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Destin65

The IJN is Back!! <3

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remodeling a heli carrier to take on multi role jets isn't really what I'd call a true carrier.:Smile_sceptic:

 

Personally I think the USN should offer to give/sell the IJDF the 2 kitty hawks currently mothballed. with a few upgrades they'd be perfect for the Japanese fleet operations. Though updating the ships (the reactors in particular) will be costly it would save millions maybe even billions for Japan int he long run.+ the JFK and the Kitty hawk would be spared from the scrape heap!:fish_book:

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42 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

remodeling a heli carrier to take on multi role jets isn't really what I'd call a true carrier.

It probably is when you have no real aircraft carriers, and haven't had for over 70 years.

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It's not surprising. The JMSDF have admitted previously thst the Izumos were designed with easy conversion to F35B light carriers in mind. The announcement of a conversion came way earlier than I expected though.

The Izumo class 'helicopter carrying destroyers' have a full load displacement of 27k tons. A far cry from the 65k-85k ton carriers China has or are building. At best the Izumos would be CVLs with a token force of F35Bs. These won't threaten China in the slightest.

41 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

remodeling a heli carrier to take on multi role jets isn't really what I'd call a true carrier.:Smile_sceptic:

 

Personally I think the USN should offer to give/sell the IJDF the 2 kitty hawks currently mothballed. with a few upgrades they'd be perfect for the Japanese fleet operations. Though updating the ships (the reactors in particular) will be costly it would save millions maybe even billions for Japan int he long run.+ the JFK and the Kitty hawk would be spared from the scrape heap!:fish_book:

What is it with you Americans that you're always advocating for other naval nations to buy your 50-60 year old cold war stuff? This same conversation happened when the QE class was being built. Japan has the expertise to build modern warships for their own needs, and their own ship building industry to protect.

The kitty hawks would also need 5 times the manpower to crew compared to the Izumos, which is unfeasible given that the JMSDF has a total of around 50,000 personel, and recruitment problems.

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To be fair to the IJN self defense force. They had carriers already, problem was because of restrictions/treaty/personal laws. It had to be a certain tonnage, without certain equipment, and cannot sail for a long distance.

One thing for sure, I dont want to spark a fire into the gasoline region of Asia. Their dedication to die with honor instead of surrendering is a formidable mentality that the US military is not prepared to face.  The last thing anyone wants is an arms race with neighbors in the region. 

Japan will do what Japan will due. I hope it doesn't spark unrest to the wrong direction. 

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The IJN is kaput with the end of WWII, the JMSDF is there instead.

This was expected.  Japan has long on board with getting the JSF and so it's pretty obvious they wanted naval aviation again.  Japan is one of the world leaders in military spending.  The region however has some troubled history.

 

Japan's Navy didn't just "come back."  It's been a significant naval power in the region for a very long time.

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8 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

It's not surprising. The JMSDF have admitted previously thst the Izumos were designed with easy conversion to F35B light carriers in mind. The announcement of a conversion came way earlier than I expected though.

The Izumo class 'helicopter carrying destroyers' have a full load displacement of 27k tons. A far cry from the 65k-85k ton carriers China has or are building. At best the Izumos would be CVLs with a token force of F35Bs. These won't threaten China in the slightest.

What is it with you Americans that you're always advocating for other naval nations to buy your 50-60 year old cold war stuff? This same conversation happened when the QE class was being built. Japan has the expertise to build modern warships for their own needs, and their own ship building industry to protect.

The kitty hawks would also need 5 times the manpower to crew compared to the Izumos, which is unfeasible given that the JMSDF has a total of around 50,000 personel, and recruitment problems.

it takes on average 5-10 years to design and build ships. modernising an older one is not only faster but can also be cheaper.:fish_book: Take Mexico for example, they just retired the last of their fletchers in 2013 and these ships were upgraded 6 times during their careers. Also do to the fletchers reliability, Mexico said they would be willing to either have older cold war American DDs be purchased (if avaliable) or would like buy ships made in the USA to fit their specifications.

Some countries don't mind hand-me-downs because they either lack the facilities to create their own defense weapons or see a cheaper and safe alternative to investing a large amount of money into defense when it could be spent on somthing like education or medical.:fish_aqua:

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On 12/19/2018 at 2:00 AM, BladedPheonix said:

remodeling a heli carrier to take on multi role jets isn't really what I'd call a true carrier.:Smile_sceptic:

 

Personally I think the USN should offer to give/sell the IJDF the 2 kitty hawks currently mothballed. with a few upgrades they'd be perfect for the Japanese fleet operations. Though updating the ships (the reactors in particular) will be costly it would save millions maybe even billions for Japan int he long run.+ the JFK and the Kitty hawk would be spared from the scrape heap!:fish_book:

And what reactors might those be?

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On 12/19/2018 at 3:00 AM, BladedPheonix said:

remodeling a heli carrier to take on multi role jets isn't really what I'd call a true carrier.:Smile_sceptic:

Personally I think the USN should offer to give/sell the IJDF the 2 kitty hawks currently mothballed. with a few upgrades they'd be perfect for the Japanese fleet operations. Though updating the ships (the reactors in particular) will be costly it would save millions maybe even billions for Japan int he long run.+ the JFK and the Kitty hawk would be spared from the scrape heap!:fish_book:

No reactors on the Kitty Hawks.  I don't think they're in the greatest condition anymore, and I doubt Congress would just allow one to be sold even to an ally, especially given the political implications that would have with China (it would posture them as an enemy for sure). 

Besides, operating a real carrier even like the Kitty Hawk is a whole 'nother level of commitment and expertise than operating a refitted helicopter carrier that can house a couple of F-35B's.  When Japan is ready, they'll build their own carriers.

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17 hours ago, Ranari said:

No reactors on the Kitty Hawks.  I don't think they're in the greatest condition anymore, and I doubt Congress would just allow one to be sold even to an ally, especially given the political implications that would have with China (it would posture them as an enemy for sure). 

Besides, operating a real carrier even like the Kitty Hawk is a whole 'nother level of commitment and expertise than operating a refitted helicopter carrier that can house a couple of F-35B's.  When Japan is ready, they'll build their own carriers.

good point. maybe we could give them blue print data then?:cap_hmm:

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15 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

good point. maybe we could give them blue print data then?:cap_hmm:

I'm quite sure  the Japanese would come up with something more efficient than the USN operates. 5K or so crew probably doesn't fit in their budget, especially if they want more than one (and to ensure they have one, they'll need 2 or 3).

Might be worth the US Navy going to something like that eventually (build enough of them so that production makes them cheaper, and use them for UAV's and other roles that you want something CV like somewhere, but don't want to invest in sending a full blown CVN group.)

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9 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

I'm quite sure  the Japanese would come up with something more efficient than the USN operates. 5K or so crew probably doesn't fit in their budget, especially if they want more than one (and to ensure they have one, they'll need 2 or 3).

Might be worth the US Navy going to something like that eventually (build enough of them so that production makes them cheaper, and use them for UAV's and other roles that you want something CV like somewhere, but don't want to invest in sending a full blown CVN group.)

no i ment so they could use it as a base to design their own ship, not copy it.:Smile_unsure: on average it takes about 2-3 years to design a ship and another 3-5 to build it. if we gave them blue prints of previous cvs such as the kitty hawk or Enterprise (1950's one not the WW2 one) it could be a sorta stop gap because they haven't built any since 1945. this would  save Japan  time and money in the long run because they will know what works and what doesn't.:fish_book:

 

take the USAF for example. after WW2 ended we used a ton of German blueprints for planes and rockets and by 1947's korean war we had some of the best jets fielded thanks to that data.  in fact the B52 bomber was influenced by the horton jet project:Smile_great: Russia did the same ting with many of their first and 2nd generation jets as well. that's why the early migs and sabers looked so simulair, they were basically using the same blue prints taken form Germany!

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7 hours ago, BladedPheonix said:

no i ment so they could use it as a base to design their own ship, not copy it.:Smile_unsure: on average it takes about 2-3 years to design a ship and another 3-5 to build it. if we gave them blue prints of previous cvs such as the kitty hawk or Enterprise (1950's one not the WW2 one) it could be a sorta stop gap because they haven't built any since 1945. this would  save Japan  time and money in the long run because they will know what works and what doesn't.:fish_book:

 

take the USAF for example. after WW2 ended we used a ton of German blueprints for planes and rockets and by 1947's korean war we had some of the best jets fielded thanks to that data.  in fact the B52 bomber was influenced by the horton jet project:Smile_great: Russia did the same ting with many of their first and 2nd generation jets as well. that's why the early migs and sabers looked so simulair, they were basically using the same blue prints taken form Germany!

Between the large deck helicopter carriers the Japanese have built recently, and the WWII CV's, Japan has a pretty good idea how to build carriers. There's nothing advanced about US Navy CV's that would get shared in any case, building big is something the Japanese can already do, and the electronics would either be classified and not exported, or something they have probably already use. Japan would be better off consulting the British, as they're in a similar situation budget wise. Big US Navy super-carriers may look impressive and sound cool, but they are more an impressive exercise in logistics and resources than anything innovative.

Japan's biggest problem will be to develop the skills for operating large deck aircraft carriers, which they haven't done since 1945. To that end, Japan's upgrading some DDH's to operate F-35B's, they're gonna take them to RIMPAC and participate in other exercises, and they're going to rebuild that skill set. Sounds to me like they're already going in the right direction.

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I figure Japan will build carriers to suit their needs and performance criteria.

That they'll build them "in house" makes sense, too. 
They'll use metric sized parts and won't have to retro-fit components to fit a used U.S. Navy carrier with inch-pattern fittings.
The hull design will be modern (to deal with modern weapons) and to benefit from lessons learned by Japan and Japan's allies via the ships that have been in service for the past several decades.

Will Japan build nuclear-powered ships?
I suppose they could, if they wanted to.  They have nuclear fueled electrical power generation plants.
But, perhaps they're concerned that Gojira (a.k.a. Godzilla) will be tempted to eat nuclear powered ships?  ;-)

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