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americantiger

Player Skill in Higher Tier Matches

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It seems in my experiences lately at higher tier matches in World of Warships, I often see many players on my team commit serious mistakes that really shouldn't even be prevalent at that tier i.e. not supporting your allies, refusing to push into the cap, bickering with allies telling them to do everything they seemingly cannot. None of this makes any sense to me and this is something that is not just unique to World of Warships, all other games with a similar premise seem to have this problem. While in some circumstances this can be attributed to new players buying the highest tier premium vehicle they see (a bad idea in general allowing the newest players the ability to buy their way into high tier games), oftentimes those who have grinded out to get the top tier vehicles seem to be committing mistakes they really shouldn't if they've made it that far. I understand the occasional one-off instance, everyone has their bad days, however in my experience it's been happening at a rate that shouldn't really be acceptable for high tier gameplay. Many of these guys are taking excellent ships and wasting their potential by not using them properly. I've had instances where I've gone to try and capture a point only for the rest of my team to be miles behind me not supporting the effort to actually win the match. There are also those instances where players needlessly throw their ships away especially when the match was as good as won and those mistakes end up costing my team the match. In my opinion, the rate at which these instances seem to happen at high tiers is too high for what it's worth. At that tier, provided you made it that far, you should have at least a basic understanding of how to play the game properly, what to do and what not to do. That is not what I often see at higher tier matches, and while some of these moments if taken in moderation can provide some rather humorous circumstances, it honestly seems to happen too often for the game's own good. I do see why this may be the case as well as a possible solution though. It seems that those who make it to high tiers and are still seemingly unaware of how to play the game right aren't taking the advice given to them via guides on YouTube and the like, simply because they may not have seen any of them or aren't aware of them. The guides that the game itself provides are also in all honestly insufficient and outdated for what they're supposed to be. Many of the in-game guides only provide general tips on what to do and what not to do, and I personally doubt that many are even aware that there is a way to access these in game guides.

My solution to get players at higher tiers to the skill level they should be at if they were to make it that far would be to introduce a series of new guides that unlock as you progress down the line of ships of your choosing, but instead of being very basic guides like what we currently have, make them far more in depth and easily accessible in game and keep them up to date as the game progresses into the foreseeable future, because as I've already stated, a lot of the official WoWS guides that are available in game are outdated, dating back to the days of the closed beta. In addition, give the players some sort of incentive to listen to these in-depth guides that are easily accessible in the main game client, such as a limited amount of gold or premium time. Make these guides teach things like workable strategies in various situations you may find yourself in at various tiers and vehicles and how to deal with them effectively, show them recommended skills for individual ships, teach them what to do in various gamemodes and how to work together with other teammates, even if they're not divisioned up with anyone. As for new players foolishly buying high tier premiums thinking it'll make them unstoppable, I feel a good solution to this problem would be to restrict the tier of premiums you can potentially purchase based on the maximum tier ship you have. For example if you were to have a tier 5 ship in the main tech tree, you'd only be able to buy premium ships that are at rank 6 or lower, and the tier of premium ships is not the determining factor on what other premium ships you may be able to buy, but rather the tier of the ships you have in the main research trees. This way, we can get people to learn both the basic and advanced aspects of the game while they're grinding out the main research trees at their leisure, instead of having them skip over important lessons or buying high tier premiums and ruining the game for those who took the time to learn the hard way on how to play the game. This way I feel with people able to learn the ropes of the game from the in-game client the battles will be more enjoyable even at higher tiers with players who know what they're doing on both teams making for a unique, challenging experience that is enjoyable at the same time, with everyone doing their part in trying to win the match, and while not every battle will be successful, the game at higher tiers will be far more enjoyable this way than it is right now. Let me know what you guys think about this idea of a series of in-game guides which provide an in-depth look at the various mechanics of the game at the various tiers and strategies on how to use each particular ship to the best of its potential that are up to date and change as the game changes. Hopefully with enough support, this idea can reach the developers of the game and can be implemented to improve the overall state of the game, because it is not so much the ship that determines the outcome of these battles, it's the people commanding these ships that really counts in the end. Strive to succeed where you can succeed, and strive to improve when you fail. Good luck in the seas of World of Warships!

Edited by americantiger
Streamlining the ability for people to clearly read what I intend to bring forward
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Note that what I just said above mainly applies to Random Battles in World of Warships, perhaps the most commonly played gamemode in the game, yet this in some cases can apply to a few instances in tier X Ranked Battles. I also understand that there are some good if not excellent players at those tiers, but in my experience the majority of players I have encountered a lot of players at higher tiers who really shouldn't be committing the mistakes they're committing. 

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In the future I would advocate most earnestly breaking that into paragraphs.  The short answer is that the game is mature enough at this point that plenty of folks have failed their way to the top just by sheer volume of matches.

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They would never do this from a business stand point.

You are asking them to take time/money to develop something, that has no actual guarantee of results. 

At the same time you are asking them to close an avenue of revenue. No company would do this unless, there was some type of actual law being broken or some real ethical/moral dilemma. 

Edit: Also just consider random, random. Its like random CS GO games. random Hearthstone games. random Battlefield games. Just expect players to do crazy things, and try to hold your own.

Edited by Octavian_of_Roma

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11 minutes ago, americantiger said:

It seems in my experiences lately at higher tier matches in World of Warships, I often see many players on my team commit serious mistakes that really shouldn't even be prevalent at that tier i.e. not supporting your allies, refusing to push into the cap, bickering with allies telling them to do everything they seemingly cannot. None of this makes any sense to me and this is something that is not just unique to World of Warships, all other games with a similar premise seem to have this problem. While in some circumstances this can be attributed to new players buying the highest tier premium vehicle they see (a bad idea in general allowing the newest players the ability to buy their way into high tier games), oftentimes those who have grinded out to get the top tier vehicles seem to be committing mistakes they really shouldn't if they've made it that far. I understand the occasional one-off instance, everyone has their bad days, however in my experience it's been happening at a rate that shouldn't really be acceptable for high tier gameplay. Many of these guys are taking excellent ships and wasting their potential by not using them properly. I've had instances where I've gone to try and capture a point only for the rest of my team to be miles behind me not supporting the effort to actually win the match. There are also those instances where players needlessly throw their ships away especially when the match was as good as won and those mistakes end up costing my team the match. In my opinion, the rate at which these instances seem to happen at high tiers is too high for what it's worth. At that tier, provided you made it that far, you should have at least a basic understanding of how to play the game properly, what to do and what not to do. That is not what I often see at higher tier matches, and while some of these moments if taken in moderation can provide some rather humorous circumstances, it honestly seems to happen too often for the game's own good. I do see why this may be the case as well as a possible solution though. It seems that those who make it to high tiers and are still seemingly unaware of how to play the game right aren't taking the advice given to them via guides on YouTube and the like, simply because they may not have seen any of them or aren't aware of them. The guides that the game itself provides are also in all honestly insufficient and outdated for what they're supposed to be. Many of the in-game guides only provide general tips on what to do and what not to do, and I personally doubt that many are even aware that there is a way to access these in game guides. My solution to get players at higher tiers to the skill level they should be at if they were to make it that far would be to introduce a series of new guides that unlock as you progress down the line of ships of your choosing, but instead of being very basic guides like what we currently have, make them far more in depth and easily accessible in game and keep them up to date as the game progresses into the foreseeable future, because as I've already stated, a lot of the official WoWS guides that are available in game are outdated, dating back to the days of the closed beta. In addition, give the players some sort of incentive to listen to these in-depth guides that are easily accessible in the main game client, such as a limited amount of gold or premium time. Make these guides teach things like workable strategies in various situations you may find yourself in at various tiers and vehicles and how to deal with them effectively, show them recommended skills for individual ships, teach them what to do in various gamemodes and how to work together with other teammates, even if they're not divisioned up with anyone. As for new players foolishly buying high tier premiums thinking it'll make them unstoppable, I feel a good solution to this problem would be to restrict the tier of premiums you can potentially purchase based on the maximum tier ship you have. For example if you were to have a tier 5 ship in the main tech tree, you'd only be able to buy premium ships that are at rank 6 or lower, and the tier of premium ships is not the determining factor on what other premium ships you may be able to buy, but rather the tier of the ships you have in the main research trees. This way, we can get people to learn both the basic and advanced aspects of the game while they're grinding out the main research trees at their leisure, instead of having them skip over important lessons or buying high tier premiums and ruining the game for those who took the time to learn the hard way on how to play the game. This way I feel with people able to learn the ropes of the game from the in-game client the battles will be more enjoyable even at higher tiers with players who know what they're doing on both teams making for a unique, challenging experience that is enjoyable at the same time, with everyone doing their part in trying to win the match, and while not every battle will be successful, the game at higher tiers will be far more enjoyable this way than it is right now. Let me know what you guys think about this idea of a series of in-game guides which provide an in-depth look at the various mechanics of the game at the various tiers and strategies on how to use each particular ship to the best of its potential that are up to date and change as the game changes. Hopefully with enough support, this idea can reach the developers of the game and can be implemented to improve the overall state of the game, because it is not so much the ship that determines the outcome of these battles, it's the people commanding these ships that really counts in the end. Strive to succeed where you can succeed, and strive to improve when you fail. Good luck in the seas of World of Warships!

Short answer is "Nope, just nope".

Honestly I started playing to check it out for a co-worker and my "Report" about the game was "Game is great but players suck". The honest truth is probably 2/3rds of the player base has no idea how fleets move much less fight. This is further brought to the forefront because the game's mechanics support play that is counter intuitive. And that's not including how the reward system works.

 

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7 minutes ago, Octavian_of_Roma said:

They would never do this from a business stand point.

You are asking them to take time/money to develop something, that has no actual guarantee of results. 

At the same time you are asking them to close an avenue of revenue. No company would do this unless, there was some type of actual law being broken or some real ethical/moral dilemma. 

Edit: Also just consider random, random. Its like random CS GO games. random Hearthstone games. random Battlefield games. Just expect players to do crazy things, and try to hold your own.

My point is regarding the top tier matches in random battles. If you've managed to grind your way that far, you should have at least a basic understanding of how the game works and what to do. Unfortunately in my experience that seems to be rather lacking in the teammates I have seen. As for what you said regarding CS GO and Battlefield and the like, I honestly am not sure you can make a comparison between somthing like WoWS and the games you brought up as they are completely different breeds of games.

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2 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

Short answer is "Nope, just nope".

Honestly I started playing to check it out for a co-worker and my "Report" about the game was "Game is great but players suck". The honest truth is probably 2/3rds of the player base has no idea how fleets move much less fight. This is further brought to the forefront because the game's mechanics support play that is counter intuitive. And that's not including how the reward system works.

 

Which is why I suggested adding in a series of in-game guides to give people a chance to learn the ropes of the game

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2 minutes ago, americantiger said:

My point is regarding the top tier matches in random battles. If you've managed to grind your way that far, you should have at least a basic understanding of how the game works and what to do. Unfortunately in my experience that seems to be rather lacking in the teammates I have seen. As for what you said regarding CS GO and Battlefield and the like, I honestly am not sure you can make a comparison between somthing like WoWS and the games you brought up as they are completely different breeds of games.

There is no guarantee those tutorials do anything at all to improve that. That is your expectation, but it is certainly not the reality as you are well aware of. Tier 10 doesnt mean the "best. most dedicated, well informed" in this game.

Random is just random, its the same mode as casual in those other games. And you can directly compare them. Random t10 in wows, 1 player starts driving backwards at the start of match, 3 players are afk. Your DDs yolo in solo 1by1, your cruisers do the same, your BBs sit back sniping. Random CS GO game, 2 players afk, 1 RU player blasting RU rap, your AWPers sitting at the back of the map doing nothing, 2 players yolo in and die immediatley. You can directly compare them.

You need to play Clan Battles if you want any type of organization and relative faith your team knows what they are doing.

Random is random no matter the tier. Clan Battles is what you want, if you want to ensure your team is capable. 

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It’s just like in World of Rtanks Blitz where you see a little poor play in lowest tier, but more so in highest tier since everyone thinks they are an “Elite Player” if they rush straight to top tier and maybe get all the high tier ships they can and only play high tier. This can be accomplished wish some generous credit card usage. So just like in tanks many of the truly skilled players go back to mid tiers and even low tiers to get better battles and some actual team play. That is why most of my Random battles are in mid tier is I enjoy the higher skill levels as well as the ships there.

Most of my X battles are usually Clan Battles, although on good days I will play X in Randoms.

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Side note. Im not against them putting a better tutorial in the game. I just dont believe it will have the desired effect that existing players clamor for. But carry on if you think it will. 

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just being brutally honest here, im sure this is gonna get downvoted so much... anyways...

the game is plagued by low IQ players who honestly have no idea what to do. I mean like seriously... who takes a BB and drives it into the middle of the cap? this game isnt about ramming(facepalm)... its about strategy and positioning and ofcourse  game mechanics..... 

I have made many mistakes where I am caught out of position, yet I still survive because I dont panic rush the enemy for a ram, I just bow tank all the damage and delay it as long as I can so atleast my team can benefit from my death... but unfortunately that thing nobody understands... everyone wants to survive the battle by lemming trains and crap like that

just in the past 3 days I have seen 5-6 games where all my team ships are camped in 1 SQUARE... i mean how hard can you lemming? lets all camp in 1 square with an island to block all our guns... yeah works great..

anyways too many dumb players with too big wallets playing this game

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I could use a tutorial. Being new and not a social media person.

Also a list of the acronyms would be helpful for some( AFK I figured out.)

A keyboard code list more detailed than the basic one would be nice.

How about a tutorial about game and team chat works? Is there a youtube video on that? (just did a search for chat on youtube and found some, so I will see if I learn anything) I know some of the F keys send messesages but have not tested them or made a list.

For the most part I plan to stay mid ot lower tier and Coop and try and not bother anyone, but the bots, unless I start being at the top of the game score every match and start thinking I am good.(not likely)

I am not sure the game play would support real "fleet" formations. But I am sure there is an in game version for teems.

Anytime you are dealing with the general public there is a wide distribution of player types who want different things out of the game.

Thanks for the help.

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6 minutes ago, GrayPanther2018 said:

I could use a tutorial. Being new and not a social media person.

Also a list of the acronyms would be helpful for some( AFK I figured out.)

A keyboard code list more detailed than the basic one would be nice.

How about a tutorial about game and team chat works? Is there a youtube video on that? (just did a search for chat on youtube and found some, so I will see if I learn anything) I know some of the F keys send messesages but have not tested them or made a list.

For the most part I plan to stay mid ot lower tier and Coop and try and not bother anyone, but the bots, unless I start being at the top of the game score every match and start thinking I am good.(not likely)

I am not sure the game play would support real "fleet" formations. But I am sure there is an in game version for teems.

Anytime you are dealing with the general public there is a wide distribution of player types who want different things out of the game.

Thanks for the help.

Dont be afraid to experience PVP. I understand people do learn more effectively using different methods. But for me, and what Ive seen the best way in 'vidyagaming" is through experience. Attempt to identify mistakes you are making and how to correct or minimize them. Low tiers are great for this in PVP, cause they are super chaotic so no one really cares. 

If ya dont like it, then co op is always there. 

"Anytime you are dealing with the general public there is a wide distribution of player types who want different things out of the game." 

Also that when I talk about random matches. You just dont know who you are playiing with. You dont know their motivations for playiing, so its difficult to really put high expectations on them. 

Edited by Octavian_of_Roma

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1 hour ago, StoneRhino said:

Short answer is "Nope, just nope"..

 

Agree with the answer but did you need to quote the entire wall of text?  As seen above you can selectively quote... 

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I do have games where players "play" stupid IMO.  But I also have a good many games where things go surprisingly well.  

Getting a team to cooperate in WOWS is like herding cats. The trick isn't forcing everyone to do it your way (even if it's the best way); you cannot do it that way.  You try...sometimes it might work...but most of the time it won't work.  So you have to MODIFY your way to maximize the effectiveness of the "cat herd".  Remember, the other side is a cat herd.  You just gotta have your cat herd play better than the other cat herd.  

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OP.  You can buy your way to the top in this game and never grind a single ship !  Why would you expect a game that allows that to be anything different?  This is not P2W outright but, it sure is that you can pay your way to the highest level and never have to master any skill..........    I have run into players that have only premium ships....  Ranked battles where entire teams have never ground a single ship !  This is a business and will never be anything other than a FPS.........because if it really were a game where combat effectiveness was calculated, it'd be an entirely "different game with an entirely different player base..." and,  a lot poorer...........if it could even stay solvent or profitable.  No one would play a SIM and pay this kind of money if reality ever became the standard.......  A vast majority would quit.   So please, take a deep breath, click your heel three time and say to yourself:  "it's just a game; it's just a silly ship game; reality has suspended indefinitely !"

See OP, you feel better now, eh?!

Edited by Asym_KS

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The game needs better tutorials - like actual interactive ones like World of Warplanes and I think tanks had, especially was needed for CV's but, why try and fix those right for a change, anyway, while it would help a bit frankly, it's going to do very little in the end. The comparison to Battlefield is actually accurate, as both try for a sense of realism, have a basis  in history but add just enough arcade to be fun for average players. But "Yolo rush 1337 torp b3ats" Mcgee is no different than Johnny "pr0 n0 sc0pe 360's l0l". They play to do crazy/stupid stuff. Some players just aren't good,some have not had the tools - those are the ones the guide would help, some just don't care. I had to stop reading cause I got lost in the lines (reason I had to drop out of the game and simulation I was in, more a me thing not just the text wall) but I saw you bring up about staying back and lack of support - some of that is just the IFHE meta right now. Combined with the broken Radar, and BB's having it a hair too easy to dev strike cruisers which all leads to no one wanting to be the one to get shot at, save a crazy man like me. And as far as the telling people what to do - trust me, as a CV player, I get it all the time, had a player too consecutive matches whine at me "learn to strafe" because he made stupid mistakes, and got singled out (one time after colliding with a large island so literal sitting duck) and my planes after previous strafing runs had to be recalled due to lack of ammo, ended up wrecked once by the CV, and another more by the 6 ships shooting at him, with me top/second place of the team in both matches. Everyone thinks they know better. But even at the highest levels of anything, you find some meh or bad players/teams/etc. Just look at American Football at the moment - tons of teams are barely breaking even or are worse with like 5 winning almost all their games. It just happens.

 

side note - the "leet" speak was actually painful to type, how do people actually type like that normally?

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2 hours ago, americantiger said:

It seems in my experiences lately at higher tier matches in World of Warships, I often see many players on my team commit serious mistakes that really shouldn't even be prevalent at that tier

Of course. In lower tiers mistakes are often not punished because both sides lack the experience to recognize and exploit them. At T10 the mistakes are obvious and because of the massive scaling of offense over defense and the presence of a leaven of experienced and skill players, instantly and severely punished.

Moreover, because of the restricted T4 MM, players race through T5 and T6, which suck, meaning that they reach the high tiers with insufficient experience. Because the T8 MM has been utter garbage the last couple of years, many players race through T8 as well. They hit T9 and then race through that because so many T9 ships are grindwalls and fodder ships for T10s. By the time this population reaches T10 it lacks the experience and skills it needs to function there.

Gameplay at T10 is awful. I have moved back to T7 where it is simply more fun -- it is easier to recover from being down a couple of ships, the maps aren't as awful, and player skill is more commensurate with tier level. I suggest you do the same. 

Edited by Taichunger

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1 hour ago, americantiger said:

Which is why I suggested adding in a series of in-game guides to give people a chance to learn the ropes of the game

It already has it in the hundreds of games played at various tiers. You used to get amazing games in the 4-7 bracket but many players just couldn't handle higher tier economy/game play and brought their "Elite high tier experience" back to lower tiers and mostly ruin mid tier games.

Just pew pew pew pew and enjoy the few excellent games you get. Worrying about what Joe random is doing is just undue stress.

 

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39 minutes ago, Warped_1 said:

Agree with the answer but did you need to quote the entire wall of text?  As seen above you can selectively quote... 

Yes, if for no other reason than to have the op have to look at that monstrosity.

Sorry for all others that had to view it twice.

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Sadly, too many players see the high tiers as an endgame of sorts, despite most of the actual competitive endgame content being gated behind a measure of skill that comes down to game knowledge and raw experience. 

I don't think limiting premium purchases would do much good beyond hurting potential sales, as those who shell out large amounts of money for ships they may not be ready for might just be as likely to double down and attempt to learn the game as outright quit it. Nobody really enjoys being mediocre, at least when they're aware of it.

This is all from personal experience being one of the original Derpitzes when the game left beta, and subsequently doing my best to get good.

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5 hours ago, americantiger said:

Which is why I suggested adding in a series of in-game guides to give people a chance to learn the ropes of the game

Right but many of these players either know better and don't care or they don't care to learn. One of the problems is how players are ranked and rewarded by the game and the community. Total damage dealt and enemy ships sunk per your ship's sinking are viewed as better metrics and more important than your team's overall success. That's one of the reasons we have DDs refusing to cap and instead heading off on wild torping missions, CA/CLs that won't support caps and hide behind islands and BBs who run the other way hoping for a glimpse of an enemy's broadside from 15+ km away.

Too little emphasis is placed on teamwork, strategy and tactics. The only "reward" is the increased reward at the end of the battle but since half of your team is generally potatoing and throwing the game, people focus on themselves. "My team sucks so I'm going to hide, snipe, run, hide, snipe, etc."

So the problem isn't a lack of information on tactics, it's a matter of priority and value. So how do you encourage the entire playerbase to focus on teamwork, tactics and strategy? For starters, creating a more complicated reward system that could track and reward BBs for tanking, team focus firing, CA supporting DDs capping, ships screening for each other, etc., and that gave greater value to spotting, aircraft shot down, etc., Aside from that MM needs to be tweaked (won't happen) as too many of us are seeing "unipotato" teams over and over. For the love of God, spread out the potatoes evenly.

Last of all, game mechanics which require teamwork,like more advanced PVP versions of scenarios would help promote teamwork and tactics, create some diversity in the game play and break up the redundancy.

 

Edited by Code_Slinger

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