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[Discussion] Torpedo Reload Discrepancies For Fletcher and Chung Mu

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Ship Torpedo Tubes Layout Torpedo Reload (Base Value) Damage
Tashkent

3 x 3

53-36 mod. 2 69s 15,100
Z-46 2 x 4 G7 Wolfsbarsch 90s 14,400
Chung Mu 2 x 5 Mk16 mod. 1 (DW) 106s

19,033

Fletcher 2 x 5 Mk16 mod. 1 106s 19,033
Yuugumo 2 x 4 Type93 mod. 3 114s 23,766
Jutland 2 x 5 533 mm Mk IX 120s 15,533
Udaloi 3 x 5 53-49M 129s 14,600
Kitakaze 1 x 6 Type93 mod. 3 171s 23,766

(The table uses the top torpedo upgrade, or the torpedo most commonly used in the case of the IJN DDs. The table only considers tech-tree DDs)

 

The thing I've noticed with the Fletcher (and Chung Mu by extension, since Chung Mu is basically a Fletcher-class, and is almost identical to Fletcher in the game save for a couple of stat differences and deepwater variant of the torps) is that they defy WG's standard of torpedo reload. As one goes up the tech tree, it can be seen that there is a correlation between torpedo layout and torpedo reload i.e. the more torpedoes a launcher has, the longer the reload is. This trend is noticeable starting Tier 6, where DDs with three torps per launcher has a shorter cooldown (ex. Fubuki, 3x3 torp layout, 76s base cooldown) compared to DDs with five torps per launcher(ex. Icarus, 2x5 torp layout, 120s cooldown). The observed baseline for torpedo reload is that three torps per launcher has 76s cooldown, four torps per launcher has 90s cooldown, and 5 torps per launcher has 120s cooldown, with variations in cooldown depending on tier. This trend continues to be followed until Tier 10, with some exceptions. Fletcher's and Chung Mu's Mk16 mod1 torps reload too fast at 106s, considering both have five torpedoes per launcher setup.

The reason why I picked these DDs is that their torpedoes are "too good". Fletcher and Chung Mu are DD platforms that has good speed, good rudder shift and turning cicles, and armed with the famous USN DD guns that has fast reload and rotation that are lethal anti-DD weapons. Both DDs also have utilities in the form of DFAA for Fletcher and Radar for Chung Mu, making them incredibly rounded DDs that will sometimes overshadow the Japanese DDs in the "torpedoboat" role, since they output more damage in a single salvo at 190,330 dmg from 10 torpedoes than the 190, 128 dmg from 8 torpedoes than the Yuugumo (Yuugumo could mount TRB and double its output, but TRB will cooldown after Yuugumo launches around two salvoes, giving the faster-reloading Fletcher and Chung Mu an edge in outputting torpedoes). There is actually one more DD that has a discrepancy, and that is Ognevoi with 2x5 torpedo layout that deals 15,100dmg and reloads at 92s, which is even faster than the Fletcher and Chung Mu. But this is balanced due to the fact that unlike all the other Russian DDs that emphasize on guns and speed, Ognevoi has few guns (only 2x2 layout compared to the 3x2 or 4x2 layout of the other Russian DDs) and slower speed (only 37knots compared to the usual base 40knot speed of the Russian DDs). In exchange, Ognevoi has the faster torpedo reload along with better stealth (7.74km base stealth compared to the usual 9km stealth of the other Russian tech-tree DDs).

Considering that the American DDs (along with the Russian and Japanese DDs) are the first DD lines in the game, these values could have been the result of balancing between these three DD lines with regards to torps. But with the introduction of newer DD lines, and the line splits for the Japanese and Russian DD lines, WG has been adhering to its "torpedo reload standard". As a result, Fletcher and Chung Mu torpedo reload sticks out like sore thumb.

So how do we bring these DDs in line with the "torpedo reload standard"? This is my idea:

  • Change Fletcher's and Chung Mu's base torpedo reload from 106s to 116 seconds (or 112 seconds at most). The baseline for five-torps-per-launcher reload is 120 seconds starting Tier 6 with Icarus. Since Fletcher and Chung Mu mounts submarine torpedoes, cutting a few seconds off the baseline reload is considered. Also, the new reload is only plus-minus 2 seconds difference to the Japanese mainline DD Yuugumo's torpedo reload, giving the Japanese the edge in torpedoboating more while still making a torpedo-focused build viable.

What are your thoughts on this?

Edited by RyuuohD_NA
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I suppose.  We can't have good USN DDs after all.  Especially the Fletchers.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I suppose.  We can't have good USN DDs after all.  Especially the Fletchers.

They will still be viable for torpedo-focused build. It's only like what, 10 seconds added to the base reload? And only 2 seconds difference to the IJN torpedoboat reload? And you do realize that Fletcher (and Chung Mu) still outputs more torpedoes per salvo than the IJN torpedoboat Yuugumo (bar TRB)? And they have the second highest-damage torps in the tier with better reaction time than the IJN torps?

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1 minute ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

They will still be viable for torpedo-focused build. It's only like what, 10 seconds added to the base reload? And only 2 seconds difference to the IJN torpedoboat reload? And you do realize that Fletcher (and Chung Mu) still outputs more torpedoes per salvo than the IJN torpedoboat Yuugumo (bar TRB)? And they have the second highest-damage torps in the tier with better reaction time than the IJN torps?

You got Torp Reload Booster on Yugumo.  All that goes out the window.

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3 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Considering that the American DDs (along with the Russian and Japanese DDs) are the first DD lines in the game, these values could have been the result of balancing between these three DD lines with regards to torps. But with the introduction of newer DD lines, and the line splits for the Japanese and Russian DD lines, WG has been adhering to its "torpedo reload standard". As a result, Fletcher and Chung Mu torpedo reload sticks out like sore thumb.

I thought the standard was about the '24s per tube' but it is a little more nuanced, not just by 'national flavor' (or dumb intern-level data entry for T-61...).

The historic weight of the torpedo, maybe diameter and maybe more importantly length plays into the reload through some kind of formula so there is a pattern.

The Fletcher's Mk. 16 Mod. 1 weighs 3,922lbs and is 20' 6" long. The reload as you note is 106s or 21.2s/tube.
The Benson's Mk. 15. Mod 3 weighs 3,841lbs and is 24' long. The reload of 122s is 24.4s/tube.
The Yugumo Type 93 Mod 3 weighs 6,173lbs and is 29' 6" long. The reload of 114s is 28.5s/tube.

In that example the Benson torpedo weighs about the same, but is moderately longer (20%). It's just far less capable for its length compared to the Fletcher's later weapon. The Yugumo throws a big, fat and capable torpedo but it's monstrously big.

The Ognevoi has the 53-39 Mod 3 which is still pretty big and is certainly an outlier (4,000lb, 25ft). The German torpedoes were generally lighter and smaller though some of that is national flavor.

 

So there is some method, but a lot of madness. The idea that a bigger torpedo takes longer to reload isn't entirely crazy, and it should be more capable if it's bigger as a general rule, so it does lend to balance, but not to the advantage of Benson and co.

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You got Torp Reload Booster on Yugumo.  All that goes out the window.

The boost of TRB has the drawback of having incredibly long cooldown, in which Yuugumo will be launching two torpedo salvoes without TRB boost.

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tbh, i dont think they really need the nerf(and the gearing since it has fletch torps).  Outside of the alt RU DD which i haven't played yet and dont know much about because its rare for me to see, i think all of the tier 9 DDs are in a good spot.(i dont have the jutland, but it seems solid)  I find them to be very competitive, and some of the bordering as good as their tier 10 "upgrade".  with the BB AP changes, some of the tier 10s got buffed compared to the tier 9s.  The one exception is the tashkent, which was good before its last buff, and got even better with the BB AP changes that the khab is still vulnerable to. 

 

 

personally, i would rather see some of the tier 10 DDs get buffed rather than the tier 9 DDs get nerfed.  Tier for tier, i find tier 9 to be the best balanced tier for DDs, while BBs and cruisers are better balanced at tier 10. 

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5 minutes ago, mofton said:

I thought the standard was about the '24s per tube' but it is a little more nuanced, not just by 'national flavor' (or dumb intern-level data entry for T-61...).

The historic weight of the torpedo, maybe diameter and maybe more importantly length plays into the reload through some kind of formula so there is a pattern.

The Fletcher's Mk. 16 Mod. 1 weighs 3,922lbs and is 20' 6" long. The reload as you note is 106s or 21.2s/tube.
The Benson's Mk. 15. Mod 3 weighs 3,841lbs and is 24' long. The reload of 122s is 24.4s/tube.
The Yugumo Type 93 Mod 3 weighs 6,173lbs and is 29' 6" long. The reload of 114s is 28.5s/tube.

In that example the Benson torpedo weighs about the same, but is moderately longer (20%). It's just far less capable for its length compared to the Fletcher's later weapon. The Yugumo throws a big, fat and capable torpedo but it's monstrously big.

The Ognevoi has the 53-39 Mod 3 which is still pretty big and is certainly an outlier (4,000lb, 25ft). The German torpedoes were generally lighter and smaller though some of that is national flavor.

 

So there is some method, but a lot of madness. The idea that a bigger torpedo takes longer to reload isn't entirely crazy, and it should be more capable if it's bigger as a general rule, so it does lend to balance, but not to the advantage of Benson and co.

We could consider that the Japanese having the biggest torpedo diameter of 610mm is a factor to them having a longer reload, but then comparing it with Jutland, which has the same 533mm diameter torps, there's no reason why the Fletcher torps should have 14s faster reload than Jutland's.

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Don't forget that torpedo speed and range also have to be factored into your calculation.  For example, the Tashkent's 8km 60kt torps are very different from the Fletcher's faster and longer ranged 10.5km 66kt fish.  This is especially important to consider in light of the radar meta.

While we're at it, we should be considering the entire weapons compliment of each ship.  I'll take the Taskent's rail guns over the floaty USN or RN shells any day.  Thus the USN torps have to be better than the Taskent's torps to compensate for their different overall weapons capability.

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6 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

We could consider that the Japanese having the biggest torpedo diameter of 610mm is a factor to them having a longer reload, but then comparing it with Jutland, which has the same 533mm diameter torps, there's no reason why the Fletcher torps should have 14s faster reload than Jutland's.

Jutland's torp is longer than Fletcher's, but slightly shorter than Benson's. In length they go 24' - 23' - 20.5' for corresponding reloads of 122 - 120 - 106s. That seems a reasonable correlation.

Benson gets 5.08s/ft of reload, Jutland 5.27s/ft and Fletcher 5.17s/ft for torpedo reload. Those are pretty similar numbers.

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6 minutes ago, LastoftheFallen said:

Don't forget that torpedo speed and range also have to be factored into your calculation.  For example, the Tashkent's 8km 60kt torps are very different from the Fletcher's faster and longer ranged 10.5km 66kt fish.  This is especially important to consider in light of the radar meta.

Torpedo Speed and range, along with torpedo detection which contributes to reaction time isn't considered in this, as the results still reinfores the fact that the Chung Mu and Fletcher torps are "too good". Take for instance the "torpedo specialist" Yuugumo. She has 12km range, but having 1.7km torpedo detection along with 67 knot speed gives a reaction time of roughly 9 seconds, is the worst among the T9 list. Chung Mu with 10.5km range with 66knot speed and 0.8km detection gives a very low reaction time of around 5 seconds, the best of the tier. Fletcher having the same stats as Chung Mu but 1.4km detection gives a reaction time of around 7 seconds, which is on the upper half of the tier.

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7 hours ago, RyuuohD_NA said:
Ship Torpedo Tubes Layout Torpedo Reload (Base Value) Damage
Tashkent

3 x 3

53-36 mod. 2 69s 15,100
Z-46 2 x 4 G7 Wolfsbarsch 90s 14,400
Chung Mu 2 x 5 Mk16 mod. 1 (DW) 106s

19,033

Fletcher 2 x 5 Mk16 mod. 1 106s 19,033
Yuugumo 2 x 4 Type93 mod. 3 114s 23,766
Jutland 2 x 5 533 mm Mk IX 120s 15,533
Udaloi 3 x 5 53-49M 129s 14,600
Kitakaze 1 x 6 Type93 mod. 3 171s 23,766

(The table uses the top torpedo upgrade, or the torpedo most commonly used in the case of the IJN DDs. The table only considers tech-tree DDs)

 

The thing I've noticed with the Fletcher (and Chung Mu by extension, since Chung Mu is basically a Fletcher-class, and is almost identical to Fletcher in the game save for a couple of stat differences and deepwater variant of the torps) is that they defy WG's standard of torpedo reload. As one goes up the tech tree, it can be seen that there is a correlation between torpedo layout and torpedo reload i.e. the more torpedoes a launcher has, the longer the reload is. This trend is noticeable starting Tier 6, where DDs with three torps per launcher has a shorter cooldown (ex. Fubuki, 3x3 torp layout, 76s base cooldown) compared to DDs with five torps per launcher(ex. Icarus, 2x5 torp layout, 120s cooldown). The observed baseline for torpedo reload is that three torps per launcher has 76s cooldown, four torps per launcher has 90s cooldown, and 5 torps per launcher has 120s cooldown, with variations in cooldown depending on tier. This trend continues to be followed until Tier 10, with some exceptions. Fletcher's and Chung Mu's Mk16 mod1 torps reload too fast at 106s, considering both have five torpedoes per launcher setup.

The reason why I picked these DDs is that their torpedoes are "too good". Fletcher and Chung Mu are DD platforms that has good speed, good rudder shift and turning cicles, and armed with the famous USN DD guns that has fast reload and rotation that are lethal anti-DD weapons. Both DDs also have utilities in the form of DFAA for Fletcher and Radar for Chung Mu, making them incredibly rounded DDs that will sometimes overshadow the Japanese DDs in the "torpedoboat" role, since they output more damage in a single salvo at 190,330 dmg from 10 torpedoes than the 190, 128 dmg from 8 torpedoes than the Yuugumo (Yuugumo could mount TRB and double its output, but TRB will cooldown after Yuugumo launches around two salvoes, giving the faster-reloading Fletcher and Chung Mu an edge in outputting torpedoes). There is actually one more DD that has a discrepancy, and that is Ognevoi with 2x5 torpedo layout that deals 15,100dmg and reloads at 92s, which is even faster than the Fletcher and Chung Mu. But this is balanced due to the fact that unlike all the other Russian DDs that emphasize on guns and speed, Ognevoi has few guns (only 2x2 layout compared to the 3x2 or 4x2 layout of the other Russian DDs) and slower speed (only 37knots compared to the usual base 40knot speed of the Russian DDs). In exchange, Ognevoi has the faster torpedo reload along with better stealth (7.74km base stealth compared to the usual 9km stealth of the other Russian tech-tree DDs).

Considering that the American DDs (along with the Russian and Japanese DDs) are the first DD lines in the game, these values could have been the result of balancing between these three DD lines with regards to torps. But with the introduction of newer DD lines, and the line splits for the Japanese and Russian DD lines, WG has been adhering to its "torpedo reload standard". As a result, Fletcher and Chung Mu torpedo reload sticks out like sore thumb.

So how do we bring these DDs in line with the "torpedo reload standard"? This is my idea:

  • Change Fletcher's and Chung Mu's base torpedo reload from 106s to 116 seconds (or 112 seconds at most). The baseline for five-torps-per-launcher reload is 120 seconds starting Tier 6 with Icarus. Since Fletcher and Chung Mu mounts submarine torpedoes, cutting a few seconds off the baseline reload is considered. Also, the new reload is only plus-minus 2 seconds difference to the Japanese mainline DD Yuugumo's torpedo reload, giving the Japanese the edge in torpedoboating more while still making a torpedo-focused build viable.

What are your thoughts on this?

You should add torpedo speed and range to the table before you  analyze what is "too good". Range and speed both effect weight and length, therefore handling times. Also, larger boats had more crew and better torp handling equipment. A Fletcher is newer than a Farragut by eight years.

Edited by Ericson38

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7 hours ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Fletcher and it's derivative the Chung Mu are damn fine DD's. I vote to leave them as is.

THIS!

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Man, Why don't we give the Chung Mu a second longer reload on it's main guns while we're at it? You know.... for "Reasons".
I have my eye on you undercover WG agent for pushing the idea of another Nerf to the Pan-Asian line. =p

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Instead of nerfing the US DD's torp reload to be in line with the others, why not buff the others up. I have never understood why the Fletcher has more torps and more damage per salvo than the Yuugumo, but and still has a faster torpedo reload time

 

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16 hours ago, Ericson38 said:

You should add torpedo speed and range to the table before you  analyze what is "too good". Range and speed both effect weight and length, therefore handling times. Also, larger boats had more crew and better torp handling equipment. A Fletcher is newer than a Farragut by eight years.

Which will only underline that Fletcher torps are really good. 66kts and 10.5 km? The only torp with clearly better stats are the IJN Type 93 Mod 3.

I like that as soon as Fletcher/Chung Mu come under fire, suddenly historical reasonability is the first priority in people's minds and we're all chattering about handling times and length and god do you all realize these ships didn't carry torpedo reloads! Fletcher and Chung Mu are both exceptionally good ships and maybe they should be toned down a bit. 

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On 12/3/2018 at 10:50 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You got Torp Reload Booster on Yugumo.  All that goes out the window.

Not necessarily. You have to drop Smoke and Yugumo has no AA.

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1 hour ago, Aetreus said:

Which will only underline that Fletcher torps are really good. 66kts and 10.5 km? The only torp with clearly better stats are the IJN Type 93 Mod 3.

I like that as soon as Fletcher/Chung Mu come under fire, suddenly historical reasonability is the first priority in people's minds and we're all chattering about handling times and length and god do you all realize these ships didn't carry torpedo reloads! Fletcher and Chung Mu are both exceptionally good ships and maybe they should be toned down a bit. 

This.

The main point I'm trying to say in this thread is that Fletcher and Chung Mu's torpedoes reload too fast for a quintuple torpedo launcher.

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On 12/4/2018 at 12:22 AM, RyuuohD_NA said:

Torpedo Speed and range, along with torpedo detection which contributes to reaction time isn't considered in this, as the results still reinfores the fact that the Chung Mu and Fletcher torps are "too good". Take for instance the "torpedo specialist" Yuugumo. She has 12km range, but having 1.7km torpedo detection along with 67 knot speed gives a reaction time of roughly 9 seconds, is the worst among the T9 list. Chung Mu with 10.5km range with 66knot speed and 0.8km detection gives a very low reaction time of around 5 seconds, the best of the tier. Fletcher having the same stats as Chung Mu but 1.4km detection gives a reaction time of around 7 seconds, which is on the upper half of the tier.

So instead of touching the reload per tube adjust the detection per torpedo. Because even if Yuugumo had a 60s reload, the 1.7km detection of her torpedoes would still have the same hit ratio, amounting to the same average damage per game.

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3 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

So instead of touching the reload per tube adjust the detection per torpedo. Because even if Yuugumo had a 60s reload, the 1.7km detection of her torpedoes would still have the same hit ratio, amounting to the same average damage per game.

The IJN torpedo detection will not be buffed any further than they have currently. WG's statement is that buffing IJN torpedoes' detection will result in them dealing too much damage to cruisers and destroyers, and will eventually bring the return of the old days of torpedo soup.

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2 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

The IJN torpedo detection will not be buffed any further than they have currently. WG's statement is that buffing IJN torpedoes' detection will result in them dealing too much damage to cruisers and destroyers, and will eventually bring the return of the old days of torpedo soup.

Haha! The same WG that said no caliber over 203mm? The same WG that said Missouri was permanent and that they would never ever touch submarines?

Never say never. 

If torpedo detection is what dictates how often torpedoes hit, lowering or increasing the reload isn't the salution. And Certainly not by 10%. You need to brainstorm an argument to appropriately lower the torpedo detection ranges on IJN torps exclusively to the fact thay IJN torps are preferably 70% the damage they are capable of doing do to gun handling constraints.

WoWs isn't the same game as it was back in 2016. Even DDs have radar and hydro now and there were Italian DDs with float planes!

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19 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

So instead of touching the reload per tube adjust the detection per torpedo. Because even if Yuugumo had a 60s reload, the 1.7km detection of her torpedoes would still have the same hit ratio, amounting to the same average damage per game.

The most realistic possible buffs to IJN DD are to their torpedo ranges or damage. OFC, the issue there is TA, which means any range buff is equivalent to a speed buff. Honestly I would just scrap the skill from the game and replace it with something else. It complicates torpedo balancing too much and doesn't have much interesting choice associated with it- either the ship is TA friendly in which case it is a no-brainer, or it isn't in which case it is useless.

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8 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

The most realistic possible buffs to IJN DD are to their torpedo ranges or damage. OFC, the issue there is TA, which means any range buff is equivalent to a speed buff. Honestly I would just scrap the skill from the game and replace it with something else. It complicates torpedo balancing too much and doesn't have much interesting choice associated with it- either the ship is TA friendly in which case it is a no-brainer, or it isn't in which case it is useless.

Increasing torpedo damage even by 50% doesn't solve the basic notion that the torpedo has to land to hit. Personally im not a fan of speedy torpedoes, but stealthy deadly torpedoes are more plausible and realistic. This isn't a simulation: yes. But this arcade isn't 2016 either.

There should be an offset of reload to detection or vice versa while range bscomes a tier feature. If stealthy torpedoes remain a problem, increased durations on catapult aircraft and increased hydro mountings on none CL ships would balance the issue increasing warning temporarily instead of permanent warning bestowed by 1.7km torpedoes.

Edited by Crokodone
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1 minute ago, Crokodone said:

Increasing torpedo damage even by 50% doesn't solve the basic notion that the torpedo has to land to hit. Personally im not a fan of speedy torpedoes, but stealthy deadly torpedoes are more plausible and realistic. This isn't a simulation: yes. But this arcade isn't 2016 either.

There should be an offset of reload to detection or vice versa while range bscomes a tier feature.

Nonsense, if torpedoes did 50% more damage they would obviously kill in 2/3 the hits, which would make torps much more lethal to ships. Frankly the construction of torp damage not mattering and torpedo detection being the god stat is ridiculous. Torpedo damage matters hugely, and torpedo detection is really most relevant on shots that were fairly marginal anyways(it is the least relevant torpedo factor overall, damage, speed, and range are all more important). If you catch a ship at a bad angle, torp detection will usually not matter to his chances without a supporting screen.

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