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NoZoupForYou

Containers - Are they Gambling? My thoughts...

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Every time these come on sale, the whole "gambling" debate crops up.

Think of this though... if you collect sports cards, these and loot crates are no different.  There is no guarantee you'll get nothing more than a pack of commons worth less than the 5$ you just spent.  Same goes for a movie.  You're gambling the movie will be worth the 20$ you spent.  So why are those fine, yet the EU and others throw a huge fuss up about these?

 

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because their morals are superior :Smile_facepalm:

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5 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Every time these come on sale, the whole "gambling" debate crops up. Same goes for a movie.  You're gambling the movie will be worth the 20$ you spent.  So why are those fine, yet the EU and others throw a huge fuss up about these?

  Your analogy is wrong.  With a loot crate, you have no real insight on what you're getting and zero knowledge of the odds of winning what you want (at least for WG).   With a movie, I can look at reviews/previews, go to the jondra I like, and I'm garenteed the movie I paid for is the one I get  (i.e. goto Star Wars movie, get a Star Wars movie...how good it is, is not the point). 

  While WoWS loot crates overall are a good deal, there is no escaping the fact that it is gambling.   Why EU and some US states "throw a huge fuss" is due to Electric Arts and other gaming companies heavily abusing/taking advantage of customers with their Loot Crates.   WG is only a very small step away from crossing the line.

VR,  

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I don't really focus on the gambling aspect.  I see creates as a dishonest sales tactic because these companies know if they disclosed the odds you wouldn't buy the creates (or that it would greatly harm sales).  Honesty/transparency should be the basis for every transaction. 

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I don't collect sports cards and I can and do read movie reviews... not mention movie previews and ratings  Next.

Edited by MrKilmister
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1 minute ago, MrKilmister said:

I don't collect sports cards and I can and do read movie reviews.  Next!

And WG tells you EXACTLY what you can get out of a loot crate. NEXT!!

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4 minutes ago, TexJapan said:

  Your analogy is wrong.  With a loot crate, you have no real insight on what you're getting and zero knowledge of the odds of winning what you want (at least for WG).   With a movie, I can look at reviews/previews, go to the jondra I like, and I'm garenteed the movie I paid for is the one I get  (i.e. goto Star Wars movie, get a Star Wars movie...how good it is, is not the point). 

  While WoWS loot crates overall are a good deal, there is no escaping the fact that it is gambling.   Why EU and some US states "throw a huge fuss" is due to Electric Arts and other gaming companies heavily abusing/taking advantage of customers with their Loot Crates.   WG is only a very small step away from crossing the line.

VR,  

That part is a bad analogy, but the part about sports cards is a good one.

Are things like sports cards considered gambling?

From a legal standpoint, any crates with a chance attached to them can be considered gambling.  But so could sports cards.

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Folks while we do understand this is a pretty controversial topic, let's keep this relevant to World of Warships, non-political as possible, and without poking each other.  Thank you!

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It's no different than playing the slots.

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Just now, DrHolmes52 said:

That part is a bad analogy, but the part about sports cards is a good one.

Are things like sports cards considered gambling?

From a legal standpoint, any crates with a chance attached to them can be considered gambling.  But so could sports cards.

  Sport cards, yes that analogy is in the ball park, but it's still gambling due to the fact you have no idea which card you're getting.  As for "legal standpoint", that is up to the federal and state governments to set the threshold.

  Your point can be carried over to what is legal or illegal for Drugs, alcohol,  or you fill in the blank.  There is no question that it can be abused, but again up to the Federal or state government to determine level of acceptance.

VR, 

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35 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Every time these come on sale, the whole "gambling" debate crops up.

Think of this though... if you collect sports cards, these and loot crates are no different.  There is no guarantee you'll get nothing more than a pack of commons worth less than the 5$ you just spent.  Same goes for a movie.  You're gambling the movie will be worth the 20$ you spent.  So why are those fine, yet the EU and others throw a huge fuss up about these?

 

Because, baseball cards are stand alone items that have no effect on anything else.........

Loot boxes, crates and anything that uses "P2W" or "enhanced in-game non-standard commodities" in a paid for system, is gambling....  Those "items", the few of them that really are "enhanced", are the bait for people to "keep trying to get them...."  Unlike Baseball cards, the items in the containers are directly part of the game and can, in fact, change how you play the game.....

Now, we have intuitive and advanced micro-transactions logic SP games that know what you "must have" to progress......not, might need but, must have to level up or progress to the next level and rank.........and, you have to "gamble on getting them...." or else....

The EU sees this as gambling......  The game "compels a player" to spend real money to advance and provides no specific, no cost solutions, to achieve the same purpose..... 

Make crates and loot boxes performance based and not available for real $$$$.......ergo, no gambling......   If not, "wait till WoWs gets it's first Darth Vader" and then, let's have this discussion again..... We aren't there yet.

Edited by Asym_KS
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6 minutes ago, Viper069 said:

It's no different than playing the slots.

I disagree, the slots have known, regulated, odds. In some countries, the amount you can spend on one arm bandits/slot machines is also limited. WOWS crates are unregulated, with unknown odds, with zero limits on how much players can spend.

519AWamMIUL._SY355_.jpg

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10 minutes ago, R_Razor said:

And WG tells you EXACTLY what you can get out of a loot crate. NEXT!!

Cinema Roulette.

DERP  

No, that would be like movie theaters selling you a basic admission ticket then as soon as you walk in the front door they shunt you off to one of dozens of movies the theater chooses for you with an algorithm. I wouldn't even consider going to such a theater unless the theater had a stellar reputation of only screening top notch, critically acclaimed films. I probably still wouldn't go there, just like I don't buy WG crates.  Next. 

Edited by MrKilmister

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Just now, TexJapan said:

  Sport cards, yes that analogy is in the ball park, but it's still gambling due to the fact you have no idea which card you're getting.  As for "legal standpoint", that is up to the federal and state governments to set the threshold.

  Your point can be carried over to what is legal or illegal for Drugs, alcohol,  or you fill in the blank.  There is no question that it can be abused, but again up to the Federal or state government to determine level of acceptance.

VR, 

My point was that sports cards aren't considered gambling.  And have been around a very long time.

Mostly that gambling doesn't seem to be defined very consistently.

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6 minutes ago, Viper069 said:

It's no different than playing the slots.

Basically correct.

2 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

I disagreee, the slots have known, regulated, odds. In some countries, the amount you can spend on one arm bandits/slot machines is also limited. WOWS crates are unregulated, with unknown odds, with zero limits on how much players can spend.

  So you disagree that it's not gambling.   Whether it's regulated, illegal, or accepted "gambling"...it's still gambling in this case.  Viper's point is that it's gambling, nothing more.

vr,. 

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A very merry Xmas from WOWS, gamble a few bucks on our crates :

bad-santa.jpg

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Movies are not nor ever have been gambling, @NoZoupForYou. That's a pretty awful analogy that I'm a little angry to see you make.

 

You do not "gamble" that a movie will be worth your money. You're given trailers, advertising, and reviews that can help you make an informed decision. In order for it to be an appropriate analogy, movies would have to be a blind experience-- You don't even get to pick what movie you see, it's just randomly selected from a list. Sometimes you get Shawshank, sometimes you get Troll 2.

 

Since this is not how movies work or have ever worked, claiming movies are gambling is abhorrently disingenuous.

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1 minute ago, TexJapan said:

 

Basically correct.

  So you disagree that it's not gambling.   Whether it's regulated, illegal, or accepted "gambling"...it's still gambling in this case.  Viper's point is that it's gambling, nothing more.

vr,. 

You misunderstand my viewpoint.

It isn't gambling, because gambling is regulated. Because gambling has known, verifiable, supervised, odds. Nobody outside WOWS knows the crate odds, nobody knows who controls and adjusts those odds, nobody knows how those odds are treated by the client or server. Gambling is more honest than WOWS crates.

bad-santa.jpg

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1 minute ago, LoveBote said:

Because gambling has known, verifiable, supervised, odds.

Are you certain of this? ABSOLUTELY certain?

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But @NoZoupForYou whether we call the crates, gambling or not, is this forum mature enough to discuss the potentially negative effects of these crates? Gambling and similar are known to be addictive, to cause or aggravate poverty, to cause subsequent social strife. Gambling is not a gift. It is theft.

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1 minute ago, LoveBote said:

You misunderstand my viewpoint.

It isn't gambling, because gambling is regulated. Because gambling has known, verifiable, supervised, odds. Nobody outside WOWS knows the crate odds, nobody knows who controls and adjusts those odds, nobody knows how those odds are treated by the client or server. Gambling is more honest than WOWS crates.

bad-santa.jpg

Hmmm, so the Government (whatever level you choose) will tell me what is "gambling".   My point is that the government will inform me what is legal or illegal.  Hence my point on "accepted" levels of gambling that does not warrant government intervention.

vr,

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2 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Are you certain of this? ABSOLUTELY certain?

yes.

At least in the EU, where I live. I have no idea how it works in Las Vegas. That's your call.

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3 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

My point was that sports cards aren't considered gambling.  And have been around a very long time.

Mostly that gambling doesn't seem to be defined very consistently.

It's definitely a loose position.     I was originally going to argue against the sports card argument, since you absolutely get what you pay for.   You buy a 25-card pack, you get 25 cards.   The value is determined outside those cards (collectors, owners, market).

But, as I thought of the different programs throughout the years, I participated in many things that could be considered gambling.     McDonald's Monopoly game, free stuff in cereal boxes, grocery store contests (buy this product, get a chance).   Hell, I was indoctrinated at the movies with Wonka's golden ticket.    So, even getting a tangible product in exchange for cash, if there's a chance element associated with it, I guess it could meet the definition of gambling.

So, the definition seems loose, and tends to change on the social climate.     I could probably compare the santa crates to the examples above - we get virtual goods (guaranteed) for our purchase.   It's mostly camo, but also can contain other "more valuable" items.    We buy a 20 pack of crates, we're going to get 20 items.

So, what steers the social climate against loot boxes, but welcomes other types of similar-context contests?   Is it because children could be involved?     Dunno.   That didn't stop me from demolishing that box of Capn Crunch so that I could get another box (and another chance).

 

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Yes, it is gambling. 

Any time you have to put money down for a 'luck' chance of getting something in return of equal or greater value it is gambling. 

People paying for boxes and getting signals worth cents = gambling. 

People paying for boxes and getting ships worth lots more than what they paid for the box = gambling. 

 

Every time you play a slot machine or Blackjack you are betting money in return for a chance to get something in return..or lose the money you put in. 

 

Thing is, companies like EA and WG will use sleazeball legalese technicalities to call what they do 'not gambling' ... by raising the price of the least expensive items you can get in said gambling boxes to equal or greater value thus the word of law considers it a purchase not gambling because you are getting something worth your money or better. 

Unlike Blackjack for example, if a Casino made minimum bet be $5 and you get $5 no matter the result of your hand then the casino would never make money no matter what. But WG and EA and such, actually KEEP your $5 because the digital item costs them zero dollars, literally, to offer. Thats how the 'you're gambling but not really but we still keep your money' works. 

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First of all, yeah it's obviously the mean, bad EU that has a problem with lootboxes, this is why they are already regulated in Asia and the FTC has agreed to investigate lootboxes. In EU two countries have banned lootboxes in select games. Belgium and Netherlands. While there is interest in expanding these regulations for all of EU you can't generalize to press a point. A 2 minute research could have given you the exact and objective info to inform your subscribers. Otherwise you are starting a video and basing your arguments on misinformation. This in turn undermines most of your points.

Regarding the movie analogy, literally by the first day of a movie screening you get thousand reviews telling you if you will get your money's worth. But this is a universal outcome, whereas each lootbox drop is unique.

Regarding the sports cards you have a certain point, but I don't remember aggressive advertising being shoved down my throat as we got here. Going to the wiki to check something greeted me with this:

561586165_Screenshot_2018-12-10Premiumships-GlobalwikiWargamingnet.thumb.png.cc14880a23ae36333ef23318290ffaba.png

 

In essence at each and every turn you are told lootboxes are good and that you are pushed to it in the end, even if you don't have an addictive personality.

But let's say lootboxes aren't gambling. Isn't the non disclosure of chances for specific drops something negative that should be considered and fought against?

Edited by warheart1992

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