Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Die95

Revisiting IFHE CL vs CA

63 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

27
Members
68 posts
2,951 battles

It has been almost 2 years since IFHE has been introduced into the game, and I want to see how the opinion on the community has changed surrounding it over this time. 

I dug up one of my old topics from around the time that IFHE went live, and the opinion was back then that IFHE was of limited use, and in general CA's were still better due to more potent AP. What do you think now? 

 

Edited by Die95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,135
[-K-]
Members
6,454 posts
10,713 battles

The cardinal rules still apply.  IFHE is still basically mandatory for any 152mm-sized guns for reliable damage outside of fires.

Basically, anything in the 140mm (Kuma, Yubari) to 180mm (Donskoi) run range will benefit greatly in HE penetration against the armor types they will face.

I almost don't like it being a necessity skill in the current meta for light cruisers.  Really reduces build flexibility.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
148
[USCG]
Members
383 posts
14,844 battles
4 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

The cardinal rules still apply.  IFHE is still basically mandatory for any 152mm-sized guns for reliable damage outside of fires.

Basically, anything in the 140mm (Kuma, Yubari) to 180mm (Donskoi) run range will benefit greatly in HE penetration against the armor types they will face.

I almost don't like it being a necessity skill in the current meta for light cruisers.  Really reduces build flexibility.

I agree 100%!  As far as IFHE on destroyers I find it a "must have" for IJN gun boats and British destroyers tier eight and up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,135
[-K-]
Members
6,454 posts
10,713 battles
Just now, cgbosn4 said:

I agree 100%!  As far as IFHE on destroyers I find it a "must have" for IJN gun boats and British destroyers tier eight and up.

IFHE on IJN DDs? :Smile_amazed:

That's a first for me hearing that.  The only DDs IFHE is really useful on (in my humble opinion) are the British DDs as you mentioned, and French DDs like Aigle with their 139mm guns.

Using up 4 skill points with IFHE on an IJN DD (outside of Akizuki and up) is a huge misuse of commander skills that could be much better used elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
148
[USCG]
Members
383 posts
14,844 battles
1 minute ago, Ace_04 said:

Using up 4 skill points with IFHE on an IJN DD (outside of Akizuki and up) is a huge misuse of commander skills that could be much better used elsewhere.

Again, I agree. That's why I mentioned tier eight and up...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
838
[TDRB]
Members
2,808 posts
8,316 battles

IFHE improved my Dallas & Helena. I had to give up CE at 10 points for IFHE. Needing a 14pt commander for a T6 ship seems a little too much to ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,864
[DAKI]
Privateers, Members
8,523 posts
7,513 battles
46 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

The cardinal rules still apply.  IFHE is still basically mandatory for any 152mm-sized guns for reliable damage outside of fires.

Basically, anything in the 140mm (Kuma, Yubari) to 180mm (Donskoi) run range will benefit greatly in HE penetration against the armor types they will face.

I almost don't like it being a necessity skill in the current meta for light cruisers.  Really reduces build flexibility.

Add in Henri IV in Clan Battles this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,135
[-K-]
Members
6,454 posts
10,713 battles
18 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

Add in Henri IV in Clan Battles this season.

IFHE on 240mm guns?  What are you trying to penetrate?

54 minutes ago, cgbosn4 said:

Again, I agree. That's why I mentioned tier eight and up...

Yeah, it's early.  My bad, I missed that part.  :fish_sleep:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,024
[SPTR]
Members
26,642 posts
12,902 battles

240mm with IFHE will start penning 50mm armor plates of Khab and moskva and the decks of BBs 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,505
[SYN]
Members
15,332 posts
12,337 battles
1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

IFHE on IJN DDs? :Smile_amazed:

That's a first for me hearing that.  The only DDs IFHE is really useful on (in my humble opinion) are the British DDs as you mentioned, and French DDs like Aigle with their 139mm guns.

Using up 4 skill points with IFHE on an IJN DD (outside of Akizuki and up) is a huge misuse of commander skills that could be much better used elsewhere.

I don't think it's a "must have" skill on Akizuki 100mm guns, but since it has 1/4 penetration, it is in the same tier as 152mm guns with 1/6 penetration.

IFHE will open up a lot of thresholds.

6 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

IFHE on 240mm guns?  What are you trying to penetrate?

50mm plating on Moskva and Stalingrad

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
407
[BS]
Members
1,515 posts
8,065 battles

I don't get why they cap HE alpha damage at 1/3rd for a penetration. that's the real issue that causes the 152mm anemic/potent depending on whether you take the skill or not. HE alpha should have a more dynamic effect against armor of varying thickness. 152mm penetrates 25mm of armor correct? So when you hit 26mm, it just shatters, this shouldn't happen. HE rounds still have concussive damage in reality. The actual explosion of the HE round could cause penetration itself, it should have a pulverization effect... So I think the HE alpha should just taper off exponentially the higher you go above the penetration limit. 

152mm hits 25mm armor= 1/3rd HE alpha

152mm hits 26mm armor= 1/5th HE alpha

152mm hits 32mm armor= 1/7th HE alpha

152mm hits 50mm armor= 1/16th HE alpha

152mm hits 100mm armor= 1/32nd HE alpha

152mm hits 200mm armor= 1/64th HE alpha

Atleast you'll do SOMETHING, and since normal fire chance still applies...You won't need to run demo expert, freeing up another 3 points.

Edited by HorrorRoach
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
740
[DAKI]
Beta Testers
3,146 posts
4,595 battles
1 minute ago, Kevs02Accord said:

Don't like the mandatory nature of the skill on a lot of ships.

while i despise IFHE, this is true to most skills.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,626 posts
8,563 battles
Just now, Hanger_18 said:

while i despise IFHE, this is true to most skills.  

True, however, it feels as of late a lot of ships enter the game reliant on skills to be complete, rather than be complemented by the skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
740
[DAKI]
Beta Testers
3,146 posts
4,595 battles
Just now, Kevs02Accord said:

True, however, it feels as of late a lot of ships enter the game reliant on skills to be complete, rather than be complemented by the skills.

personally i think this is one area armored warfare did correctly. They had a TON of viable upgrade choices, and i don't see why we cant have the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,864
[DAKI]
Privateers, Members
8,523 posts
7,513 battles
47 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

IFHE on 240mm guns?  What are you trying to penetrate?

Stalingrads and Moskvas, we have faced several clans with usually one, sometimes more, and are running one ourselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
754
[NWNG]
Members
2,821 posts
4,689 battles
1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

IFHE on IJN DDs? :Smile_amazed:

That's a first for me hearing that.  The only DDs IFHE is really useful on (in my humble opinion) are the British DDs as you mentioned, and French DDs like Aigle with their 139mm guns.

Using up 4 skill points with IFHE on an IJN DD (outside of Akizuki and up) is a huge misuse of commander skills that could be much better used elsewhere.

That's why he specified Gunboat when he mentioned IJN DDs. The only gunboats are the Akizuki, Kitakaze, and Harugumo. Shirahatsuyu is like a gunboat, but just doesn't quite make the cut, it's rate of fire still on the slow side, but is a nice transition ship into the Akizuki.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,626 posts
8,563 battles
23 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

personally i think this is one area armored warfare did correctly. They had a TON of viable upgrade choices, and i don't see why we cant have the same.

I'll buy that for a dollar. What we need is a skill rework that actually creates diversity in game play, rather than funneling everyone into the meta builds. We need skills that are equally as good, but allow you to customize your captain to how you like to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,414
[NGAGE]
Clan Supertest Coordinator
4,529 posts
6,750 battles
2 hours ago, Die95 said:

I dug up one of my old topics from around the time that IFHE went live, and the opinion was back then that IFHE was of limited use, and in general CA's were still better due to more potent AP. What do you think now? 

1.  IFHE is 100% mandatory on most, if not all, light cruisers and is easily one of the most impactful skills in the game.  So much so WG has announced plans to nerf the hell out of massively rework IFHE and the roles of light and heavy cruisers in game.

2.  DPM goes a long ways in this game....and in general CLs have far better DPM than CAs.  This does not mean that CLs are universally better than CAs, but in a lot of cases light cruisers are just better than heavy cruisers.  Heavy cruiser AP is nice and can be a game changer, but without overmatch in play, fights between two good cruiser layers usually comes down to HE DPM, so in that regard CLs generally (not always) counter CAs, while also bringing higher potential against BBs and DDs.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
180 posts
2,725 battles
2 hours ago, kgh52 said:

IFHE improved my Dallas & Helena. I had to give up CE at 10 points for IFHE. Needing a 14pt commander for a T6 ship seems a little too much to ask.

Concur.  These ships are so profoundly influenced by IFHE that using them in team play without it seems like a betrayal.  A four point skill should have a noticeable impact, but should it be mandatory for competition at T6?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
314
Members
1,160 posts
8,080 battles

I think IFHE exposes the flaw in HE mechanics. Being able to penetrate at any angle beats the higher damage of AP in almost all situations, especially on low caliber guns where the HE & AP alpha are similar. On BB this isn't a problem cause their HE alpha is half their AP alpha, but on 6" guns the AP alpha isn't much higher than HE so unless you can guarantee a citadel there's no point in using AP.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,073 posts
78 battles

I expect IFHE to become a tradeoff skill. It should significantly reduce fire chance for improved penetration for cruisers. Something like double the current fire chance penalty but keep the same amount of armor penetration for cruiser guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,629
[AHOY_]
Beta Testers
6,793 posts
3,975 battles

WG mentioned recently they're looking to overhaul or remove IFHE and cruiser guns in the near future.

Notably:

  • They don't want IFHE to be mandatory on everything less than 203.
  • They want <203 caliber cruisers to not be as potent as 203+ cruisers against certain armor setups, requiring that <203 cruisers risk themselves a bit more.
  • They also want to make CAs more viable compared to CLs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
447
[WOLF1]
Members
2,640 posts

i agree IFHE being mandatory for a whole set of ships, then it should be on tier 1 instead of tier 4, so those ships don't have disadvantages at birth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,848
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
7,694 posts
11,727 battles

IFHE has been a mixed addition to the game, it has been overall necessary I think, especially given the profusion of both high-tier matchmaking and high tier 6in HE.

When it first rolled out, T8 was fairly nice matchmaking and the only 6in guns at high tiers were on the Chapayev and Kutuzov, while Donskoi could at least penetrate 27mm plating. Now we have the USN CL's up at T8-T10, matchmaking is less and less kind to T8 and more and more cruisers with 27mm bows have been rolled out. Without IFHE the CL paradigm would completely break down.

That said, by gracing a bunch of ships with virtually the same penetration as the CA's while they retain higher rate of fire and still decent fire chance was a problem. Rolling out IFHE also pushed some of the upper crust of CL's into OP territory - I'm not 100% sure that Belfast/Kutuzov would need to have been permanently removed from sale had IFHE not come out.

Otherwise -

  • A fixed -3%/-1% reduction is not very fair, on a Cleveland it chops 25% of your fire chance, on a D'Aosta it chops 43% of your fire chance
  • The fact that 14pt skippers become near-mandatory at low tiers on some ships isn't good as others have said
  • The fact that some ships just really should take IFHE, and CE's pretty much needed means that the variety in captain builds is viciously curtailed
  • Why play some CA? Their niche is to try and use AP on other cruisers which is typically problematic compared to just being a BB
  • Ending up with a combination of 1/4 pen and IFHE is just a symptom of something rather broken

 

We're stuck with it until WG can roll out a better reworking of it which needs to be more comprehensive.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×