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Jakajan

Conqueror Alternative guns not useful at all. Why not?

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With the Kurfusrst players can choose between reload rate and gun size.

Why not give the Conqueror the same option? Allow her to either have 8 bigger, more rapid firing guns or her current 12 gun config? Make the 8 gun usable I say.

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6 minutes ago, Jakajan said:

With the Kurfusrst players can choose between reload rate and gun size.

Why not give the Conqueror the same option? Allow her to either have 8 bigger, more rapid firing guns or her current 12 gun config? Make the 8 gun usable I say.

The Conqueror 457mm guns may not be faster firing, but they are more accurate, have better AP overmatch and firing HE does more damage and has a higher fire chance. 

It's not optimal, but it's entirely usable.

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15 minutes ago, Jakajan said:

With the Kurfusrst players can choose between reload rate and gun size.

Why not give the Conqueror the same option? Allow her to either have 8 bigger, more rapid firing guns or her current 12 gun config? Make the 8 gun usable I say.

So just...…….pull fake statistics out of thin air and call it a day, huh?

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10 minutes ago, mofton said:

The Conqueror 457mm guns may not be faster firing, but they are more accurate, have better AP overmatch and firing HE does more damage and has a higher fire chance. 

It's not optimal, but it's entirely usable.

he's right! why do all that math when you can just sling HE and get garrenteed damage!:Smile_veryhappy: AP for the stock gun's aren't to shabby neither!:Smile_Default:

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24 minutes ago, mofton said:

The Conqueror 457mm guns may not be faster firing, but they are more accurate, have better AP overmatch and firing HE does more damage and has a higher fire chance. 

It's not optimal, but it's entirely usable.

The extra overmatch doesn't do much since 457mm can't overmatch 32mm armor and most of the relevant armor thickness are either 25mm/28mm/32mm. Basically ship you can overmatch w/ the 457mm, you can probably overmatch w/ the 419mm but with 4 more guns. With the 12x419mm, you have more guns with relatively more fire chances since you are more likely to start a fire on multiple section of the ship and you have more dispersion rolls against things like DDs.  This is why almost no one use the 8x457mm on the conqueror

 

 

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http://shipcomrade.com/?p=790

I mainly went for something that would make the Conq more appealing to me then just sitting and throwing HE like a flamethrower equipped pill box. So I ran off to LWMs HMS Thunderer Review, aka: Fakeboat, and made a build for it as close as I could get it and used the ideas she had to try to build a play-style for it. 

Now don't get me wrong I get that these guns are unpopular, but I dont really wanna play a reskinned Montana. I dont find them to problematic on accuracy either, as long as the engagement range is 19km or so and in. Its kinda the same idea as many other BBs, just because you CAN fire 24km, doesn't mean you should.  Either way though, this style and idea of play does have the Conq moving in and engaging ships at much closer, and more entertaining, ranges. Plus, kinda like with HMS Vanguard, having a smaller number of guns rewards ammunition choices. Those are also brought into a more manageable range by the Expert Loader perk. 

While Im not trying to sell you guys on these guns they do have some use, its just not the kind of use many people expect out of a Conq. If you are bored of her though I'd give this build a try, or by all means put your own spin on it and try it another way. 

World of Warships Screenshot 2018.12.09 - 10.51.29.11.png

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3 minutes ago, NCC81701 said:

The extra overmatch doesn't do much since 457mm can't overmatch 32mm armor and most of the relevant armor thickness are either 25mm or 32mm. Basically ship you can overmatch w/ the 457mm, you can probably overmatch w/ the 419mm but with 4 more guns. With the 12x419mm, you have more guns with relatively more fire chances since you are more likely to start a fire on multiple section of the ship and you have more dispersion rolls against things like DDs.  This is why almost no one use the 8x457mm on the conqueror

The overmatch is pretty handy for shooting at high tier cruisers as it beats 30mm, beating 32mm would be tremendous, beating 30mm is a nice plus.

The deck armor of all the T10 cruisers save Minotaur and Moskva/Stalingrad is 30mm, and the casemate/amidships armor of the Zao and Hindenburg is also 30mm

In terms of fires, the fire chance is overall lower, though not by a huge amount - 63% on 8 guns vs. 48% on 12 guns, but with better accuracy in favor of the 457's.

 

Overall, as I said the 457 Conq is usable, not optimal. The original question by the OP seemed to suggest that there were simply no advantages to offset the lower barrel count.

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53 minutes ago, Jakajan said:

Why not give the Conqueror the same option? Allow her to either have 8 bigger, more rapid firing guns or her current 12 gun config? Make the 8 gun usable I say.

She is fine as is..... Her guns are more then great in the right hands who know how to play her. You got more then enough Over Capable BBs at tier 10. Not need to increase that

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6 minutes ago, mofton said:

The overmatch is pretty handy for shooting at high tier cruisers as it beats 30mm, beating 32mm would be tremendous, beating 30mm is a nice plus.

The deck armor of all the T10 cruisers save Minotaur and Moskva/Stalingrad is 30mm, and the casemate/amidships armor of the Zao and Hindenburg is also 30mm

In terms of fires, the fire chance is overall lower, though not by a huge amount - 63% on 8 guns vs. 48% on 12 guns, but with better accuracy in favor of the 457's.

 

Overall, as I said the 457 Conq is usable, not optimal. The original question by the OP seemed to suggest that there were simply no advantages to offset the lower barrel count.

Being able to overmatch 30mm decks hardly counts for much except against bow-in cruisers at long range; you are probably better off looking for better targets in such situations and 12x419mm with HE can deal with the same problem just as well.  Most of the time you are either overmatching cruiser 25mm bow or hitting them broadsides. Being able to overmatch 30mm It's not nothing, but giving up 4 guns is hardly worth it outside of competitive play. The per shell 8x457 may individually have a better fire chance but 12x419 have better applied fire chance since you can land shell over more areas of the ship and have less chance of 2 fires starting on the same section which still only counts as 1 fire. 

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Why? Because WG refuses to give 18" (457mm) guns the same overmatch ability as 18.1" (460mm) guns due to weeb bias.

Suggest this change to make the 18" option useful and you'll get shouted down by:

  • Yamato fanboys
  • "But the dozen 16.5" option is so good!"
  • "Conqueror is annoying HE spamming trash anyway" (kinda true)

WG has no apparent interest in revisiting the rather boring Royal Navy battleship line besides for the occasional nerf.

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I still wish that WG hadn't given the Conq the 16" guns.  People  were complaining about the Conq possibly being an HMS Montana if it got 4x3 16" guns.  And now that they've got them, all those complaints went away.

I wish that the devs would just make the 18" guns good and remove the 16's.  Make the Conq be distinct from the Montana.  

Heck, I wish that they'd given the GK its historical 4x2 turret layout, though from look at the H-class specs, the GK probably would have called for 4x2 18.9" guns which of course are larger than the Yammy's.  But if WG had really wanted to stick to their nothing bigger than the Yammy guns, they could have given the GK 18" guns and made them good.  The GK's main guns just don't feel very … German.

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28 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Heck, I wish that they'd given the GK its historical 4x2 turret layout, though from look at the H-class specs, the GK probably would have called for 4x2 18.9" guns which of course are larger than the Yammy's.  But if WG had really wanted to stick to their nothing bigger than the Yammy guns, they could have given the GK 18" guns and made them good.  The GK's main guns just don't feel very … German.

GK is H42B; it never had the 18.9" guns. That's H44

 

Correction: GK is H41

Edited by Personator

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8 minutes ago, Personator said:

GK is H42B; it never had the 18.9" guns. That's H44

 

Correction: GK is H41

No, H44 is 20" guns.  H42 and H43 were 18.9" guns.

And the GK can't be any of these, really, since the Germans didn't do triple turrets on any of their BBs with larger guns, unless you want to count the 11" guns on the  Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as "large".

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4 hours ago, mofton said:

The Conqueror 457mm guns may not be faster firing, but they are more accurate, have better AP overmatch and firing HE does more damage and has a higher fire chance. 

It's not optimal, but it's entirely usable.

The 457s are not accurate enough, IMO, to make up for the loss of firepower from throwing down 12 shells with the 419s.

 

Shell for shell, HE fire chance, AP Penetration, HE / AP damage values, etc... The 457mm is better, but being down to 8 max shells thrown down range instead of 12, with the prospect of RNG still screwing you over despite that 2.0 Sigma (and worse dispersion than Montana and you only have 8 shells instead of the 12 of Monty / 419-Conqueror), they are bad guns.

 

IMO, Republique's 430s are still very wonky in accuracy but at least she has very fast reloads to try and make up for it, and roll the dice again soon enough.  Conqueror's 457s don't have that, and they don't have Yamato accuracy, either.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Lol, Conq 457 proponents are entertaining forum jesters.

I think these people force it just to try to be "different".

Edited by GE_Capital

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Ran both for a handful of games and could not tell any difference with the accuracy. Fire chance might be higher per shell but giving up the rng of 4 additional guns makes no sense for either AP or he. They should just remove them.

Edited by ksix

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   I have really really tried to make the 457s "work", and they do set about the same amount of fires. But you just can't defeat the dpm math, either HE or AP, of the 419s. Also the 457s would really benefit from normal fuse timers that other BB's get. Yes, you can get good games in the 457s. Yes, they are good or possibly better against CA's because they will over match the various 30mm upper belt and deck armors out there with AP. But for shooting DD's and raw DPM numbers, other than as a fun novelty, the 419s are better.

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Because the bottom line is when it comes to doing damage as well as starting fires, volume of fire is almost always the preferable characteristic to have. This is not exclusive to Conqueror. On virtually any ships that has the option to mount more but smaller guns, or smaller gun with a faster reload is almost always better. It's also why ships like Lyon are so ridiculous strong despite its horrific accuracy and awful protection.

 

Edit: Also a sidenote, the last thing on Earth this game needs is for the Conqueror to be stronger by having more/better gun options. It already promotes the most cancerous unfun modes of play and is hilariously overpowered.

Edited by goldeagle1123
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11 hours ago, mofton said:

The Conqueror 457mm guns may not be faster firing, but they are more accurate, have better AP overmatch and firing HE does more damage and has a higher fire chance. 

It's not optimal, but it's entirely usable.

Is there any armor in the game between 28mm and 31mm?

I don't think the extra overmatch ability actually is pertinent. 

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1 minute ago, Ducky_shot said:

Is there any armor in the game between 28mm and 31mm?

I don't think the extra overmatch ability actually is pertinent. 

 

10 hours ago, mofton said:

The overmatch is pretty handy for shooting at high tier cruisers as it beats 30mm, beating 32mm would be tremendous, beating 30mm is a nice plus.

The deck armor of all the T10 cruisers save Minotaur and Moskva/Stalingrad is 30mm, and the casemate/amidships armor of the Zao and Hindenburg is also 30mm

 


7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The 457s are not accurate enough, IMO, to make up for the loss of firepower from throwing down 12 shells with the 419s.

 

11 hours ago, mofton said:

It's not optimal, but it's entirely usable.

Should I use more bold text? Yeah, it's not as good as the 419's, absolutely no contest. I have a soft spot for it and it's not awful.

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11 hours ago, Airglide2 said:

So just...…….pull fake statistics out of thin air and call it a day, huh?

Well, it's not like WG hasn't done that many many many many many.....many many....many times before.  I don't see what harm one more will cause because I guarantee it won't be the last.  

 

10 hours ago, NCC81701 said:

Being able to overmatch 30mm decks hardly counts for much except against bow-in cruisers at long range

The ability to overmatch 30mm of armor comes in handy far more than just "shooting bow in cruisers at long range".  The Zao, Hindenburg and Henri all have 30mm upper belts as well and can be incredibly tanky when angled properly, especially at close and medium range.  This doesn't mean the 457s are a good choice on the Conqueror, but overmatching 30mm of armor is a huge advantage for a BB to have.  

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