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Admiral_Thrawn_1

Why Add Russian Battleships Line Now?

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I am wondering why exactly Wargaming is doing Russian “BB” line now which they never had enough real ships to do. When we still lack Italian BB, CA, and DD tech tree with real or mostly real ships. We also lack French DDs, some have said we lack some DDs and CA of various nations to form second tech tree lines. We have lacked the RN CVs, but heard those are now coming.

Honestly I would expect Wargaming to even add submarines before adding Russian BBs.

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Money. Russian population on wows is quite higher than Italian or French one. Also, bb are the posterboy of wows. So biggest player base + bigger nation on wows. 

 

Because sure, Italian have far more relevance here than Panasian and at least as much as Russia, but oh well.

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The Italian archives are apparently a real pain for WG to get access to. On the other hand, the Russian archives are across the street. I think you can figure it out from here.

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Low hanging fruit. Information on Russian BB projects is probably easy for WG to get, even less need for historical accuracy as most of them don't even have to resemble a ship that saw action.

For some reason WG hasn't had much luck implementing Italian equipment, WoT only recently added Italian tanks, Warplanes has no Italian aircraft despite Italian aircraft being quite interesting. Warships was the first WG product that I know of that had added anything Italian.

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37 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Low hanging fruit. Information on Russian BB projects is probably easy for WG to get, even less need for historical accuracy as most of them don't even have to resemble a ship that saw action.

For some reason WG hasn't had much luck implementing Italian equipment, WoT only recently added Italian tanks, Warplanes has no Italian aircraft despite Italian aircraft being quite interesting. Warships was the first WG product that I know of that had added anything Italian.

Then why not have done Russian BBs before if they were such a good idea?

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I seem to recall that they were queued up before the RN but it did not go over well and they were pushed back.  

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9 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Then why not have done Russian BBs before if they were such a good idea?

From a name recognition standpoint, you needed the Iowas (being in service within living memory of a lot of people) and something to fight (enter the IJN). After that, You've got Bismarck and her victim, Hood. Beyond that, you'd need some interest in naval history or need to live near a museum to know much about WWI or WWII ships, so I'm really surprised it wasn't the Russian BB's. Unless WG waited until they knew how the other major BB lines were going fit together, and the Russian BB line would be quite easy to mold to fit whatever hole in play-styles they might want to fill because all the higher tiers are paper ships.

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To be fair, they did add the French BB's first before planning to go ahead with the Russian ones.

I'm disappointed too that the Italians haven't gotten at least one full Tech Tree Line in-game yet, but this is also an opportunity. Once the Russian BB's go in-game, then they can focus on Italy and the other nations that still need lines, plus line splits for existing nations. WG already announced they are working on the 1st UK Premium Heavy Cruiser for in-game, so the line split for that can't be very far off (or at least is now in the near future). Games like this do take time to develop. Just look at World of Tanks, they are still adding lines and nations in.

As the old saying goes "good things come to those that wait". Well for some, the wait for this line is almost over, then the waiting for others can't be very far off or are now closer than before.

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8 hours ago, TheStarSlayer said:

I seem to recall that they were queued up before the RN but it did not go over well and they were pushed back.  

That is the understanding.


Russian battleships are not a surprise. It had been a long time since a line for the home team had been created.

Russian large cruisers and RN destroyers popping up everywhere  at the beginning of the year as well as a lack of Italian heavy cruiser premium telegraphed WG's moves. Still irritating none the less that WG just can't come out and state the obvious. :cap_book: We all knew the Russian battleships where coming. 


As for the Italian archives the excuse is extremely long in the tooth. WG had several ways to address this over the years to allow for efficient project management. The problem children are well known. Half the solutions are the genesis for Russian tree high tier projects. WG has had no problems using books as sources before or even less. Hell WG had no problem using books to model Abruzzi and Roma. Up to and including improper stats on purpose to Balans™ Roma properly. Issues with USN and IJN ships have been found to be sourced from books. Really it is odd that WG has had no issue with custom projects or book sources until it comes to the Italian line for some reason. We have some numerous concessions already in the game:

  • Japanese HE bonus
  • Japanese 203mm dispersion bonus
  • Japanese 127mm bonus
  • German AP bonus
  • British cruiser armor bonus
  • British RN Hydrodynamics™.
  • Book sourced stats.
  • Lesta Bureau of Ships specials:
    • Zao
    •  Roon
    •  Hindenburg
    •  Japanese DDAA split
    •  FdG/GK(Frankensteined) 

Certain things are probably not going to be found in the archives. Littorio class post war refit if the MMI had succeeded on keeping the ships. Other post-war dream work that there just were not funds for plus NATO mandates. Some form of 60.000 ton 18" Yamato rival. Etc.


 

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On 12/19/2018 at 10:57 PM, SgtBeltfed said:

Low hanging fruit.

That about sums it up. The developer for Warships, Lesta Studios, is in St Petersburg. Its been said the Aurora is parked within viewing range of the offices. Which means, you guessed it, the Russian State Naval Archives is basically a short walk away. (EDIT: I should mention here, too, that Russian nationals have a much easier time entering Russian state archives than their foreign counterparts but, while I think thats a given, you never know.)
Lets look, too, at the first two Italian premiums introduced to the game:
-Duca D'Aosta, given to the USSR as war reparations and renamed first as Stalingrad, then as Kerch. Detailed documentation was generated about the ship, and it was run until her engines burned up and died. Documentation, more than likely, ended up in the RSNA. 
-Giulio Cesare, given to the USSR as war reparations and renamed Novorossiysk, more detailed documentation was generated, the ship was refit 8 times and was used for training until she exploded in 1955. Everyone wants to say they did it, but the documentation ended up in the RSNA. 

Two Italians, both transferred to Russia postwar, both were likely stripped and reverse engineered and thus Lesta has a wealth of data to use to make the ships in game to a high level of detail with a minimum need for QC.*
My thought is that the Russian Battleships are more done than we think they are. The models look very much complete, its up to the soft stats that will decide how they play. I've also ventured a theory that they won't be releasing until Gamescom 2019. Game pop drops during the summer and thus WG will hold off on a big line like this until the fall/winter season starts again and people will want to stay inside more. I may be wrong but I've been right more than I've been pleasantly surprised. 

 

 

*((While I know a lot of people tend to riff on WG for their practices in making ships, when a devblog comes out detailing how they did it, I find them to be very conscious and thoughtful of the design process involved and take their job of shipbuilding very seriously))

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I will go out on a limb and say WG isn't going to show off the Rodina's finest only to hold them hostage for an October release. 

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Why not?  Are we really complaining about this?  WG has been consistently releasing new content, and I'm appreciative of it regardless.

Seriously, some of ya'll sound like toddlers throwing a hissy fit that your milk wasn't warm.

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5 hours ago, Ranari said:

Why not?  Are we really complaining about this?  WG has been consistently releasing new content, and I'm appreciative of it regardless.

Seriously, some of ya'll sound like toddlers throwing a hissy fit that your milk wasn't warm.

It’s not the issue that they are doing Russian BBs in and of itself. It’s the matter of them doing what will be mostly paper ships, when some lines of real historical ships have not yet been added. So Russian BBs in the minds of many players probably should have been more of a 2020 sort of line or something.

Not to mention the fact those BBs will either be far more OP than they should be or weaker than expected because they are paper ships. And some designs on paper unless very well designed would have needed modifications once construction was under way or even later as a refit to correct design flaws.

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On 12/19/2018 at 10:56 PM, RipNuN2 said:

The Italian archives are apparently a real pain for WG to get access to. On the other hand, the Russian archives are across the street. I think you can figure it out from here.

yeah and the russian archives has as much to do with reality as my comic book collection

 

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well then, sorry to make such a painful relevant joke in your direction without any foreknowledge of your previous predicaments Bosco. What was it like, helping the Mujaheddin? I had a history teacher in high school who taught them to use stinger missiles against the Soviets. Best teacher I ever had. 
I stand by my statement. You're allowed to dislike the Russians that weaponized dolls (the first report I could find on the subject curiously links directly to the year 1979((EDIT: another thing is that while its easy to see how it could backfire pretty quickly, kids aren't supposed to be in warzones and most of the devices I saw referenced were like pens, harmonicas, radios, and porcelain birds, which would look pretty innocuous on a street and would likely be passed over or stepped on or shuffled around by loot-hunting soldiers))) 
But I think you can stand to take a step back and remember that most of the developers who work on this game were more than likely figuring out how to stop crapping themselves when the Soviet Union collapsed, if they were even born yet. Its really shocking what a generation or two's difference will make in the moral makeup of a country. Lesta Studios is 100% not run by cold war soldiers and weapons manufacturers. I can tell you that for a fact. 

As a total aside, I love that you cherrypicked one tiny statement of mine on a totally different subject and are trying to punish me with it. 
Why not respond constructively to the paragraph preceding my snarky closing question? After all, this is a game based on warships, and that was 99.9% what my response was directed at. 

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Actually i don't really like any of the paper ships. I tend to play the ships whose class was actually commissioned and put into service. Leave the the may have been and the make believe for the Twilight and Space Battles type events which were a hoot to play by the way. No i think a game premised on warships from between the turn of the 20th century and the end of WW2 has enough ships that really existed without resorting to the files of the could of been's.  

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2 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

It’s not the issue that they are doing Russian BBs in and of itself. It’s the matter of them doing what will be mostly paper ships, when some lines of real historical ships have not yet been added. So Russian BBs in the minds of many players probably should have been more of a 2020 sort of line or something.

Not to mention the fact those BBs will either be far more OP than they should be or weaker than expected because they are paper ships. And some designs on paper unless very well designed would have needed modifications once construction was under way or even later as a refit to correct design flaws.

Like...what battleships?  Most of the real ships are already in game.  I'll give the Italian BB line to you, but given the lack of much anything from Italy, I suspect the lack of cooperation from the Italian government really has more to do with this than we think.  As for intermediary ships in other nations, like US Nevada class or British Revenge class battleships, sure, but those types of ships will be relegated to Premium status to add value and one-off style of gameplay experiences for each line (like the USS Massachusetts is a brawling potential for US lovers).  Otherwise, there's not a whole lot to work with as far as "real battleships" are concerned.  Battleships are capital ships and only the wealthiest nations with the most developed steel foundries could actually build them.  That narrows it down to the US, UK, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, and technically Russia too. 

Remember, too, that tech-tree lines offer Wargaming the potential to add a complete new line with a brand new style of gameplay, so this is a lot different than just adding a Premium here and there.  US battleships don't play like Japanese battleships, and Japanese battleships certainly don't play like German ones, etc etc.  This is a good thing, and definitely something to look forward to.  I strongly suspect that the high tier Russian battleships are going to feel a lot like beefier Roma's to a lot of players.  Not sure many will like that, honestly.

In the end, this is a very good thing.  I like new additions like this, because this changes things up.  I hate to say it, but the Wargaming player base can be very boring, stale, and doesn't like change.  Let's remember that this is an arcade game, not a warship simulator.  Nothing about it is realistic.

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7 minutes ago, bosco1111 said:

Actually i don't really like any of the paper ships. I tend to play the ships whose class was actually commissioned and put into service. Leave the the may have been and the make believe for the Twilight and Space Battles type events which were a hoot to play by the way. No i think a game premised on warships from between the turn of the 20th century and the end of WW2 has enough ships that really existed without resorting to the files of the could of been's.  

I respect your reply on the matter. I'm of a different cut that is interested by the could-have-beens, especially in naval combat where the actual wars themselves hindered some countries with interesting designs to scrap them for more guns or more tanks or airplanes or what have you. The problem is that with the introduction of the Des Moines into the game at tier 10 we are really starting to peek forward into late-40's early-50s designs that were generated by war, but never built or never got to see action. DM and Worcester are perfect because they are just continuations of a philosophy that was relevant during the war and quickly found themselves without a job afterwards. I'm sure a lot of people wondered what Worcester could do in a gunfight, and now, we kinda know :cap_rambo: The other issue is that while there is a wealth of designs out there, the developers are really picky and try to get close to very minute details in designs. Some archives just aren't as easy to get into as others. Sometimes ships that aren't in game that did exist don't provide much difference in gameplay from one another. What good is an R-class battleship when we have the Queen Elizabeth's in the tree? or comparing New Mexico and Arizona. There really isn't much different between them when you strip off the bodywork. Same Frame, same guns, same speed, same armor. Arizona is really just a more accurate, reskinned New Mexico the same way the Hummer H3 is really just a reskinned, heavier Chevy Tahoe. 
Specifically with the Russians, their ship designs evolved much slower during and post-WWII. Kutuzov really isn't much different from a WWII cruiser (in fact her design, and the design of the Chapayev class she was built from and improved upon, borrows heavily from the Prinz Eugen class, by accident or on purpose, its actually really apparent the longer you look) and Project 66, what we know as the Moskva in this game, was designed to counter the Des Moines, even though if it was built and finished wouldn't have been ready until the 60s at best. 

I just find it cool that the developers are taking so much time not only to find interesting designs and put them in the game, but as @Ranari said, they also will provide new and interesting player experiences regardless of the flag the ship is flying in the game and I look forward to that. 

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I am actually looking forward to the introduction of the Russian Battleship line more than any other line currently in the game. Nothing WG has done in regard to the design of their warships has been historically inaccurate to the point  of pure conjecture. The French BB line was a work of art. The in depth research and historical fidelity to actual French proposals and to what was then French state of the art weaponry was/ is pure artistry. I understand that the devs took some license but all within the above parameters.

I always wondered how a Soviet Soyuv would look like under sail. That BB is as real as the Montana. It was proposed. laid down, partially constructed, and scrapped on the slip as was its US counterpart(s), the Montana class. 

Really, what fan of BB'S would not want the beasts as promulgated by Russian designers and  Stalin in the game? These were actual proposals that I am sure sailed somewhere in a parallel  Universe where a German Dictator did not precipitously launch a huge and primarily land campaign against Soviet Russia.

 

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On 12/19/2018 at 9:28 PM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I am wondering why exactly Wargaming is doing Russian “BB” line now which they never had enough real ships to do. When we still lack Italian BB, CA, and DD tech tree with real or mostly real ships. We also lack French DDs, some have said we lack some DDs and CA of various nations to form second tech tree lines. We have lacked the RN CVs, but heard those are now coming.

Honestly I would expect Wargaming to even add submarines before adding Russian BBs.

That's because, Russia already has a cruiser and destroyer lines. It's only logical to finish the Russia first before starting new lines for Italy (which has none,  hasn't been started) Russia hasn't been finished yet, "Always finish what you start" 

 

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On 1/2/2019 at 6:25 AM, bosco1111 said:

Actually i don't really like any of the paper ships. I tend to play the ships whose class was actually commissioned and put into service.

Same. But on the bright side it makes me appreciate Gangut which is the only real ship in the entire RU BB line. I intend to free xp to her and stop there. I would've grinded towards Imperatritsa Mariya as she's my most favourite warship, except since she's not in the RU BB line which is a real bummer. Besides we already had the RN DD line which are all real, so I guess it's only fair that the next line is mostly paper/fake.

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18 hours ago, Starfleet1701 said:

That's because, Russia already has a cruiser and destroyer lines. It's only logical to finish the Russia first before starting new lines for Italy (which has none,  hasn't been started) Russia hasn't been finished yet, "Always finish what you start" 

 

That's not how WG has worked and WG has at least been patently dishonest about any work on the Italian line. Normally it requires someone from the RU server sharing information. And that information is usually not very nice. Such as devs mocking Italian warships that are several years older, and real, compared to projects the great VMF was working on. 

On the EU/NA/SEA clusters we get complete silence.

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1 hour ago, Sparviero said:

Such as devs mocking Italian warships that are several years older, and real, compared to projects the great VMF was working on. 

The crime of Italian warships is that they were real. I guess WG prefers paper designs because they're easier and cheaper to work with, while also putting in some of their own fantasy refits.

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