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TL_Warlord_Roff

Instead of screaming for a nerf, learn to beat them!

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Oh HE spam.. nerf..

I'm more then a bit tired of hearing player scream nerf, nerf nerf.

I grew up with table top wargames with myf first being a little gen called "Tactics II" back in 1970.  There was no nerfing.. there were no revisions, there were no updates.  There was no feed back.  You went with what you had out of the box and made the best of it and you either won or lost on your ability to master the game mechanics and rules of play and the game tactics.  I sure hear a lot of whining and excuse making out of today computer gamers.  It's... annoying....

HE is annoying,  But it is as strong as it is as a balancing element of the game.  Examine whats in front of you.  What line of ships are strongest in HE.. The Brit BB line!  Infamously so at this point.  How do the brit BB big guns AP perform?  Not so good?  Yea, Not so good.  Their AP perform a little bit better V DD's and CA but not as well against other BB.  There are reasons for this in the game modeling but that's neither here nor there.   Those reasons are to provide variety in game play and game balance so we are not all driving clones.  Please remember that this is not a naval combat sim (though it roots are in naval sim play)   You don't need to know the why, but you do need to learn the results and the end effect.

Ditto RADAR, hydro acoustic search, RPF, Aircraft, Torpedo's and much much more all to provide us with a game with challenging game mechanics that FEEL like naval combat during the age of the battleship.

But tactics beat widgets.  This is your mantra.  And not just single ship tactics but ship group tactics.  That's why division'd players do so much better then solo players over time.  Why most UNICUM players never ever EVER play solo.   

World of Warships is not a simple game like PUBG or any shooter you care to name.  You not a single person with a gun, your a multi thousand ton warship with a whole lotta guns, and more guns, and torpedo's and systems and a crew in some cases well over 1000 sailors and officers.   That player that thinks is the player that wins but they also don't do it by them selves.  Even the player that hard carries doesn't do it by them selves.  They take advantage of opportunities that other players have created (and on occasion it's players on the opposite team that create the opportunity.  We call them "targets")  Without the rest of the team doing what they need to do there is no carry and there is no victory.

No gain with out risk.  

Less screaming for Nerf and more paying attention please.

Warlord sends

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15 minutes ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

I grew up with table top wargames with myf first being a little gen called "Tactics II" back in 1970.  

Oh how I loved that game!  Avalon Hill was the absolute BOSS of table top gaming!

I had tons of their titles.  I even had the College Football and Pro Football games.

I STILL have some of those games.  Great stuff!

CS

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You think table top games dont get revisions to rules or changes to powers over time? Or do you just think D&D has 5+ editions for fun? Like... buffs and nerfs are part of balancing a game. (And lets just ignore the fact that with table top games you can pretty much also construct your own rules and scenarios... meaning you play the role of "developer" in such situaitons).

 

Generally when things in a game have the effect of changing how you play just by simply existing they need to be tuned down. Period.

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23 minutes ago, Avalon304 said:

You think table top games dont get revisions to rules or changes to powers over time? Or do you just think D&D has 5+ editions for fun? Like... buffs and nerfs are part of balancing a game. (And lets just ignore the fact that with table top games you can pretty much also construct your own rules and scenarios... meaning you play the role of "developer" in such situaitons).

 

Generally when things in a game have the effect of changing how you play just by simply existing they need to be tuned down. Period.

I agree with your thoughts except for the last bit where you state 'how you play'.

It should always be 'how the game plays'. It should always be about the balance for the community, not the individual player or ship types etc (and WG can look at stats/evidence to try  and keep balance).

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1 hour ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

Less screaming for Nerf and more paying attention please.

Warlord sends

Or people could do what you actually did: avoid T10 (55 battles out of 11000???) and just play 1600 battles in Fuso so one never has to actually learn to play against the real fire spammers in the top tiers. 

There are reasons that thoughtful players want certain ships nerfed. 

Less lecturing on what everyone knows, more understanding of why certain mechanics might be very bad for the game.

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I dont have any problem with learning However,  I do think BB AP is way to strong/BB AP rounds are way to precise at tier 10.  Take my match tonight on two brothers as an example...

I am in the Worcester, Two brothers map, I am hunting down the Shima, he is running away from me.Then  out of no where, outside of my battery range, a BB takes 8k DMG from me...

Granted the BB is WAY downtown, I even though there was no way he is going to be a threat. Boy was I wrong, the red BB was heading away from me at J4 heading to J2 and I was at J8 heading to J7. Its was not a citadel but still I could not return fire because, the red BB was way outside my gun battery range. 

Because of this type of over capable tier 10 BBs,  Tier 10 is to passive for my play style. IMO This takes the fun out of the game. I hope the developers would make High tiers fair for all ship class.

BTW

I manage to sink the shima and go silent, we end up winning the match.

Tier 10 game play is not for my play style. Mid tier matches are bet IMO. 

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56 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Or people could do what you actually did: avoid T10 (55 battles out of 11000???) and just play 1600 battles in Fuso so one never has to actually learn to play against the real fire spammers in the top tiers. 
 

 

Mid tier have their share of HE spammer :

-French and Soviet CL in general

-Atlanta and Flint

-US CL

-Soviet DD

-Myoukou 

-Belfast

...

 

The only thing high tier have over low and mid tier are high DPM ship like Akizuki, Minotaure and Worcester. 

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23 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

Mid tier have their share of HE spammer :

-French and Soviet CL in general

-Atlanta and Flint

-US CL

-Soviet DD

-Myoukou 

-Belfast

...

 

The only thing high tier have over low and mid tier are high DPM ship like Akizuki, Minotaure and Worcester. 

Minotaur doesn't use HE, or maybe I misread, because you were talking about HE spammers, then suddenly switched to high dpm.

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2 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

I dont have any problem with learning However,  I do think BB AP is way to strong/BB AP rounds are way to precise at tier 10.  Take my match tonight on two brothers as an example...

I am in the Worcester, Two brothers map, I am hunting down the Shima, he is running away from me.Then  out of no where, outside of my battery range, a BB takes 8k DMG from me...

Granted the BB is WAY downtown, I even though there was no way he is going to be a threat. Boy was I wrong, the red BB was heading away from me at J4 heading to J2 and I was at J8 heading to J7. Its was not a citadel but still I could not return fire because, the red BB was way outside my gun battery range. 

Because of this type of over capable tier 10 BBs,  Tier 10 is to passive for my play style. IMO This takes the fun out of the game. I hope the developers would make High tiers fair for all ship class.

BTW

I manage to sink the shima and go silent, we end up winning the match.

Tier 10 game play is not for my play style. Mid tier matches are bet IMO. 

So it was OK for you to kill the Shima, but it is not OK for you for BBs to actually deal massive damage to you?

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1 hour ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

So it was OK for you to kill the Shima, but it is not OK for you for BBs to actually deal massive damage to you?

And since when is 8k really "massive damage"? That's like what, 2 pens?

It's a good hit, but that's why ships have HP, so they can take hits and keep sailing.

It's uncommon for me to finish a cruiser game with more than 33% HP left.

 

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5 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

Oh HE spam.. nerf..

I'm more then a bit tired of hearing player scream nerf, nerf nerf.

I grew up with table top wargames with myf first being a little gen called "Tactics II" back in 1970.  There was no nerfing.. there were no revisions, there were no updates.  There was no feed back.  You went with what you had out of the box and made the best of it and you either won or lost on your ability to master the game mechanics and rules of play and the game tactics.  I sure hear a lot of whining and excuse making out of today computer gamers.  It's... annoying....

HE is annoying,  But it is as strong as it is as a balancing element of the game.  Examine whats in front of you.  What line of ships are strongest in HE.. The Brit BB line!  Infamously so at this point.  How do the brit BB big guns AP perform?  Not so good?  Yea, Not so good.  Their AP perform a little bit better V DD's and CA but not as well against other BB.  There are reasons for this in the game modeling but that's neither here nor there.   Those reasons are to provide variety in game play and game balance so we are not all driving clones.  Please remember that this is not a naval combat sim (though it roots are in naval sim play)   You don't need to know the why, but you do need to learn the results and the end effect.

Ditto RADAR, hydro acoustic search, RPF, Aircraft, Torpedo's and much much more all to provide us with a game with challenging game mechanics that FEEL like naval combat during the age of the battleship.

But tactics beat widgets.  This is your mantra.  And not just single ship tactics but ship group tactics.  That's why division'd players do so much better then solo players over time.  Why most UNICUM players never ever EVER play solo.   

World of Warships is not a simple game like PUBG or any shooter you care to name.  You not a single person with a gun, your a multi thousand ton warship with a whole lotta guns, and more guns, and torpedo's and systems and a crew in some cases well over 1000 sailors and officers.   That player that thinks is the player that wins but they also don't do it by them selves.  Even the player that hard carries doesn't do it by them selves.  They take advantage of opportunities that other players have created (and on occasion it's players on the opposite team that create the opportunity.  We call them "targets")  Without the rest of the team doing what they need to do there is no carry and there is no victory.

No gain with out risk.  

Less screaming for Nerf and more paying attention please.

Warlord sends

You must be a little long in the tooth. I remember that game and I'm mid 50's.

Another great game was "Yankee Team" inspired by the book.

Me and my possy got our nerd on and did the whole little metal miniature and hex terrain deal. 

Sort of an analog World of Tanks.

There was also a World of Warships analog call Jutland.

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WHAAAT??? Tactics II??? Why.....back in the 1950's, the ORIGINAL "Tactics" was good enough for people! Then the whiny 1970's players came along and had to have their "New and Improved" (Nerfed and Buffed), newfangled, "Tactics II"!!! (The irony of it all, eh?) BTW, while I have your attention, GET OFF MY GRASS!!!!!  :Smile_trollface:    

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90% of cries for nerfs to anything in any MMO come from players who are salty / butthurt that they can't faceroll something.

This game is no different.  Anti-BB screeds, anti-DD screeds, anti-CV screeds, whatever... 90% of it is just solipsistic bawling. 

 

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3 hours ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

So it was OK for you to kill the Shima, but it is not OK for you for BBs to actually deal massive damage to you? 

I guess My concern is not about whats "OK". My whole grip in the original post was the red BB was IMO to far to be of any threat to my citadel or anything else for that matter. The BB

  • Was half way across the other map J4 moving away from me, I was at J8. From this distance I was under the impression 
  1. I can;t shoot at him so I will concentrate on the Shima
  2. His (BB) AP  guns are to far to to cause any reliable DMG on me.
  • When a Ship class cant shoot back at the ship that is shooting at you because of limited Gun range, But the BB can shoot at you with shots that are unrealistically accurate without fear of retaliatory fire. Its no difference then "Stealth torping". Stealth Torping can be countered by working as a team with cruisers and DDs in your fleet.
  • Having unrealistic gun accuracy firing back at you from other side the map and consistently nailing for good pens, and you cant shoot back at them, you dont see that in the mid tiers (up to tier 7, tiers 8 9 and 10 this is more of  problem).

I was wrong in underestimating the over capabilities those BB guns can do from long range. Its one of the reasons (IMO) Tier 10 battles are meant to be passive warfare game play. I for one stay away from Tier 10 because its not for the aggressive players/play styles. 

I guess in summery the argument I want to make is  not about "Is it OK" or "Not OK" in the end that is subjective to whom is playing tier 10. Instead, are the  BBs armaments

  • to  over capable?
  • Are unrealistically accurate at over 15km away?
  •  Suppressing the other Ships class by surpassing them with this unrealistic performance in matches because of this over capabilities?

Something to ponder/take a look at when you play your tier 10  matches today.

GL/HF

 

Edited by Navalpride33

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5 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

Mid tier have their share of HE spammer :

-French and Soviet CL in general

-Atlanta and Flint

-US CL

-Soviet DD

-Myoukou 

-Belfast

...

 

The only thing high tier have over low and mid tier are high DPM ship like Akizuki, Minotaure and Worcester. 

i think most whines are actually about harugumo and daring

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6 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

I dont have any problem with learning However,  I do think BB AP is way to strong/BB AP rounds are way to precise at tier 10.  Take my match tonight on two brothers as an example...

I am in the Worcester, Two brothers map, I am hunting down the Shima, he is running away from me.Then  out of no where, outside of my battery range, a BB takes 8k DMG from me...

Granted the BB is WAY downtown, I even though there was no way he is going to be a threat. Boy was I wrong, the red BB was heading away from me at J4 heading to J2 and I was at J8 heading to J7. Its was not a citadel but still I could not return fire because, the red BB was way outside my gun battery range. 

Because of this type of over capable tier 10 BBs,  Tier 10 is to passive for my play style. IMO This takes the fun out of the game. I hope the developers would make High tiers fair for all ship class.

BTW

I manage to sink the shima and go silent, we end up winning the match.

Tier 10 game play is not for my play style. Mid tier matches are bet IMO. 

I've been focused on the LU for the Yammy I ground up to and I'm really a DD driver so it's been fun "being on the other side of the equation..."

Lad, every night I play the Yamato, some CA/CL CPT is blissfully sailing in a straight line, chasing something and completely broadside to be 24 K + away.....  every night, I get 2 or more Citadels on CA/CL's doing exactly what you described.  And, late in the game, kills on ships they had no idea they were being stalked....  That CPT skill of letting you know you are being targeted.....  Well, when I sail in my BB's, my job is to influence the battle space and to do so, taking shots at the enemy on the far side of the map is a sure fire way to get their attention..........especially, since my division mates usually operates in pairs of BB's....  That's usually 18+ main gun rounds headed your way.....

HE Spam ships are number one on the target list lad.......we can and do shoot out to and beyond 25K and we are looking for you in your HE spammer.......

BTW, I loved Axis and Allies and earlier, we played "Risk" to the point we combined two risk boards together !!!   Wow, being a senior citizen is a novel experience.......so much has gone on, so fast and we were part of it!!!  (watching star trek on NBC live !!!!)  Today's kids have so much and don't even realize it..............it's just too easy now to have more.....

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51 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I guess My concern is not about whats "OK". My whole grip in the original post was the red BB was IMO to far to be of any threat to my citadel or anything else for that matter. The BB

  • Was half way across the other map J4 moving away from me, I was at J8. From this distance I was under the impression 
  1. I can;t shoot at him so I will concentrate on the Shima
  2. His (BB) AP  guns are to far to to cause any reliable DMG on me.
  • When a Ship class cant shoot back at the ship that is shooting at you because of limited Gun range, But the BB can shoot at you with shots that are unrealistically accurate without fear of retaliatory fire. Its no difference then "Stealth torping". Stealth Torping can be countered by working as a team with cruisers and DDs in your fleet.
  • Having unrealistic gun accuracy firing back at you from other side the map and consistently nailing for good pens, and you cant shoot back at them, you dont see that in the mid tiers (up to tier 7, tiers 8 9 and 10 this is more of  problem).

I was wrong in underestimating the over capabilities those BB guns can do from long range. Its one of the reasons (IMO) Tier 10 battles are meant to be passive warfare game play. I for one stay away from Tier 10 because its not for the aggressive players/play styles. 

I guess in summery the argument I want to make is  not about "Is it OK" or "Not OK" in the end that is subjective to whom is playing tier 10. Instead, are the  BBs armaments

  • to  over capable?
  • Are unrealistically accurate at over 15km away?
  •  Suppressing the other Ships class by surpassing them with this unrealistic performance in matches because of this over capabilities?

Something to ponder/take a look at when you play your tier 10  matches today.

GL/HF

 

It's not just BB guns. Contrast the threat your average T7 cruiser poses at long ranges vs your average T10 cruiser both in terms of AP to broadsides and HE spam. Whether it was meant to be that way is debatable but it is the main cause of T10 passiveness. Remember it the next time someone complains about how radar/smoke/torpedoes/the voices in his head are causing the passive gameplay at high tiers. It's always the guns and it's always been the guns. 

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OP is, I think, correct in principle. However, comparing the update/patch cycles (with or without loud and vocal user feedback) of board games and MMO's is apples and oranges.

That said, I agree that you play the hand you're dealt or fold. No game will ever be optimized to be perfect for everybody. Exempli gratia, I hate CV's in this game and everything about them, and always will. But there they are, and I'm still playing.

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Peeps might also realize that signal flags and captain skills are there to help boost the performance of ur ships. If your crying for nerf's you obviously haven't been outfitting your ships and crew properly. there will alway's be shortcoming's and strength's to every ship. Learn them and learn how to use them in conjunction with your team and you will find that game play will become much more festive and rewarding. situational awareness is key.

 

So suck it up buttercup. Without sacrifice there can be no victory.

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13 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

Less screaming for Nerf and more paying attention please.

Yea but screaming for DD nerfs if they need it or not is fun, just to watch the DD mafia have kittens lol. 

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6 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

I guess My concern is not about whats "OK". My whole grip in the original post was the red BB was IMO to far to be of any threat to my citadel or anything else for that matter. The BB

  • Was half way across the other map J4 moving away from me, I was at J8. From this distance I was under the impression 
  1. I can;t shoot at him so I will concentrate on the Shima
  2. His (BB) AP  guns are to far to to cause any reliable DMG on me.
  • When a Ship class cant shoot back at the ship that is shooting at you because of limited Gun range, But the BB can shoot at you with shots that are unrealistically accurate without fear of retaliatory fire. Its no difference then "Stealth torping". Stealth Torping can be countered by working as a team with cruisers and DDs in your fleet.
  • Having unrealistic gun accuracy firing back at you from other side the map and consistently nailing for good pens, and you cant shoot back at them, you dont see that in the mid tiers (up to tier 7, tiers 8 9 and 10 this is more of  problem).

I was wrong in underestimating the over capabilities those BB guns can do from long range. Its one of the reasons (IMO) Tier 10 battles are meant to be passive warfare game play. I for one stay away from Tier 10 because its not for the aggressive players/play styles. 

I guess in summery the argument I want to make is  not about "Is it OK" or "Not OK" in the end that is subjective to whom is playing tier 10. Instead, are the  BBs armaments

  • to  over capable?
  • Are unrealistically accurate at over 15km away?
  •  Suppressing the other Ships class by surpassing them with this unrealistic performance in matches because of this over capabilities?

Something to ponder/take a look at when you play your tier 10  matches today.

GL/HF

 

You do know there is a skill that alerts you to long range gunfire coming your way? If you take that skill and change course and speed every time it goes off you will never be hit by long range gunfire again. Getting hit by Battleship at at 20+ kilometers is 100% on you sir.

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