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Ducky_shot

Does WG hate skill?

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So over the course of my 2.5 years of playing this game, things have changed dramatically. It seemed when I started that skill was valued. The game rewarded skilled play. Lately it seems that WG is going away from that. Taking things away from segments of the player base that they already had could end up alienating those segments. If Co-op had full xp and credit rewards and mission availability and then were nerfed to what it is now, imagine the outcry. Instead we see steady requests for improvement to it. If it were things that were taken away from them, then an outcry would be expected.


When I started WG rewarded good play in ranked battles. The major rewards (flags and ships) were only obtained by players achieving rank 1 multiple seasons. Later, clan battles came along and players had to achieve the Stalingrad flags with 30 wins in Typhoon. As was to be expected players that could not achieve these rewards have complained steadily about not having access to these exclusive rewards for skill and/or determination. The main argument I have seen was that other games have cosmetic rewards instead of exclusive vehicles or gear. These players advocated that everyone should have access to these rewards and skilled/determined players get cosmetics. I started as a player who could not achieve rank 1 and not once in those early seasons for me did I complain about skilled players having exclusive access to reward ships. You can search my history if you want. I remember posting that, yes I wanted to get a Flint, but I didn't want everyone to be able to get it. I wanted it to be an 
accomplishment. I wanted it to be an achievement, both for those players that were able to get it then and for players that would strive to achieve it in the future, whether or not I was ever able to achieve it.


Well now, they have gotten their wish. Steel was implemented and available at lower levels of both ranked and clan battles. Now they are giving it away for co-op wins and campaigns. Shoot, they even took away the exclusive pirate flags and are implementing emblems that can be achieved by any player without every touching ranked 1 or Typhoon league (don't quote me on that, it was a while since I saw the details for them)


Hey, all this is OK, WG can do whatever they want, but they do it at the risk of alienating players and causing a lack of participation in game modes where skill was rewarded.Same thing with the CV rework. CV's needed fixed, not many people are going to argue against that. 
But they have basically gotten this rework dumbed down to the point that they are saying that the player base is too stupid to be able to trigger their own consumables. Like we can't pay attention to 2 things at the same time.... and hit other buttons. CV was a super skilled class with a lot of the most skilled players in the game playing it, and WG is taking any skill away from it.


Yet with both of these situations it just seems that WG is trying to push away the skilled playerbase. And at the same time, I hear from other segments on how they want to push more competitive play. 
(player organized tournaments, etc)

 
So 2 questions:
Why does it seem that WG is trying to push away and penalize skilled players? 


Where are the members of the player base now that argued for giving everyone access to the exclusive ships and give skilled players new cosmetic rewards? You got your access to the exclusive ships and are proving now that you didn't actually care about the second half of your argument and are a hypocrite. If you actually cared about your argument, why aren't you out advocating for exclusive 
cosmetic rewards for skilled players in ranked and clan battles? They have taken away exclusive ships and cosmetic rewards and replaced it with nothing for skilled players. Did you not actually believe your own argument? 

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Given the "quality" of in-game tutorials WG has made... and the experience of learning the game as a new player (seriously, everyone experienced should create a new account and observe this)?

Yes, WG hates skill.

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Well stated. Would be interested to see those casual players as well as WGs response to this were one forthcoming.

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your problem starts with the assumption that playing clan battles and ranked battles equals your a skilled player.

 

when really some aspects of it are no different from monkeys and a typewriter producing the works of Shakespeare if given enough time and an element of luck.

 

and that's before you have even got to the level playing-field forcing a pure game without mods of ANY type.

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7 minutes ago, b101uk said:

your problem starts with the assumption that playing clan battles and ranked battles equals your a skilled player.

 

when really some aspects of it are no different from monkeys and a typewriter producing the works of Shakespeare if given enough time and an element of luck.

 

and that's before you have even got to the level playing-field forcing a pure game without mods of ANY type.

I will eagerly await your clan winning games in Typhoon league. Or KoTS. Since it's just a matter of time, apparently.

Seriously, do you actually believe this? You have a huge forum crusade against in-game mods (including those sponsored by Wargaming itself).

I challenge anyone who thinks that clan battles doesn't reflect skill at all to get to Typhoon. I suspect that an 07/ZR group of 7 could play a hundred games against a clan of 50% players and lose less than 5 of them, if any at all.

Edited by enderland07
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4 minutes ago, b101uk said:

your problem starts with the assumption that playing clan battles and ranked battles equals your a skilled player.

I agree that playing ranked/clan does not mean you are skilled as you can fail your way to the top.

I do agree that there should be some high end rewards only available to:

1)  Those that are skilled and obtain rank 1

2)  Those that are not skilled, play a zillion battles, and obtain rank 1

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If you use Matchmaking monitor and look at the "Average" skill player you will see that the overwhelming majority of players in this game are really bad. So Wargaming keeps lowering the bar in an attempt to let the low skilled players at least be competent. Nothing has worked to this point, the Potatoes will continue to potate. Catering to the low skill player is always a mistake and it kills games in the long run.

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The assumption of skill is further hampered by the fact that mere persistence allowed many to get overpowered ships that were not available to others, which were then used to gain further rewards.  Very much like giving Olympic athletes that win a gold medal a permanent advantage over all other competitors.  This was a ridiculous idea from the start, and makes any notion of a true competition, which would require a level playing field for all competitors, a joke.  Now WG has chosen to reward a different form of persistence, that of collecting all the high tier ships, with similar, but smaller, rewards.  So what?

Just to be clear, the only steel ships available from these event in a practical sense are Flint and Black, which had nothing to do with Clan Battles.  People who win at Clan Battles still have their unique reward ships, and there is nowhere near enough steel in these events to get those ships.  This only affects people who got ships from Ranked Battles.

Edited by Nhi_Vanye

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@Ducky_shot Perhaps WG has concluded that having a game that caters to skilled players is unprofitable for them, and would rather cater to the lowest common denominator to ensure increased short term fiscal gain.

Long term player involvement is pretty much a guarantee on the RU and EU clusters based on WoT levels of participation over time.  Perhaps since the NA WoTs scene died after a 3-4 year peak, they are expecting the same for WoWs and just want to get a return now, while the player base is still large enough.  In some ways it already seems like the best players are drifting away from everyday participation and focusing only on certain events.  If the point of them playing those events for Steel to purchase rare/elite ships is removed due to flooding the server with steel - I would expect them to drift away faster.

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9 minutes ago, b101uk said:

your problem starts with the assumption that playing clan battles and ranked battles equals your a skilled player.

 

when really some aspects of it are no different from monkeys and a typewriter producing the works of Shakespeare if given enough time and an element of luck.

 

and that's before you have even got to the level playing-field forcing a pure game without mods of ANY type.

Some of what you say is true. There was a guy who fought over 700 ranked battles and failed his way to rank one with a 43% win rate. However when it comes to clan wars scrubs are not getting into Typhoon league. Clan Wars is a testament to the skill of the the teams involved. There is no way to dispute that. 

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How about removing RNG all together. The cream will rise to the top and the "less than stellar" players will (hopefully) leave 

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43 minutes ago, Botcha said:

How about removing RNG all together. The cream will rise to the top and the "less than stellar" players will (hopefully) leave 

Reminds me of this:

https://xkcd.com/810/ 

 

Edited by enderland07
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2 minutes ago, Botcha said:

How about removing RNG all together. The cream will rise to the top and the "less than stellar" players will (hopefully) leave 

You mean dispersion? Reward good accuracy and punish bad accuracy? 

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5 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Seriously, do you actually believe this? You have a huge forum crusade against in-game mods (including those sponsored by Wargaming itself).

mods have there place, that place is NOT in the likes of clan battles or ranked battles IF they want to be taken seriously.

 

 

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Just now, Botcha said:

How about removing RNG all together. The cream will rise to the top and the "less than stellar" players will (hopefully) leave 

Then the game will die since casual gamers make up the bulk of players.  I consider myself casual since I just play for fun - a few games before work and before I go to bed.

There is admittedly a lot of RNG in World of Warships, but that's pretty similar to other competitive games (aside from the detonation, which is a mechanic I think needs to go).  For example, setting fires over and over again is pretty dependent on flags and chance.  Some ships can just get one fire, put it out and just move on while others can get fires over and over again - this coming from somebody who loves his Kutuzov.

Also, World of Warships does have a bit of a learning curve - more so than games like World of Tanks.  You have to pay attention to a lot - ship speed, ship direction, guns, proper aiming, shot leading and more.

 

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1 minute ago, b101uk said:

mods have there place, that place is NOT in the likes of clan battles or ranked battles IF they want to be taken seriously.

 

 

Do you take ranked and clan battles seriously? 

Obviously no from your comments about it. Your opinion is hereby discarded. 

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26 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

So over the course of my 2.5 years of playing this game, things have changed dramatically. It seemed when I started that skill was valued. The game rewarded skilled play. Lately it seems that WG is going away from that. Taking things away from segments of the player base that they already had could end up alienating those segments. If Co-op had full xp and credit rewards and mission availability and then were nerfed to what it is now, imagine the outcry. Instead we see steady requests for improvement to it. If it were things that were taken away from them, then an outcry would be expected.


When I started WG rewarded good play in ranked battles. The major rewards (flags and ships) were only obtained by players achieving rank 1 multiple seasons. Later, clan battles came along and players had to achieve the Stalingrad flags with 30 wins in Typhoon. As was to be expected players that could not achieve these rewards have complained steadily about not having access to these exclusive rewards for skill and/or determination. The main argument I have seen was that other games have cosmetic rewards instead of exclusive vehicles or gear. These players advocated that everyone should have access to these rewards and skilled/determined players get cosmetics. I started as a player who could not achieve rank 1 and not once in those early seasons for me did I complain about skilled players having exclusive access to reward ships. You can search my history if you want. I remember posting that, yes I wanted to get a Flint, but I didn't want everyone to be able to get it. I wanted it to be an 
accomplishment. I wanted it to be an achievement, both for those players that were able to get it then and for players that would strive to achieve it in the future, whether or not I was ever able to achieve it.


Well now, they have gotten their wish. Steel was implemented and available at lower levels of both ranked and clan battles. Now they are giving it away for co-op wins and campaigns. Shoot, they even took away the exclusive pirate flags and are implementing emblems that can be achieved by any player without every touching ranked 1 or Typhoon league (don't quote me on that, it was a while since I saw the details for them)


Hey, all this is OK, WG can do whatever they want, but they do it at the risk of alienating players and causing a lack of participation in game modes where skill was rewarded.Same thing with the CV rework. CV's needed fixed, not many people are going to argue against that. 
But they have basically gotten this rework dumbed down to the point that they are saying that the player base is too stupid to be able to trigger their own consumables. Like we can't pay attention to 2 things at the same time.... and hit other buttons. CV was a super skilled class with a lot of the most skilled players in the game playing it, and WG is taking any skill away from it.


Yet with both of these situations it just seems that WG is trying to push away the skilled playerbase. And at the same time, I hear from other segments on how they want to push more competitive play. 
(player organized tournaments, etc)

 
So 2 questions:
Why does it seem that WG is trying to push away and penalize skilled players? 


Where are the members of the player base now that argued for giving everyone access to the exclusive ships and give skilled players new cosmetic rewards? You got your access to the exclusive ships and are proving now that you didn't actually care about the second half of your argument and are a hypocrite. If you actually cared about your argument, why aren't you out advocating for exclusive 
cosmetic rewards for skilled players in ranked and clan battles? They have taken away exclusive ships and cosmetic rewards and replaced it with nothing for skilled players. Did you not actually believe your own argument? 

I'm all for exclusive cosmetic rewards. What if you won ranked and sailed around in a shiny gold camo? Or could display four or five pirate flags at the same time? Or had an emblem of a skull on your hull for each time you ranked out? I think that would be cool

Exclusive ships, not for that. Anything that gives an in game combat advantage has to be widely available. I feel that by giving powerful exclusive ships or modules to the best players widens the skill gap and in the end drives players from the game. Churn is very high in this game, they need to address it and I suspect this is part of that. 

I'm not for the steel economy. I think the steel and coal economy was a mistake. But it's what we have to work with now. 

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Just now, Wombatmetal said:

I'm all for exclusive cosmetic rewards. What if you won ranked and sailed around in a shiny gold camo? Or could display four or five pirate flags at the same time? Or had an emblem of a skull on your hull for each time you ranked out? I think that would be cool

Exclusive ships, not for that. Anything that gives an in game combat advantage has to be widely available. I feel that by giving powerful exclusive ships or modules to the best players widens the skill gap and in the end drives players from the game. Churn is very high in this game, they need to address it and I suspect this is part of that. 

I'm not for the steel economy. I think the steel and coal economy was a mistake. But it's what we have to work with now. 

So go post threads advocating for it until you get it. Just like the myriad of threads that were posted about removing the exclusivity of ship rewards from rank 1 and typhoon players. 

But I doubt we will see that, because after people get what they really want, they could care less about the compromise they asked for to show that they weren't just self centered. 

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16 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

but they do it at the risk of alienating players and causing a lack of participation in game modes where skill was rewarded

I am happy that I can get steel from other than Ranked and Clan battles. I was feeling alienated because I want to own all of the ships and would not be able to. This, I feel, is WG's response to all of the ship collectors playing the game. I see no reason that WG would alienate the people who drop a lot of cash their way. Now they just need to make a way for us to get the Alpha, Beta and ST ships. I don't foresee a lot of people acquiring the steel ships for a long time, even with the steel campaigns and snowflakes. You may not think that I am entitled to be able to acquire these ships, on the other hand I don't think just because you play Ranked and Clan battles that you should be entitled to have exclusive ships. I can maybe, see the Alpha, Beta and ST ships being exclusive, how ever I still don't see why, just because I didn't start playing the game soon enough to get in on the testing, that certain ships should be unobtainable. If I had been in on the testing and was a supertester, I would not care if the reward ships were available to all players as long as they earned it, either by working for it or by spending money on the game, which of course is how it stays running. Why do Casino's reward Whales? because it makes them money.

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23 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

....

I can best answer your question by offering you a Beatles song (OK, they covered the song but I can't remember who, plus the Beatles' version is better).

Adapting a bit for the situation at hand (John Lennon on the lead, Paul & George on the backup vocals):

The song: MONEY

"The best skillz in Wows are free,

But those skillz don't make a buck for Dub-a-ya Gee!!!

Now give me mo-o-oney! (That's...what I want!)

That's what I want!  (That's...what I want!)

That's what I waaa-a-aaant, oh, yeah!

That's what I want!

 

Your talent gives me a thrill,

But your talent don't pay my bills!

Now give me mo-o-oney! (That's...what I want!)

That's what I want!  (That's...what I want!)

That's what I waaa-a-aaant, oh, yeah!

That's what I want!

 

Money don't get everything, it's true!

What it don't get I can't use!

Now give me mo-o-oney! (That's...what I want!)

That's what I want!  (That's...what I want!)

That's what I waaa-a-aaant, oh, yeah!

That's what I want!

..."

 

Offered up by relatively unskilled player who knows the score.

 

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1 minute ago, Sovereigndawg said:

I am happy that I can get steel from other than Ranked and Clan battles. I was feeling alienated because I want to own all of the ships and would not be able to. This, I feel, is WG's response to all of the ship collectors playing the game. I see no reason that WG would alienate the people who drop a lot of cash their way. Now they just need to make a way for us to get the Alpha, Beta and ST ships. I don't foresee a lot of people acquiring the steel ships for a long time, even with the steel campaigns and snowflakes. You may not think that I am entitled to be able to acquire these ships, on the other hand I don't think just because you play Ranked and Clan battles that you should be entitled to have exclusive ships. I can maybe, see the Alpha, Beta and ST ships being exclusive, how ever I still don't see why, just because I didn't start playing the game soon enough to get in on the testing, that certain ships should be unobtainable. If I had been in on the testing and was a supertester, I would not care if the reward ships were available to all players as long as they earned it, either by working for it or by spending money on the game, which of course is how it stays running. Why do Casino's reward Whales? because it makes them money.

It's the changing of rules and conditions that causes the problems and alienation.

If WG hadn't had exclusive ships from the start, this would be a non issue. But they wanted a semi competitive scene and to do that you need incentive. They put the incentives out there and now they are taking away the incentives, one at a time. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Do you take ranked and clan battles seriously? 

Obviously no from your comments about it. Your opinion is hereby discarded. 

your only discarding it because you have NO answer, given for ANY competitive gaming to be adjudged the merits of skill of the participants there MUST be a level playing field to start with.

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Just now, b101uk said:

your only discarding it because you have NO answer, given for ANY competitive gaming to be adjudged the merits of skill of the participants there MUST be a level playing field to start with.

Guess what, there are purists in the game who are way better than me while I am using a few mods and there are players in this game that couldn't win with vision hacks and aimbots. 

The answer is that it is a level playing field in that everyone is allowed to use sanctioned mods. If you don't want to, fine. But you can. 

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19 minutes ago, Botcha said:

How about removing RNG all together. The cream will rise to the top and the "less than stellar" players will (hopefully) leave 

What do you think the side effects of removing RNG would be?  Try to think about the game and what it would be like with no RNG.

(Hint: cruisers would cease to be viable)

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