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Ace_04

Yahagi and Japanese CL's

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Good morning!

As most of us already know, the Japanese light cruiser Yahagi will be making a near future appearance in WoWS:

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With that being said, could this signal a possible light cruiser sub-branch into the IJN tech tree?  And if so, is there really enough content to run it from T5 to T10, or would it be abbreviated like the second IJN DD line was pre-Kitikaze/Harugumo?  From what I can see, the Yahagi and Agano classes were the last real light cruisers built by the Japanese navy in WWII, so unless there are several more paper ships on the docket, I'm not sure how this line fills out to the end.

Same train of thought goes for a Royal Navy heavy-cruiser sub branch, I suppose as well.

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Its unlikely that IJN CL will be able to hit the full line unless WG have to summon fictional design from FSB since IJN do not take emphasis on CL by their doctrine.

Nagara And Sendai will struggle a lot if they were put on T5.

Agano (or Yahagi) will struggle like those on Sendai and Nagara. In T5 but still doable if ship get artificial buffs or gimmicks. Kai designs may sit on this tier and still on weak side against things like furutaka konigsberg or even omaha. 

Oyodo is too weak for T6 yet her AA rivals those on T8 (no torpedo) 

Mogami is at t8 and by intention she was mean to be CA. 

RN CA has more chance to fill the line than IJN CL imo.

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T5 - Agano

T6 - C44 design 'Agano Kai proposal

T7 - Probably some sort of 4x3 155mm paper design. 

T8 - Mogami moved to CL tree without  change. Takao becomes T8 CA.

T9 - paper ship

T10 - paper ship

 

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1 hour ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

T5 - Agano

T6 - C44 design 'Agano Kai proposal

T7 - Probably some sort of 4x3 155mm paper design. 

T8 - Mogami moved to CL tree without  change. Takao becomes T8 CA.

T9 - paper ship

T10 - paper ship

 

Exactly this :Smile_coin:

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3 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

T5 - Agano

T6 - C44 design 'Agano Kai proposal

T7 - Probably some sort of 4x3 155mm paper design. 

T8 - Mogami moved to CL tree without  change. Takao becomes T8 CA.

T9 - paper ship

T10 - paper ship

I like that idea about the T8 swap.  

Any chance a non-Alpha Iwaki maybe makes a lower tier appearance?

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2 hours ago, Weapon_of_Proliferation said:

Would scouting cruisers fit into this tech tree?

I envision weak guns for the tier, but 2 fighter consumables and a spotter.

Japan doesn't have scouting cruisers.

and even if they did, they are already in the game. AKA Tenryu and Kuma

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Every tech tree line doesn't have too go to tier 10 to exist. Infact unique lines could be used to branch over to different ship lines or a route to skip certain ships.

The IJN CL line could branch off at t4 and fold back into the line at t7/8.

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5 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

Every tech tree line doesn't have too go to tier 10 to exist. Infact unique lines could be used to branch over to different ship lines or a route to skip certain ships.

The IJN CL line could branch off at t4 and fold back into the line at t7/8.

but just Imagine Zao with 4x Quintuple 155mm guns! :Smile_trollface:

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1 minute ago, MrDeaf said:

but just Imagine Zao with 4x Quintuple 155mm guns! :Smile_trollface:

Im sorry but im not a fan of paper ships. I'd wrather have ships actually built or building armed with 20km long lance torpedoes than a napkin HE spammer. 

Thats why every line shouldn't be going to tier 10nand instead branching into other tiers.

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19 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Japan doesn't have scouting cruisers.

and even if they did, they are already in the game. AKA Tenryu and Kuma

I thought he meant Tone,  but clearly not a CL.

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Tier V thru Tier X?  No.

 

You'd be hard pressed to milk historical IJN CLs to somehow be in Tier VI.  Mogami-class in 155mm configuration is already in the game in Tier VIII.  The big problem was the IJN simply didn't throw as much love and attention in armament the same way they did with their CAs.  IJN CAs are literally overstuffed with guns and torpedoes.  IJN CLs are extremely, poorly armed, except in torpedo armament with Long Lances for some of them.  But Guns?  They eventually fall behind big time.  Going to Tier X would require more science fiction than Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, and Babylon 5 put together.

 

Tier III Tenryu-class 1920 - Ingame already

140mm 4x1

533mm Torpedoes 4x2

Tier IV Kuma-class 1920 - Ingame already

140mm 7x1 <- Get used to this gun configuration.

533mm Torpedoes 4x2

Nagara-class 1920 - Repeat of Kuma-class basically.

140mm 7x1

610mm Torpedoes 4x2 - First of their Cruisers to equip Long Lances

Sendai-class 1924 - Configuration of Naka in 1941 below:

140mm 7x1

610mm Torpedoes 4x2

 

The above IJN CLs are fine for Tier III-IV.

 

Agano-class 1942 - One of the last IJN CL-classes of WWII.  And it's Tier V material.

WG DevBlog Entry

610mm Torpedoes 2x4

Oyodo 1943 - Derivative of Agano and was designed as a command ship for subs.  It's extremely, poorly armed.  I saw some people recommend this ship for Tier VII :Smile_veryhappy:

155mm 2x3 - Same guns found on Mogami-class in 155mm "Treaty Cheating" configuration.

... And that's it.  Just some AA guns, but that's it.  Not even torpedoes.

 

Again, 155mm-Mogami is already present in the game.  The IJN had zero intention of keeping the 155mm guns and had plans all along to swap them out for 203mm guns.

 

Now consider some of the Tier VI Cruiser competition and their firepower:

Aoba 203mm 3x2 , 610mm Torps 4x2

Pensacola 203mm 2x2 / 2x3.  Hard hitting guns in this tier

Dallas 152mm 2x2 / 2x3

Nurnberg 150mm 3x3, 533mm Torpedoes 2x3

Budyonny 152mm 3x3, 533mm Torpedoes 2x5

I'll just stop now.  It's already gotten out of hand.

 

Then if you want to go Tier VII, you got Helena, Boise / NdJ.  Those were real.  Cleveland was real.  Worcester was real.  Another problem is that the vast majority of navies didn't devote too much time, development, resources for newer CLs leading into and through WWII.  But once we're outside these, you're crossing into Science Fiction land if trying to stretch things out for Tier X.

 

I can see a bunch of Premium IJN CLs in Tier IV, maybe V.  There's a lot of history there, especially in the Sendai-class.  Any higher past Tier V and it's clear they'll need" Super Fantasy IJN Won The War Without a Shadow of a Doubt" kind of "refits."  Or straight up bullsh*t designs stretched from Tier VI thru Tier X.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Kitakami (and/or her sister Oi) would have fit into this branch somewhere as well if it wasn't outlawed from the game ages ago.

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20 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

Japan doesn't have scouting cruisers.

and even if they did, they are already in the game. AKA Tenryu and Kuma

"Like the Tone-class heavy cruisers, the Ōyodo-class ships were intended to be scouting cruisers and hence the entire deck of the ship aft of the superstructure was devoted to aircraft facilities."

Don't worry MrDeaf,, I like the feeling of somebody trying to make me look stupid, I'm totally used to it.

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15 minutes ago, Weapon_of_Proliferation said:

"Like the Tone-class heavy cruisers, the Ōyodo-class ships were intended to be scouting cruisers and hence the entire deck of the ship aft of the superstructure was devoted to aircraft facilities."

Don't worry MrDeaf,, I like the feeling of somebody trying to make me look stupid, I'm totally used to it.

Those are more like Cruisers with improved aviation facilities for launching scouting aircraft, rather than the English definition of "scouting cruiser", which is what Leone is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_cruiser

" A scout cruiser was a type of warship of the early 20th Century, which were smaller, faster, more lightly armed and armoured than protected cruisers or light cruisers, but larger than contemporary destroyers. "

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On 12/8/2018 at 9:11 AM, New_Horizontal said:

Its unlikely that IJN CL will be able to hit the full line unless WG have to summon fictional design from FSB since IJN do not take emphasis on CL by their doctrine.

Nagara And Sendai will struggle a lot if they were put on T5.

Agano (or Yahagi) will struggle like those on Sendai and Nagara. In T5 but still doable if ship get artificial buffs or gimmicks. Kai designs may sit on this tier and still on weak side against things like furutaka konigsberg or even omaha. 

Oyodo is too weak for T6 yet her AA rivals those on T8 (no torpedo) 

Mogami is at t8 and by intention she was mean to be CA. 

RN CA has more chance to fill the line than IJN CL imo.

 

The Japanese abandoned all pretence of light cruisers before the war, and WG doesn't like incomplete lines any more (which is why we have Kitikaze and Harugumo at all). Do we even have paper concept designs to the level of Izumo, or would they have to be complete fantasy?

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38 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

 

The Japanese abandoned all pretence of light cruisers before the war, and WG doesn't like incomplete lines any more (which is why we have Kitikaze and Harugumo at all). Do we even have paper concept designs to the level of Izumo, or would they have to be complete fantasy?

IJN CL Tech tree
T3: Tenryu-class
T4: Kuma-class, Nagara-class, Sendai-class
T5: Agano-class
T6: Kai-Agano, with 4x Twin 152mm/50 main guns (same guns as Agano), 4x Twin 76mm/65 DP mounts, 2x 610mm Quad torp launchers, 37.5 knots top speed
T7: not sure, but knowing WG, nerfed Mogami-class
T8: Mogami-class
T9: wouldn't be that hard, because the 155mm turrets fit on Ibuki too. Ibuki had a few sister ships
T10: very fantasy

Others that don't quite fit in
No.815: 4x Twin 100mm/65, 5800t displacement, catapult launcher (Akizuki with catapult launcher, instead of torps)
Ooyodo: 2x Triple 155mm, 11,420t displacement
No.137 (Niiyodo): 12x Twin 100mm/65

Actually, Harugumo layout is pure fantasy, but Akizuki and Kitakaze were slated to get Type5 127mm/50 DP twin turrets, which are on par with USN 127mm/54.

Edited by MrDeaf

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For T10 I can imagine them giving the Zao 155mm Mogami turrets with rate of fire and (massive) rotation buffs. Perhaps not Worcester-level rains of fire, but a respectable proportion above Cleveland.

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You could make it work, some people have reasonable ideas here.

I can't say I feel much enthusiasm for a line which will be 4 repeats of ships already in game (Kuma, Tenryu, Mogami, Agano) and 4 paperships. That seems rather lackluster overall.

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Not really.  The IJN didn't believe in light cruisers, and had no advanced designs.  So, you're going to end up with a lot of paper.

The best way to do it, would be to use Agano at T5, Agano-kai (an 8 gun ship) at T6.  Maybe you can figure out a way to cram 155s on it instead of the garbage 152s.  Since it's paper anyways, why not?  Remove Mogami from the heavy cruiser line and put it back where it was in beta (and where it should have stayed in beta) at T7 with the proper ROF and triple torpedo launchers.  Replace Mogami at T8 in the heavy cruiser line with Takao.

After Mogami, you get into the fiction.  I'd probably do a kit-bash Ibuki with juiced up ROF and better torpedo launch angles.  At t9, I'd take the same basic design, and make the guns into DP autoloaders in twin turrets.  For t10 something zao-esque with 4 triple 155 DP autoloaders.

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To be honest, you'd be hard-pressed, and WG would have to invent a number of ships (tier IX & X, perhaps VII).

The big issue is, nevermind ships, in many cases the designs just don't exist. Agano at V, Kai-Agano at VI, and Mogami at VIII with Takao replacing her in the CA is an easy move - but there's still the issue of VII, and of course nothing more capable than Mogami exists.

That being said, WG could always great fake ships - Ibuki 155mm and perhaps high-RoF 155mm Zao.

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23 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Kitakami (and/or her sister Oi) would have fit into this branch somewhere as well if it wasn't outlawed from the game ages ago.

Kitakami and Oi in the refit people want, are basically Kuma-class CLs with tons of Long Lances.  And WG took away KitKat even before Open Beta.

 

People bash the Russians for Paper Ships, but an IJN CL Line to Tier X will be Science Fiction also.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:02 AM, MrDeaf said:

but just Imagine Zao with 4x Quintuple 155mm guns! :Smile_trollface:

:cap_haloween::cap_fainting:

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