass cannons. Similar to the Japanese, although with some differences. Better overall armor profile, roughly equivalent accuracy, equivalent AA, much worse secondaries.

Hence why I said they will be like German-Russian-French hybrids. I fully agree with your ideas. I hope they ill get implemented as you describe. 

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It will have radar, but it only detect cvs and BBs.....also, the t10 will be  stealthier then GK.....interesting 

Edited by Submarine_M1

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1 hour ago, Submarine_M1 said:

It will have radar, but it only detect cvs and BBs.....also, the t10 will be  stealthier then GK.....interesting 

I put in the post when I updated it that I'm ok with that. I've had a couple situations where I could have killed a CV but our DDs couldn't get close enough or were smoking up to not die from incoming strikes. I'll take it. 

And yeah Kremlin with more HP and more stealth while having 18" guns and not great dispersion or sigma is a weird call. I hope they get some kind of buff during testing but we will see. 

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I was hoping for Higher tiers to have faster Shells (Like Stalingrad or Moskva, or even in between) and better sigma, but that sort of stuff can be easily changed, so I am going to be on the lookout. Gameplay-wise, I'm thinking it'll be a lot like the Moskva, Bow on, very tanky, and can angle nicely, punishing AP Shells, can set fires decently, longer than average reload, and practically invulnerable when in the right position and supported correctly.

 

Edit: With Ovechkin's improved Skill, Survivability expert, It will give you the Largest HP pool in the game, a massive 112,300!

Edited by VostroyanAdmiral
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1 minute ago, VostroyanAdmiral said:

I was hoping for Higher tiers to have faster Shells (Like Stalingrad or Moskva, or even in between) and better sigma, but that sort of stuff can be easily changed, so I am going to be on the lookout. Gameplay-wise, I'm thinking it'll be a lot like the Moskva, Bow on, very tanky, and can angle nicely, punishing AP Shells, can set fires decently, longer than average reload, and practically invulnerable when in the right position and supported correctly.

I was actually looking at the Wiki for dispersion values because I'm really kinda worried about the gun handling of these ships, and for like the Kremlin at tier 10, her base dispersion is better than Montana's fully upgraded. Albeit with 3k less range but the slow shells and plunging fire tends to help do damage more than high velocity most times. I'm not a fan of the fact they went full British with the line, having a couple lines with one set of parameters and then making a new line with a totally different playstyle. 
I mean, then again I'm totally ok with not having a full line of Romas either.

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5 hours ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

I was actually looking at the Wiki for dispersion values because I'm really kinda worried about the gun handling of these ships, and for like the Kremlin at tier 10, her base dispersion is better than Montana's fully upgraded. Albeit with 3k less range but the slow shells and plunging fire tends to help do damage more than high velocity most times. I'm not a fan of the fact they went full British with the line, having a couple lines with one set of parameters and then making a new line with a totally different playstyle. 
I mean, then again I'm totally ok with not having a full line of Romas either.

Since dispersion is calculated at the max range possible for the ship atm, could that be why it has better dispersion? Could be Monte actually has similar dispersion at that range, but since it has longer range, that's the value there.

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4 minutes ago, Purg473 said:

Since dispersion is calculated at the max range possible for the ship atm, could that be why it has better dispersion? Could be Monte actually has similar dispersion at that range, but since it has longer range, that's the value there.

Quite possibly. Kremlin and Iowa have the same dispersion at max range, which means Kremlin is less accurate overall. I think its basically a line of shotguns. I really hope we see a buff, nothing else is inspiring about these ships save for the HP and armor, unless there's some stat we aren't seeing that will help these ships bigtime

 

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Main issue I see with it is the triples of 457s...Conqueror proved that 457s don't actually work any better than 419s, or even 406s for the most part...for me at least, if it's not going to hit the 32mm lolpen factor, I don't see a point in going past 420mm or so, since you can basically run a 419 Conq and do the same things with 3 more barrels.

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10 hours ago, Purg473 said:

Main issue I see with it is the triples of 457s...Conqueror proved that 457s don't actually work any better than 419s, or even 406s for the most part...for me at least, if it's not going to hit the 32mm lolpen factor, I don't see a point in going past 420mm or so, since you can basically run a 419 Conq and do the same things with 3 more barrels.

Purg, bro, that's like saying the Stalingrad won't perform at T10 because it uses 305mm guns.  There is so much more to artillery performance in this game than its ability to overmatch.  The Conqueror was never balanced around its 457mm battery, and its performance proves nothing in the game.  Seriously, apples to oranges.

Back to the topic:

Now that the data is out, I have a few questions, and I'm wondering if some of the data might be a typo (?).  One of the things I've been curious about is which dispersion table these battleships will use.  Currently in the game, you see entire lines use the same dispersion tables.  So for instance, the US, UK, and current Russian battleships are all on the same table.  You then have German, French, and Italian battleships all on the same table.  All IJN battleships are on their own dispersion table that gives them much reduced dispersion at range than anybody else.  And then off to the side, you have a special dispersion table that is only used by the Warspite, Hood, and Vanguard to make them more competitive with their 4x2 configuration.  See below:

The thing is, when I plug in the ranges to my graph, these Russian battleships appear to fall under multiple dispersion tables.  Some seem to line up with the US/RU/RU line.  Some seem to align with the KMS/RM/MN line.  And some seem to align with the Warspite/Hood/Vanguard line.  It's really not the end-all-be-all, but I'm curious if Wargaming added a new dispersion table specifically for these ships.  Or, if the data is slightly off. 

image.thumb.png.8dd97ed490cb58c92a18ba8cad080134.png

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12 hours ago, Purg473 said:

Main issue I see with it is the triples of 457s...Conqueror proved that 457s don't actually work any better than 419s, or even 406s for the most part...for me at least, if it's not going to hit the 32mm lolpen factor, I don't see a point in going past 420mm or so, since you can basically run a 419 Conq and do the same things with 3 more barrels.

I actually run 457 Conqueror exclusively and as an AP-centric shooter, I really enjoy how they handle. Unfortunately there will never be another ship in the game that will be able to bow-pen high tier ships like Yamato will do. The developers made it very clear that its going to be exclusive to Yamato and Musashi, and nothing will change that. 

I always recommend people try the 457s on Conqueror at least 5 matches, just to get the feel of them, as I feel the 457s make Conqueror feel very balanced and "right." Even if your overall damage totals are a little lower. (That said, my avg dmg is pretty competitive for having run nothing but the 457s)

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2 hours ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

I actually run 457 Conqueror exclusively and as an AP-centric shooter, I really enjoy how they handle. Unfortunately there will never be another ship in the game that will be able to bow-pen high tier ships like Yamato will do. The developers made it very clear that its going to be exclusive to Yamato and Musashi, and nothing will change that. 

I always recommend people try the 457s on Conqueror at least 5 matches, just to get the feel of them, as I feel the 457s make Conqueror feel very balanced and "right." Even if your overall damage totals are a little lower. (That said, my avg dmg is pretty competitive for having run nothing but the 457s)

I ran it on occasion myself...but wound up going back to the 419s most of the time because the 457s seem like they overpen everything, that and giving up 4 barrels...I wouldn't mind it as much if it didn't all overpen so dang much, lol...I still keep them purchased so I can switch back and forth as the mood hits.

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