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Sabot_100

Survivable Secondaries

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Wondering which BB has the most damage resistant secondaries (adjusted for tier)?  In a meta where DDs (with IFHE) to BBs (not just the Brits) are slinging lots of HE, which BB will is the most likely to still have guns left after a raking to make a secondary build worthwhile? Armor and hit points would be a major factor. Another factor in survivability would be having the guns more spread out so single hits don't take whole batteries. I assume a direct hit by a BB caliber HE will take any secondary out.

As a side note, I think that using your DC should repair some percentage  of your knocked out secondaries and AA guns. Something like 20-25% of the destroyed guns. (i.e. at 20%,  if you have 10 mounts destroyed, hitting DC gives 2 back.  Hitting DC again only gives 1 more (0.2X8=1.6). At 25% a ship with 4 mounts (like many IJN mid-tier ships) could get at least one back. It could never bring back all your destroyed guns but wouldn't leave you as defenseless. Alternatively, you could just get one mount of each type back when you hit DC. When WG set up the current system, I don't think they anticipated so much HE being used by all types of ships and IFHE wasn't as skill.

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Just put the Auxiliary Armament Mod 1 on the ship with best secondaries, job done!

If prone to AA buff your AA with Modules and Cap skills; if fire use damage reduction and cap skills.

There are available mods and skills for nearly every situation, it's just that so many build for damage and believe they should get protection via some buff to the ship that it's easy to forget there are options. :Smile_honoring:

Edited by _WaveRider_

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21 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Just put the Auxiliary Armament Mod 1 on the ship with best secondaries, job done!

Certainly make them more resistant giving the mounts more HP BUT I think Conqueror rounds are still going to kill them en mass. In the current meta it seems too easy to strip away all the secondaries/AA from some ships. Means your secondary/AA spec just became useless halfway through a match.

 

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Current meta? What has happened to make fire to the secondaries so much more potent. I wasn't aware of a change in that area?

 

And the mod increases survivability of secondaries and AA to 100%. An easy fix really.

Edited by _WaveRider_

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

Wondering which BB has the most damage resistant secondaries (adjusted for tier)?  In a meta where DDs (with IFHE) to BBs (not just the Brits) are slinging lots of HE, which BB will is the most likely to still have guns left after a raking to make a secondary build worthwhile? Armor and hit points would be a major factor. Another factor in survivability would be having the guns more spread out so single hits don't take whole batteries. I assume a direct hit by a BB caliber HE will take any secondary out.

As a side note, I think that using your DC should repair some percentage  of your knocked out secondaries and AA guns. Something like 20-25% of the destroyed guns. (i.e. at 20%,  if you have 10 mounts destroyed, hitting DC gives 2 back.  Hitting DC again only gives 1 more (0.2X8=1.6). At 25% a ship with 4 mounts (like many IJN mid-tier ships) could get at least one back. It could never bring back all your destroyed guns but wouldn't leave you as defenseless. Alternatively, you could just get one mount of each type back when you hit DC. When WG set up the current system, I don't think they anticipated so much HE being used by all types of ships and IFHE wasn't as skill.

Some guy data mined a lot of the secondary mount armor values, which you can see here.

In practice, the greatest threats to your secondary mounts are HE spamming battleships and British cruisers.

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31 minutes ago, Ranari said:

Some guy data mined a lot of the secondary mount armor values, which you can see here.

In practice, the greatest threats to your secondary mounts are HE spamming battleships and British cruisers.

I'm beginning to think it was another 'DDs will rule the world thread'?

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German secondary guns seem to be rather resilient, like my Bismarck Secondaries endure a lot more punishment than my Republique can.

Need more data on USN BBs to know how their Secondaries survive under all conditions. And I don’t  have a Massachusetts to be able to use that and compare to Bismarck either. So we will need somebody who has both ships to be able to run those numbers.

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I'm not sure why, but as of late I've noticed a significant increase in the number of my Bismarck's secondaries being taken out. Now, on most BBs, I wouldn't care, but I've invested A LOT into my secondary builds on German BBs, and boy, does it get me triggered. :cap_viking::cap_rambo:

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Secondary durability is a bit arbitrary. I think that heavy secondary armor gets you 0.2 base damage from HE splash, depending on caliber this is reduced by 0.3-0.1. So ships that get 0.2 secondary damage reduction generally do not lose secondary guns to most HE splash(though they can and do fuse AP, which will kill secondaries if it is short-fuze).

Enclosed turrets with light armor(i.e. 1" or so) get 0.6 base so will take HE splash from most sources and get killed in short order. 0.4 guns will die as well but take significantly longer. I think 2" or so gets you 0.4 base. Having plating above 4-5" gets you 0.0 base, meaning that the turret will basically never die to HE splash(I think torps are the only source of HE splash that negates resistance).

WRT Germans, the open 105mm and turreted 127mm guns are easily killed(0.6), but the enclosed 150mm turrets have 0.0 due to their armor. USN has 0.2 on their 5"/38 and /54 turrets. France has 0.6, even on the 152mm guns. IDK about UK, haven't looked them up.

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31 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Secondary durability is a bit arbitrary. I think that heavy secondary armor gets you 0.2 base damage from HE splash, depending on caliber this is reduced by 0.3-0.1. So ships that get 0.2 secondary damage reduction generally do not lose secondary guns to most HE splash(though they can and do fuse AP, which will kill secondaries if it is short-fuze).

Enclosed turrets with light armor(i.e. 1" or so) get 0.6 base so will take HE splash from most sources and get killed in short order. 0.4 guns will die as well but take significantly longer. I think 2" or so gets you 0.4 base. Having plating above 4-5" gets you 0.0 base, meaning that the turret will basically never die to HE splash(I think torps are the only source of HE splash that negates resistance).

WRT Germans, the open 105mm and turreted 127mm guns are easily killed(0.6), but the enclosed 150mm turrets have 0.0 due to their armor. USN has 0.2 on their 5"/38 and /54 turrets. France has 0.6, even on the 152mm guns. IDK about UK, haven't looked them up.

I did 26,000 dmg in one game with non-manual, 9.4 km Bismarck IFHE secondaries

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1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

German secondary guns seem to be rather resilient, like my Bismarck Secondaries endure a lot more punishment than my Republique can.

Need more data on USN BBs to know how their Secondaries survive under all conditions. And I don’t  have a Massachusetts to be able to use that and compare to Bismarck either. So we will need somebody who has both ships to be able to run those numbers.

They're more survivable than the 105mm mounts found on the Bismarck and Friedrich, but nowhere near as beefy as the German 150mm mounts.  Overall much beefier than French mounts.  In practice, I lose about 1-2 a game with the Massachusetts, and fewer in the Montana.  The nice thing with American ships is that their main battery turret protection is way superior, so you can invest in Auxiliary armaments without noticing it. 

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18 hours ago, Ranari said:

The nice thing with American ships is that their main battery turret protection is way superior, so you can invest in Auxiliary armaments without noticing it. 

True. With many of the French BBs turret layouts they cannot afford to lose a turret (may lose all your forward firepower) and their turrets are large and a bit squishy. Can't afford not to protect them.

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I think the casemate secondaries are typically more robust and durable than the turret mounted ones.

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2 hours ago, Vader_Sama said:

I think the casemate secondaries are typically more robust and durable than the turret mounted ones.

It's all a trade-off, really.  Casemate secondaries are better protected, but are very limited with their firing angles.  Mounted secondaries are vastly more usable, but of course, more exposed.  In fact, one of the things that really separates lower tier brawling potential ships from high tier ones is the usability of the secondary firing angles.  Warspite is really the one exception, mainly because its secondaries all face forward and are more usable than the others.

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5 hours ago, Vader_Sama said:

I think the casemate secondaries are typically more robust and durable than the turret mounted ones.

I assumed this but am now not sure this is universally true. Looking at the numbers in the links above, some of them have pretty crap armor. What they do have is dispersion and being single mounts so you don't lose as many guns per hit. You also often have some pretty bad gun angles like Ranari mentioned. WG seems to not let many such guns fire directly forward or aft.

Edited by Sabot_100

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