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Sumseaman

If hunting ships, back off on the crates a tad....CV rework is going to change things quite a bit

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I made a good haul last year with the crates (Nikolai, Kami etc. all that supposed OP crap) with only around 15 large purchased. The coming rework will likely surge the carrier population. Perhaps it won't. If it does however the premiums that are now strong could change quite a bit if CVs are a regular occurrence. Concealment wont be as it once was and ships not sporting decent AA will be dependent on those that do. In short don't desire a ship because it is considered OP. Look for those that suite your playstyle as that rarely changes. OP premiums are OP due to blanket changes to mechanics and in WoWs they are rarely altered along with their tech tree counterparts. Belfast is a good example. It is still strong but twice took hits to its capability when stealth fire was removed then smoke concealment was nerfed. Saipan on the other hand just  went up and up and up with changes to carriers (strafe mechanic, aircraft loadouts). Really doubt it will retain its advantage it now enjoys when it's moved to tier 8 and god knows that else happens to it. The carrier rework is coming early next year short of some disaster. Be prepared. That being said the Santa crates are the best value for money product that WG releases so long as you want and can use all they provide. Congrats to all those who have gotten good hauls so far but please first designate an amount of crates you are going to buy within reason and stop at that. Don't hunt stuff you think will give you an edge. I'm crap with BBs and torp DDs and ships like the Nik and Kami don't aid my skill all that much simply as my high tier play is focused elsewhere. Cheers and Merry Xmas (in a couple of weeks)!

Edited by Sumwunskum
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Thought I'd add a quick list as how strong ships may suffer;

 

- Kutuzov/Belfast - Blind Torpedoed/Bombed/Rocketed sitting in smoke. BF as good AA but still...focused by good carrier players. Main battery fire is easier to spot in smoke with the rework.

- Nikolai - Highly vulnerable to aircraft. Focused by good carrier players (as it is now when frequent low tier carriers appear).

- Kami - Spotted and rocketed trying to close with large ships. 

- Musashi - Weak AA. Focused by carriers. I know the Mus is still available with coal but there might be peeps trying to score her in a crate if they don't think they'll have enough coal before she's removed. Even Kaga now at tier 7 nails this thing.

- The Missouri is hard to tell. Good AA of course but all BBs will suffer a bit if aircraft become more commonplace. 

Still thinking. 

Edited by Sumwunskum
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3 minutes ago, Sumwunskum said:

there might be peeps trying to score her in a crate if they don't think they'll have enough coal before she's removed.

I hope they don't try too hard. If Musashi is what they want, there's a point beyond which it's easier just to buy doubloons and convert elite XP (unless of course their account is so relatively new they don't have enough of that, or enough left after using it on other things).

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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6 minutes ago, Sumwunskum said:

Thought I'd add a quick list as how strong ships may suffer;

 

- Kutuzov/Belfast - Blind Torpedoed/Bombed/Rocketed sitting in smoke. BF as good AA but still...focused by good carrier players. Main battery fire is easier to spot in smoke with the rework.

- Nikolai - Highly vulnerable to aircraft. Focused by good carrier players (as it is now when frequent low tier carriers appear).

- Kami - Spotted and rocketed trying to close with large ships. 

- Musashi - Weak AA. Focused by carriers. I know the Mus is still available with coal but there might be peeps trying to score her in a crate if they don't think they'll have enough coal before she's removed. Even Kaga now at tier 7 nails this thing.

Still thinking. 

Your list doesn't really contain any new vulnerabilities that weren't there before?

If you are saying that CVs will be even more powerful than before then I'll wait to see what happens before getting worried too much. :Smile_honoring:

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2 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I hope they don't try too hard. If Musashi is what they want, there's a point beyond which it's easier just to buy doubloons and convert elite XP (unless of course their account is so relatively new they don't have enough of that, or enough left after using it on other things).

Yes very good point. Better way to do it! Basically many of these OP ships are going to take a slide. Some worse than others. They will still be strong in their own way but not as they are even now. Maybe only 2-3 months then who knows. Hope my down vote (not from you Cthulhu) was because of some distaste for the rework and not for trying to state truth!

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5 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Your list doesn't really contain any new vulnerabilities that weren't there before?

If you are saying that CVs will be even more powerful than before then I'll wait to see what happens before getting worried too much. :Smile_honoring:

The upside for Cv players is that every attack is an exquisitely tuned manual attack.

The downside is that the skill set is different (even the current manual attack is to a certain extent automated), and not all the CV unicums are going to have that skill set.

The other downside is that the CV air package can only be in one place at a time, and its ability to loiter is reduced AFAIK.

I think it will all balance out.

 

@Sumwunskum No, the downvote wasn't from me. Even if I disagreed, which I don't, you've stated a viewpoint I hold to be rational and defensible.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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8 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Your list doesn't really contain any new vulnerabilities that weren't there before?

If you are saying that CVs will be even more powerful than before then I'll wait to see what happens before getting worried too much. :Smile_honoring:

The weaknesses are there but will be amplified quite a bit if there are carriers in most matches as opposed to rarely. The rework squadrons can also exploit these weaknesses more than current carriers i.e destroyers eating rocket salvos instead of being cross dropped. Trust me that's harder to avoid. Also not all US carriers can cross drop. I'd say one of the biggest scores in the crates is the Atlanta if indeed things pan out the way the rework is intended. 

Edited by Sumwunskum

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9 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I hope they don't try too hard. If Musashi is what they want, there's a point beyond which it's easier just to buy doubloons and convert elite XP (unless of course their account is so relatively new they don't have enough of that, or enough left after using it on other things).

Im going to buy 20 or maybe 40 more mega crates. Im going in knowing i will probably not get a ship but alot of good xp items for grinding. After that im done. NO MORE

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4 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The upside for Cv players is that every attack is an exquisitely tuned manual attack.

The downside is that the skill set is different (even the current manual attack is to a certain extent automated), and not all the CV unicums are going to have that skill set.

The other downside is that the CV air package can only be in one place at a time, and its ability to loiter is reduced AFAIK.

I think it will all balance out.

Exactly, pros and cons; that's why I'll wait and see what happens. :Smile_honoring:

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5 minutes ago, Sumwunskum said:

The weaknesses are there but will be amplified quite a bit if there are carriers in most matches as opposed to rarely. The rework squadrons can also exploit these weaknesses more than current carriers i.e destroyers eating rocket salvos instead of being cross dropped. Trust me that's harder to avoid. Also not all US carriers can cross drop.

Again, rather than approach it expecting the worst, I'd prefer to wait and see. Unlike a direct nerf or buff this is an introduction of a new play style to the game so I'm hoping for something new and challenging rather than expecting the worst from the off. :Smile_honoring:

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13 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

Im going to buy 20 or maybe 40 more mega crates. Im going in knowing i will probably not get a ship but alot of good xp items for grinding. After that im done. NO MORE

I'd say you would def get a ship (likely more) in that load if the crates are like they were last year or what people are currently getting now :) Just worrying that people think 'Yay I scored this or that in a crate' then in a few months BLAP when the rework perhaps makes carriers more potent against them. Again it's not even the potency but the much higher likely presence.

Edited by Sumwunskum

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53 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Your list doesn't really contain any new vulnerabilities that weren't there before?

If you are saying that CVs will be even more powerful than before then I'll wait to see what happens before getting worried too much. :Smile_honoring:

Exactly, who knows and it's certainly not going to be the game changer it was …  

Assuming they ever do fix them, who still plays CVs - very few

Worry about the present and save the hypotheticals

Edited by Commander_367

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I think this rework is the death knell for CVs... I hope so anyways.... agree with other posters...AA vulnerable ships will stay that way...nothing changes.  Crates are for gamblers and folks that just like to open stuff and they will care nothing about your warnings :)

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26 minutes ago, Commander_367 said:

Exactly, who knows and it's certainly not going to be the game changer it was …  

Assuming they ever do fix them, who still plays CVs - very few

Worry about the present and save the hypotheticals

Yeah I know what you mean. It is however perhaps more toward the likely than completely hypothetical. It has been stated many times that more carriers is what WG want. This happened it WoT before too. People broke the bank trying to get certain pref MM tanks to be met with a looming nerf. Just foresee players rolling the dice over and over to get a powerful ship only for the meta to really change and point the finger at carriers (which they will have cause to). Oh well. I'm a carrier player now and look forward to the rework honestly. I have my reasons and some people perhaps share them. I don't like being filthy in a Kaga or Enterprise and agree that the rework should address carrier potency and skill gap. I also know what ships to target and that I suppose will remain. That Kaga bleeds karma more than the Mo prints credits!

Edited by Sumwunskum
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35 minutes ago, Sumwunskum said:

Thought I'd add a quick list as how strong ships may suffer;

 

- Kutuzov/Belfast - Blind Torpedoed/Bombed/Rocketed sitting in smoke. BF as good AA but still...focused by good carrier players. Main battery fire is easier to spot in smoke with the rework.

- Nikolai - Highly vulnerable to aircraft. Focused by good carrier players (as it is now when frequent low tier carriers appear).

- Kami - Spotted and rocketed trying to close with large ships. 

- Musashi - Weak AA. Focused by carriers. I know the Mus is still available with coal but there might be peeps trying to score her in a crate if they don't think they'll have enough coal before she's removed. Even Kaga now at tier 7 nails this thing.

- The Missouri is hard to tell. Good AA of course but all BBs will suffer a bit if aircraft become more commonplace. 

Still thinking. 

Kutuzov has really good AA and will excel, Belfast is probably ok. CV's are going to be able to do less to them after the rework than before. They just got buffed. No cross dropping torps though smoke.

Nikolai, if the tier 4 CV's don't change, won't care. A tier 4 CV can't do enough damage over a 20 minute match to sink her. The purpose of the tier 4 CV's appears to be to torture players that might be interested in CV for the two tiers worth they are stuck with them till they get a real ship. She can't see a functional carrier from tier 6, so that's not a problem. This is a major buff for her.

Kamikaze  probably doesn't care much either, other than the nuisance of rocket attack, she's so small as to be nearly immune to aircraft aside from spotting, a big plus for her. No more cross drops. This is a buff for her, she can go kill carriers that can't defend themselves and probably have no idea they are under attack until the torps hit.

Musashi, that's her balance point, she's a Yamato with worse secondaries and AA, she's a tier 10 ship with tier 6 defenses. Buddy up with a cruiser, or hopefully a smart friendly CV will dump patrol fighters over you, knowing who the enemy CV is coming for. A Ranger could kill her before, it didn't take a Kaga. If there is no CV in a match, she's a tier 10. Nothing new here.

Missouri will be no worse off than before, she has really nice AA, and CV's will lose their ability to smash ships. Sounds like a buff to me.

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23 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Kutuzov has really good AA and will excel, Belfast is probably ok. CV's are going to be able to do less to them after the rework than before. They just got buffed. No cross dropping torps though smoke.

Nikolai, if the tier 4 CV's don't change, won't care. A tier 4 CV can't do enough damage over a 20 minute match to sink her. The purpose of the tier 4 CV's appears to be to torture players that might be interested in CV for the two tiers worth they are stuck with them till they get a real ship. She can't see a functional carrier from tier 6, so that's not a problem. This is a major buff for her.

Kamikaze  probably doesn't care much either, other than the nuisance of rocket attack, she's so small as to be nearly immune to aircraft aside from spotting, a big plus for her. No more cross drops. This is a buff for her, she can go kill carriers that can't defend themselves and probably have no idea they are under attack until the torps hit.

Musashi, that's her balance point, she's a Yamato with worse secondaries and AA, she's a tier 10 ship with tier 6 defenses. Buddy up with a cruiser, or hopefully a smart friendly CV will dump patrol fighters over you, knowing who the enemy CV is coming for. A Ranger could kill her before, it didn't take a Kaga. If there is no CV in a match, she's a tier 10. Nothing new here.

Missouri will be no worse off than before, she has really nice AA, and CV's will lose their ability to smash ships. Sounds like a buff to me.

Yes some good points though as I said it's not so much the potency issue but more the (if WG have there supposed way) near guaranteed presence of carriers. It's now easier to blind bomb (I've tried it plus more bombs do hit) and those attack aircraft are the new cap bullies. Yeah they can truly contest but a rocket salvo resets those caps bigtime. I really hope we do see more use for cruisers with this too. That would be a big plus if people buddy up more.  I don't see it as much as I'd like when playing carriers. These ships will take a hit if every game has a CV or two.....or even three. I don't know of course if that's what will make it to live but the current tests have it that way. Attack aircraft go up first and go for the nearest strong destroyer. Higher tiers are more potent but apparently that's going to transcend to lowers. The Kami and Nik....first thing I'd go for. Cross drops have been fairly easy to dodge by good players but that 3 wave attack just takes you out of the game while its occurring. Trust me it's bloody terrifying to experience. Yeah the alpha is gone but boy can you wither away with the fires and floods. I've also seen frequent and very successful cross drops anyway by multiple carriers.

Edited by Sumwunskum

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50 minutes ago, Sumwunskum said:

Yeah I know what you mean. It is however perhaps more toward the likely than completely hypothetical. It has been stated many times that more carriers is what WG want. This happened it WoT before too. People broke the bank trying to get certain pref MM tanks to be met with a looming nerf. Just foresee players rolling the dice over and over to get a powerful ship only for the meta to really change and point the finger at carriers (which they will have cause to). Oh well. I'm a carrier player now and look forward to the rework honestly. I have my reasons and some people perhaps share them. I don't like being filthy in a Kaga or Enterprise and agree that the rework should address carrier potency and skill gap. I also know what ships to target and that I suppose will remain. That Kaga bleeds karma more than the Mo prints credits!

Hypothetical = Alaska …

ie. does not exist :) 

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Also perhaps people still have the mindset of a single carrier beyond tier 6. Try 3 per team of the pricks zooming around with highly micro managed squadrons dumping fighters everywhere. Then there are the cat aircraft too that are far more useful. The map is just as lit up as it is now. That could soon be every game. Not saying it isn't fun....it's a blast but it could mean there's some bigtime adjusting to the strengths of the for mentioned ships. Belfast is known for its smoke/concealment (and radar that is soon taking a small hit), not AA really. Kutuzov is, lets face it, smoke. Nik....armour that bounces near everything but put enough floods/fires on her down she goes. Kami just wont be as effective if there are 3 enemy squadrons flying around whether they are engaged by fighters or not. The weaknesses of these ships are something that the new aircraft excel at exploiting and possibly they will be there waiting in every match.

Edited by Sumwunskum

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21 minutes ago, Sumwunskum said:

Yes some good points though as I said it's not so much the potency issue but more the (if WG have there supposed way) near guaranteed presence of carriers. It's now easier to blind bomb (I've tried it plus more bombs do hit) and those attack aircraft are the new cap bullies. Yeah they can truly contest but a rocket salvo resets those caps bigtime. I really hope we do see more use for cruisers with this too. That would be a big plus if people buddy up more.  I don't see it as much as I'd like when playing carriers. These ships will take a hit if every game has a CV or two.....or even three. I don't know of course if that's what will make it to live but the current tests have it that way. Attack aircraft go up first and go for the nearest strong destroyer. Higher tiers are more potent but apparently that's going to transcend to lowers. The Kami and Nik....first thing I'd go for. Cross drops have been fairly easy to dodge by good players but that 3 wave attack just takes you out of the game while its occurring. Trust me it's bloody terrifying to experience. Yeah the alpha is gone but boy can you wither away with the fires and floods. I've also seen frequent and very successful cross drops anyway by multiple carriers.

The Kami won't be seeing anything that can drop more than two torps at a time, and with it's speed and stealth, it'll be a nightmare for the CV's that were just on test to hit if it was driving in a straight line. The worst thing for the Kami to do to itself is go sit in a smoke cloud and try and cap, it needs to go CV hunting. It will take 2 or 3 CV's ganging up on a Kami to kill it reliably, one to camp over top of it so the others can see it to even line up and attack it. The Kami will stay OP.

As I said, the Nikolai just doesn't care. The tier 4 CV's that were tested don't have torpedo bombers, the Hosho's AP bombs are laughable, and Langley is a little better off because it can cause fires. The rockets at tier 4 just don't do enough to something with armor, and the Nikolai has no superstructure to speak of. Tier 4's protected match making will keep it from seeing a Ranger or Ryujo, either of which would just torp it to death and be done with it. The only way a Nikolai will ever be in trouble with an carrier is if it fail platoons with a tier 5, and gets sucked into a tier 6 or 7 match, where it would probably be doomed anyway. It didn't have to contend with Mutsu or Wee-Vee back in the days when it could see tier 6's, the queen of low tier overmatch was Warspite back then, and there just wasn't that many of them. If 3 or 4 tier 4 CV's ganged up on one, they might sink it eventually, but the complete lack of damage output on them pretty much limits tier 4 CV's to spotting, scouting, and resetting caps.

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Overlooked in all of this is that, as things stand, torp and bomb damage is much reduced from what people are used to. 

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As I said earlier apparently the relative damage done in higher tiers is going to transcend down to tiers 4-6 but yeah that's still an if. If it indeed doesn't perhaps the Kami and Nik will remain OP. I have them both so no arguments here! It's not really the raw or torp/bomb damage just the fires/floods. I will agree that the AP bombs are crap right now.

Edited by Sumwunskum

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