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Gunga_Dinner

What in the .... How does this happen????

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There I was, going along, playing Tier II as I start to grind the Panasia DDs and I am in the Longjiang and my second battle ends up being a 2v2 battle.  One DD and one CA a side.  Good enough, I stick close to my cruiser, lay smoke when the bad guys appear, torpedo and sink the enemy CA, get First Blood and Devestating Strike on him.  The red DD cuts for our base, but I am already in his base.  The Friendly CA engages the red DD and gets sunk.  Now it is just the two DDs, I am at full health and he is pretty beat up.  We're in each other's base, but I am far ahead in cap points so he has to come after me.  He charges, we cat and mouse, he misses me and I sink him.  YAY!  Win for the home team!  And I am obviously the MVP of the match, did the most damage, sinking the entire enemy fleet, two honorable awards, getting the most cap points, laying down smoke for my CA, what more could I have done?  I even have 9k potential damage from them shooting at me and dodged every shot.  I am smiling and feeling good as the score screens come up and..... What the heck?  I came in second!!!!  I don't know how this is possible, but somehow the CA scored better than I did!

Please, please, can someone explain to me how this is possible?  It was good for a laugh if nothing else.

 

Long01.jpg

Long02.jpg

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Long04.jpg

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There was nobody else in the queue and somebody waited the max time do server put all available ship in the game

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No one really knows how the point/xp system works but I know most kills doesnt guarantee you the top spot. If your team mate capped and got a fair amount of damage, that may well put him first 

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The answer for that is rather simple.

While you did score both kills, percentage wise you were below what your teammate did. You dealt 74% of the Chikuma‘s HP in damage, and 5% of the Storozhevoi‘s HP in damage. Given how both were sunk and assuming that the enemy team did not start teamkilling each other, your teammate dealt 26% of the Chikuma‘s HP in damage and 95% of the Storozhevoi‘s. So you dealt in total 79%, with your teammate dealing 121%.

For the XP calculations the relative damage matters a lot, and in that aspect your teammate dealt ~1.5 times the damage you dealt. 

The Potential damage of 9,000 isn‘t all that much. I will assume in total six of the Storozhevoi‘s HE shells were counted towards that, which isn‘t a lot.

You started capping, but it only counts towards your XP if the capture gets completed. Since all enemy ships were destroyed before you capped out, the capping points had no influence.

@Gunga_Dinner hope that helps a bit.

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You both shared the Chikuma's HP but your teammate got the vast majority of the Storozhevoi. XP is based on the percentage of HP that you get from a ship, not the total. Doing 90% to a DD earns more XP than doing 70% to a cruiser. Kills only give a small amount f bonus XP, not enough to counter the fact that your teammate took 90% of the DD.

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That is all well and good, but my teammate didn't survive the battle and regardless of relative damage done, didn't win it.  So.

 

Lesson learned, next time, don't kill them, just damage everyone and then wait for the battle to end.

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13 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

but my teammate didn't survive the battle

Doesn't matter.

13 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

 and regardless of relative damage done, didn't win it. 

Yes. He did. Removing enemy ships wins battles. He removed more of the enemy ships than you did. Just because you got the finishing blow doesn't matter. He removed the hitpoints.

13 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

Lesson learned, next time, don't kill them, just damage everyone and then wait for the battle to end.

With that attitude, please be on the red team from me. Thank you.

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He woudn't have won if I hadn't lived.  He was dead regardless of the damage he did.

I take your point, scoring damage is more important than living or killing ships.  I will focus on farming damage.

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6 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

He woudn't have won if I hadn't lived.  He was dead regardless of the damage he did.

I take your point, scoring damage is more important than living or killing ships.  I will focus on farming damage.

And you may not have won it had he not done a significant amount of damage to one of the ships for you.

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18 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

He woudn't have won if I hadn't lived.  He was dead regardless of the damage he did.

I take your point, scoring damage is more important than living or killing ships.  I will focus on farming damage.

Damage isn't the end all, be all.

 

I've played my Montana and get about 60k damage.  My 2 Division mates in DPM Cruisers rack up about 140k damage a piece.  They were farming damage off BBs.  I was killing Destroyers, most of my damage was against them.  Yet I get Top Score on the team despite my Div mates having twice over my Damage performance.  I was also playing the objectives and resetting caps, etc.

 

Doing good damage helps, but other things happen to get you to place high in BaseXPs on the team.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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No, I am confident that we still would've won.  The red CA died a  minute or two into the game and only got two salvos off.  I actually hit the red CA with four torps, but only two were needed, so even if the other fellow hadn't hit the CA, I still would have killed it.  The red DD was spotted by me and location know cap and I out detected him so he couldn't have ambushed me.

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23 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

He woudn't have won if I hadn't lived.  He was dead regardless of the damage he did.

And you might not have survived had the Chikua and Storozhevoi had enough hitpoints left to just trade DPM with you. You both helped the team win.

23 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

I take your point, scoring damage is more important than living or killing ships.  I will focus on farming damage.

Scoring damage is more important, but it's about the quality of the damage, and not to the exclusion of getting kills. Removing guns from the enemy team wins the game. To do that, you first need to do damage to them - after all, it's hard removing a Yamato's guns from the match without first removing his 97k+ hitpoints. But if you have a kill shot on something, by all means, do take it.

Quality of damage is a bit more difficult to explain. If we take the aforementioned Yamato for example, he has a vast pool of hitpoints and a powerful heal ability. Just burning him for 50k damage isn't 'quality damage'; he can just heal that back over time and have almost his full amount of hitpoints again. On the other hand, hitting him for 20k in the citadel is quality damage, since he can only heal a part of that back. Another example is that farming 80k off a Yamato that's on the other end of the map when there's a 10k hp destroyer capping your base, the person who does the 10k to the destroyer does a lot higher quality damage than the one farming 80k off a Yamato.

Damage and kills are both important. Damage more, but 50k quality damage is a lot more valuable than 100k irrelevant damage.

In the end, you have to remove guns from the enemy team to win, and you have to remove hitpoints before you can remove guns.

Hope this helps.

<Edit> @HazeGrayUnderway's post is a very good example of quality of damage. His div mates farmed damage off of BBs, which is useful, but not as much as chunking destroyers for most if not all of their HP, and contesting objectives.

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25 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

He woudn't have won if I hadn't lived.  He was dead regardless of the damage he did.

I take your point, scoring damage is more important than living or killing ships.  I will focus on farming damage.

Don't do that unless you're aiming to he the top ship on the losing team.

I've seen many games thrown away by players who wanted to get one more ship sunk or a few more points of damage. I've also seen games carried on the back of players that have low base EXP, just because they ran and let us win on points, or got behind the enemy team and lit them all up for us.

And don't confuse base EXP with plays that will win games. It works most of the time, but there is no computer program in existence that can accurately tell what won a game. For example, spotting wins games, but it is incredibly hard to accurately award it, as ship tend to shoot when spotted, so it isn't always rewarded.

Just do what you can to win the game, instead of trying to boost base EXP. There isn't much more you can do to boost it than to win the game, in any case.

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45 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

He woudn't have won if I hadn't lived.  He was dead regardless of the damage he did.

I take your point, scoring damage is more important than living or killing ships.  I will focus on farming damage.

I would focus on winning.  If you farm a ton of damage, but still lose you will get a fraction of xp, credits, etc that you would've got with a far lesser game that you win.

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35 minutes ago, Lert said:

Yes. He did. Removing enemy ships wins battles. He removed more of the enemy ships than you did. Just because you got the finishing blow doesn't matter. He removed the hitpoints.

Okay, near as I can figure, there was a total of 26,500 health on the read team.  18,700 for the Chikuma and 7800 for the Storozhevoi.  I did 14,268 damage to the red fleet, or accounted for ~54% of the total damage done between my fleet mate and I.  But somehow, you're saying the 46% he did was worth more XP then my 54%.  That boggles the mind and to put it in your terms, I removed more hitpoints and removed more ships than he did without even taking into account who made the finishing blow.

I understand that there are many variables that go into the XP calculation and you can seldom be sure who did what in a battle and I have faith that overall, the system works well.  But in THIS particular case I think it got it wrong.  I can even believe that the situation was bizarre enough that the normal weighting that is done to calculate our base XP worked against me.  I understand it is what it is and it isn't going to change.

What I cannot for the life of me believe is that on a two person team, the one who didn't spot anyone, didn't cap, didn't kill, didn't survive, and inflicted less then half of the available damage on the red fleet contributed more to the win than I did.  In fact, the only measure he would've surpassed me on is "Defended" ribbons, but those were moot as I was already in the red base and ahead on capturing the base.  Perhaps that is the hardest part to understand.  We would've won by capturing their base had the CA not engaged the DD at all.  The fact he did engage the DD and sank it was meaningless to the overall outcome of the battle.  The battle was decided when the red CA was sunk and I was in their base ~30 seconds before the red DD entered ours.

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1 hour ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

He woudn't have won if I hadn't lived.  He was dead regardless of the damage he did.

I take your point, scoring damage is more important than living or killing ships.  I will focus on farming damage.

God damn do you have a massive ego. You were told why you were 2nd on the team, suck it up and deal with it. 

 

Let me summarize this for you: if there are two ships on the enemy team one worth 20K and the other worth 10. If you deal 10K to the first one and your ally does 9k to the other then the ally did more according to how the experience works. Period, end of story. 

 

And for the love of god stop being that one idiot who thinks kills and surviving is what matters. I've seen too many dead people get top of the team to be of your mindset

Edited by TheNargacuga

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7 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

Okay, near as I can figure, there was a total of 26,500 health on the read team.  18,700 for the Chikuma and 7800 for the Storozhevoi.  I did 14,268 damage to the red fleet, or accounted for ~54% of the total damage done between my fleet mate and I.  But somehow, you're saying the 46% he did was worth more XP then my 54%.  That boggles the mind and to put it in your terms, I removed more hitpoints and removed more ships than he did without even taking into account who made the finishing blow.

I understand that there are many variables that go into the XP calculation and you can seldom be sure who did what in a battle and I have faith that overall, the system works well.  But in THIS particular case I think it got it wrong.  I can even believe that the situation was bizarre enough that the normal weighting that is done to calculate our base XP worked against me.  I understand it is what it is and it isn't going to change.

What I cannot for the life of me believe is that on a two person team, the one who didn't spot anyone, didn't cap, didn't kill, didn't survive, and inflicted less then half of the available damage on the red fleet contributed more to the win than I did.  In fact, the only measure he would've surpassed me on is "Defended" ribbons, but those were moot as I was already in the red base and ahead on capturing the base.  Perhaps that is the hardest part to understand.  We would've won by capturing their base had the CA not engaged the DD at all.  The fact he did engage the DD and sank it was meaningless to the overall outcome of the battle.  The battle was decided when the red CA was sunk and I was in their base ~30 seconds before the red DD entered ours.

22zq01.jpg

 

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15 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

But somehow, you're saying the 46% he did was worth more XP then my 54%.

Yes. Because you're entirely focused on damage totals. You can't see past your own obsession with damage totals. What matters for XP income is damage percentage per target. You did 74% to the Chikuma and 5% to the Storozhevoi. That means that your teammate did 26% to the Chikuma and 95% to the Storozhevoi. He got an unholy aft ton of XP for doing 95% to the Storozhevoi, while you got less XP for doing 74% to the Chikuma, regardless of damage totals.

Surviving doesn't matter for XP totals. There is a small bonus for surviving, but it's a very small bonus. Finishing a target off doesn't matter for XP totals. There is a small bonus for finishing a target, but nowhere near enough to make up the difference between 95% + 26% of even tiered targets that your teammate did vs 5% + 74% of even tiered targets that you did.

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24 minutes ago, TheNargacuga said:

God damn do you have a massive ego. You were told why you were 2nd on the team, suck it up and deal with it. 

 

Let me summarize this for you: if there are two ships on the enemy team one worth 20K and the other worth 10. If you deal 10K to the first one and your ally does 9k to the other then the ally did more according to how the experience works. Period, end of story. 

 

And for the love of god stop being that one idiot who thinks kills and surviving is what matters. I've seen too many dead people get top of the team to be of your mindset

What does ego have to do with it?  I don't think I am a stellar player and this seems to me to be a somewhat unusual situation is all.

20 minutes ago, Lert said:

Yes. Because you're entirely focused on damage totals. You can't see past your own obsession with damage totals. What matters for XP income is damage percentage per target. You did 74% to the Chikuma and 5% to the Storozhevoi. That means that your teammate did 26% to the Chikuma and 95% to the Storozhevoi. He got an unholy aft ton of XP for doing 95% to the Storozhevoi, while you got less XP for doing 74% to the Chikuma, regardless of damage totals.

Surviving doesn't matter for XP totals. There is a small bonus for surviving, but it's a very small bonus. Finishing a target off doesn't matter for XP totals. There is a small bonus for finishing a target, but nowhere near enough to make up the difference between 95% + 26% of even tiered targets that your teammate did vs 5% + 74% of even tiered targets that you did.

Yes, I understand everything you are saying and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it.  I have a much greater understanding of how XP is calculated, thank you for explaining it.  It would seem on the whole to be a fair and equitable system. I am sure that I have benefited from it in the past without even realizing it.  I am sure that it gave him even more XP since he was defending our base when he was engaging the red DD.

I also understand that in this somewhat unusual case.  My teammate did a fine job.  I still believe that formula rewarded the wrong person, that is all I am saying.  I am amused by it more than anything else, because I am sure it has favored me in the past without me even knowing it.  I wasn't trying to start anything and just wanted to share a laugh.  Perhaps if you could see the battle, you'd have a greater understanding of my perspective.

Thank you.

PS-  DD damage > BB damage.  interesting.

Edited by Gunga_Dinner
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1 minute ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

I still believe that formula rewarded the wrong person, that is all I am saying.

It's a flawed system, but it does its best. Like you said, it's a fair and equitable system .... most of the time.

2 minutes ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

PS-  DD damage > BB damage.  interesting.

Eh ... More like 50% to a same tier target = 50% to a same tier target. Every ship of the same tier is worth the same amount of XP, but DDs have far lower HP totals and BBs have repair. So doing 7500 to a 15k hp DD is worth as much as doing 30k hp to a 60k hp BB, as long as that BB doesn't heal back. But 7500 damage to a DD doesn't seem as much as 30k to a BB to the human mind.

PS, there is I think a 10% bonus per tier difference for damaging lower and higher tier ships. So doing 100% of a tier 8 ship in your tier 6 ship earns you 120% of the XP that ship is worth, while doing 100% of a T6 ship in your T8 ship only earns you 80% of the XP that ship is worth.

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2 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

The answer for that is rather simple.

While you did score both kills, percentage wise you were below what your teammate did. You dealt 74% of the Chikuma‘s HP in damage, and 5% of the Storozhevoi‘s HP in damage. Given how both were sunk and assuming that the enemy team did not start teamkilling each other, your teammate dealt 26% of the Chikuma‘s HP in damage and 95% of the Storozhevoi‘s. So you dealt in total 79%, with your teammate dealing 121%.

For the XP calculations the relative damage matters a lot, and in that aspect your teammate dealt ~1.5 times the damage you dealt. 

The Potential damage of 9,000 isn‘t all that much. I will assume in total six of the Storozhevoi‘s HE shells were counted towards that, which isn‘t a lot.

You started capping, but it only counts towards your XP if the capture gets completed. Since all enemy ships were destroyed before you capped out, the capping points had no influence.

@Gunga_Dinner hope that helps a bit.

Thanks, nice answer.  This particular case just highlighted some of the quirks of the calculation is all.

Keep your powder dry.  :Smile_Default:

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Your ally cruiser probably got up to 10 'DEFENDED' ribbons.

Those low tier ships saturate quite a bit..  especially DDs..   Maybe 50-60 hits on a saturated bow.

At T3,  I completely saturated an enemy Chikuma from bow to stern with HE.  And it was completely darkened so I couldn't do anymore damage.  I was making holes...  but not affecting the health.  My poor Variag couldn't kill it.

 

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Yep... I've had plenty of 20k dmg games at t9 where I've landed in first place on the winning team... spotting yields negligible rewards but coupled with caps, defense ribbons and 100% of the damage being dealt to dds goes a long way. 260k dmg sounds amazing till you realize its 1-2 healing kurfursts... 100k to dds can be a krakens worth of dds.

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

PS, there is I think a 10% bonus per tier difference for damaging lower and higher tier ships. So doing 100% of a tier 8 ship in your tier 6 ship earns you 120% of the XP that ship is worth, while doing 100% of a T6 ship in your T8 ship only earns you 80% of the XP that ship is worth.

Thanks for this information. I had read that there was a factor applied as to damage applied to differing tiers, but had not previously seeing a specific (even if estimated) factor.

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4 hours ago, Gunga_Dinner said:

Lesson learned, next time, don't kill them, just damage everyone and then wait for the battle to end.

Doing that when the match can still go either way is a gamble that you can switch gears and damage farm well enough to do 50% more damage than you normally would.

Lesser players do this right off the bat, because they don't have confidence in their ability to influence the win. Better players don't do it until the match hits the point that they aren't confident their greater ability can influence the win.

And that's if a player can even switch gears completely. 

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