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Gramzon_the_Dragon

Bismark vs Kurfurst Build

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Heyo, back again. Was looking at some stats and ran into some trouble with my currently build plan. 

I was originally going to stop at Bismark as I have a Varg permacamo ready and waiting, but looking at Tirp and Biz's guns, I noticed while their larger 150mm secondaries get the 1/4 HE pen for a very healthy 37mm of HE pen, their smaller 100mm don't seem to, and get a -wimpy- 17mm of penetration, or rather, not even enough to damage a damn destroyer at tier 8 and beyond, which they will face often. But all the way at the top, Kurfurst seems to get 1/4 pen 128mm to replace the 100's, which has 30mm of pen, basically making it so out of the box it's guns can hammer all DDs andmost cruisers, including 27mm ones. 

 

So if staying with Bismark, should i abandon getting superintendent to get IFHE? I think so. but if I advance to kurfurst, should I drop IFHE to get either superintendent or concealment expert as i would only lose the ability for 128s to pen battleships. thoughts? IFHE for kurfurst, or spec for more survival/conceal?

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I think someone did something to show that IFHE on GK was good, it let the GK also have an effect on BB bows. But sadly, it would take like 700 hits or something to kill a BB with secondaries. They just do too dang little at the GK level. and She's just tooooooo fat to get in that close. 

GK seems to really need the zombie survival build. Rarely have I wanted the secondary build while I had zombie.  Just too dang close and too fat and too easy to be on fire. 

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2 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

I think someone did something to show that IFHE on GK was good, it let the GK also have an effect on BB bows. But sadly, it would take like 700 hits or something to kill a BB with secondaries. They just do too dang little at the GK level. and She's just tooooooo fat to get in that close. 

GK seems to really need the zombie survival build. Rarely have I wanted the secondary build while I had zombie.  Just too dang close and too fat and too easy to be on fire. 

That was me.  :)

I had a lot of fun making the video that I've just kept going.  My channel is tiny, but I've been adding more content:  Ranari's Brawling Channel on Youtube

2 hours ago, Gramzon_the_Dragon said:

So if staying with Bismark, should i abandon getting superintendent to get IFHE? I think so. but if I advance to kurfurst, should I drop IFHE to get either superintendent or concealment expert as i would only lose the ability for 128s to pen battleships. thoughts? IFHE for kurfurst, or spec for more survival/conceal?

Bismarck's secondaries become A LOT more potent with IFHE, but it's a captain skill that is only optional once you get to FdG and Kurfurst.  If you plan on keeping the Bismarck for the long haul and really want your secondaries to be amazing, then it's probably worth getting over CE. 

Edited by Ranari

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4 hours ago, Ranari said:

That was me.  :)

I had a lot of fun making the video that I've just kept going.  My channel is tiny, but I've been adding more content:  Ranari's Brawling Channel on Youtube

Bismarck's secondaries become A LOT more potent with IFHE, but it's a captain skill that is only optional once you get to FdG and Kurfurst.  If you plan on keeping the Bismarck for the long haul and really want your secondaries to be amazing, then it's probably worth getting over CE. 

How much more potent is bismarck with IFHE? got numbers? 

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7 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

How much more potent is Bismarck with IFHE? got numbers? 

I do, sorta.

As with a lot of ships in this game, the total raw DPM of the secondary battery for the Bismarck is spread ~67% and ~33% between the small caliber (105mm) and large caliber (150mm) guns, respectively.  Now, the most important armor penetration threshold for a secondary build is whatever the superstructure armor value is of your target.  Because that's a value assigned by tier and not specifically by warship, we always see this for the tier bracket that the Bismarck is in:

  • T6 BB's - 16mm
  • T7 BB's - 16mm
  • T8 BB's - 19mm
  • T9 BB's - 19mm
  • T10 BB's - 19mm

Without IFHE, the 105mm guns on the Bismarck can only penetrate 17mm of armor, so against T8+ battleships they're only good for starting fires.  With IFHE, you're opening up 2/3rds of your secondary DPM for doing penetration work.  Looking at it in reverse, you can only do 1/3rd of your pen damage without IFHE, so that's a ~300% improvement by taking the skill.  Enemy battleships are always your #1 damage target for secondaries, so that can mean an extra 8,000-24,000 pen damage per game depending on how things go.  And, that matches up to about what I experienced.  When I started playing the Bismarck, I was doing about 5-10k penetration damage (+fire) from my secondaries.  After I took IFHE midway through my Bismarck grind, I was seeing 20-30k in penetration values (+fire) per game. 

To be fair though, I am not a fan of players having to take IFHE for some battleships to get the most out of their secondaries.  The Bayern doesn't need it.  The Gneisenau sure as heck doesn't need it.  The Scharnhorst is iffy but can get away without it 'cause she sees far fewer T8+ battleships.  The Friedrich no longer needs it thanks to her 105mm battery receiving the 1/4 pen buff.  The Kurfurst definitely doesn't need it.  All these ships do see some benefit from the skill, but are plenty functional without it.  The Bismarck/Tirpitz sits right in the middle where, due to her bracket and tiers of battleships she most often faces (she'll see mostly T8+ BB's), it's almost necessary to take IFHE if you want to do any real work with your secondaries.  That kinda sucks because her rival, the Massachusetts, doesn't need IFHE to function. 

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12 hours ago, BlailBlerg said:

How much more potent is bismarck with IFHE? got numbers? 

I wish I could give you exact numbers but I got my first karken in the kurfurst in my first game with ifhe.   I took out an Edinburgh  with just secondaries.   I do have manual secondaries too.   I am not sure if my team was also firing on the Edinburgh also.  I was using my main batteries on a bb at the time.   Doing that game I had two secondary kills

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Ill probably be slotting IFHE once I hit the 18 point mark then, worse comes to worse I got a crap load of doubloons from crates so I can respec if I get to Kurfürst and find I need superintendent and AR instead

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GK in an IFHE Secondaries Build is a monster.  Anything, including other BBs that get into Secondaries range, simply starts bleeding HP from the raw HE Pens.  The German 128 and 150mm guns get the special /4 HE Pen instead of the normal /6 that the 105s and such get in Bismarck / Tirpitz and prior tiers of German BBs.

 

The misgiving I have with IFHE Secondaries Builds in PVP is the cost.  It takes an unholy amount of points dedication.  At Tier 4 alone, it requires IFHE + AFT + Manual Secondaries.  That's 12 points already right there.  You need to spend 6 just to get to Tier 4 to begin with.  It leaves very little for anything else like CE to make life easy or FP to withstand fires more easily.

 

Without Stealth Build, GK's concealment is very bad and you will have zero control of your engagements unless you sit very far away.  There are times you need to disengage, "Go Dark" to recover from fires and do repairs.  But with bad concealment in a Tier X BB that's impossible to do, especially when fires worsen your detection range.  With Stealth Build, you are also not the first dumb*[edited]that people see in a match.  If you are one of those with bad detection, what happens is that every a**hole in the game with the long range is simply looking for the first target to unload against.  Most of those long ranged attacks against you will miss, but some will find their mark.  You then eat a bunch of damage even BEFORE you get into your fighting position that you wanted to get to to start the match.  When you finally get to that first fighting position, you have already lost 20% of your HP or worse (sometimes you get long range citadels against you).  You may have a fire or two blazing at the same time on you.

 

I implement Stealth Build for my Brawler BBs when it comes to PVP.  Republique, GK, Bismarck / Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Bayern, even my AA Gneisenau.  It makes life so much more easy.

 

I do have IFHE Secondaries Build for PVP.  Alsace.  I used to do PVP IFHE GK, but not anymore.  Again, IFHE Secondaries can be extremely effective, but you give up a lot.  Alsace with her insane ROF forces ships to BLEED HP.   But with her 15km or so detection range, she is extremely uncomfortable to play in PVP at times.  Sure, it's awesome when the reds are folding, you got a DD screen pushing in front of you, my IFHE Alsace is right behind them, and I got a Cruiser behind me for gun support.  But that's the IDEAL SCENARIO.  Many times in high tier you are waiting to make that chance for a hard push, to really leverage your Secondaries / Brawler advantage.  You cannot simply recklessly push in at the wrong time, you'll always get rekt.  ALWAYS.  You have to be patient.  Sometimes you get zero opportunities to push in for a brawl.  It's that Non-Brawling Phase of the game, which is most of sometimes all of a match, where not having Stealth Build becomes a big issue.

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