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Musashi: What could have been.

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Musashi, you know her, you may even love her. And that’s because she is an amazing ship hands-down. So amazing in fact, that Wargaming in their infinite wisdom unwittingly made the best tier IX ship in the game. Nothing even holds a candle. Missouri and Iowa are great, and even post-buff Izumo is quite fun to play. But they aren’t Musashi.
Missouri only competes with her on the basis of economy alone. And Musashi’s economy is perfectly serviceable, because Wargaming learned from the Missouri fiasco how to make decent economic multipliers for their ships, it’s an appreciated gesture but Musashi has many other issues that make it pretty much a disaster for this game. 
 

First, I am not complaining about the ship’s gameplay. I’m not whining that she needs buffs or anything like that. Quite the opposite in fact, rather she is TOO STRONG.
I’m pretty sure no one here would argue that Musashi, despite Wargaming’s attempts to “Justify” her presence in lower tiers still feels exactly like playing a Yamato in a tier VII match.

In this post I am going to go over various aspects of Musashi’s current state and propose how Wargaming could have done things differently.

PLEASE TAKE NOTE that this is not a “PLEASE NERF MUSASHI NOW” post, and I understand that retroactively nerfing a ship that people can pay money to access is usually a very bad thing and can lead to some sticky situations that are worthy of posts all by themselves. However, I will say this.
The main attitude of this post is supposed to be a constructive criticism aimed at Wargaming, such as to avoid making these mistakes in the future.
Because I’m tired of seeing FXP ships getting removed because of Wargaming’s shortsightedness with regard to the long-term impact these ships have on the game.

That being said, again, I agree that retroactively nerfing Premium Shop ships is, on the surface, a bad thing, but sometimes it is necessary for the health of the game. And in Musashi’s case if you spent money to get her, you knew full well that such an investment might have been a risk. If these changes I am going to propose to Musashi were to miraculously become real. You would not have as much of a case to complain to Wargaming compared to if they uber-nerfed a Premium Shop item.
Musashi was never a Premium Shop item. You technically spent all that money on doubloons for FXP conversion. And that has a hard, long-established value that Wargaming can definitely say “No, you got what you paid for.”

So now, on to what Musashi is, what she represents, and how Wargaming could have done things differently.
Now 460mm guns are great. But this may come as a surprise to you. I don’t care about her shell size. At tier VII, 406mm shells are plenty enough to overmatch tier VII bow armor. And while Musashi can still punish tier VIII bows, tier VIII has to face 460mm shells anyway at tier X. So nothing really is a big deal here with regards to her shell size.

The main issue I have with Musashi’s presence is not her 460mm guns, but rather the fact that she still is a tier X platform that can see as low as tier VII, and the steps that were initially taken to “justify” her lower tier were nowhere near enough.

First, the reduced sigma and AA were a good start, really. Although I think the AA was reduced a bit too much.
Wargaming I don’t think you understand that turning one stat to basically zero is not the same thing as a reasonable global reduction in most stats.
And in most cases the latter is much healthier for a game than smashing one stat into oblivion.
But with the carrier rework still going strong and the fate of CV’s and AA in this game still vague, I am going to move on.
The sigma reduction was a good choice. It is one of Yamato’s most notable features and something that I wholeheartedly agree, only belongs at tier 10.

Second, her HP pool. What were you thinking Wargaming? Not only did you give her high-end competitive tier X HP, at tier IX. You technically gave her more HP than Yamato herself.
Despite the difference being miniscule, the fact that you would do this to a long respected tier X ship in the game is just maddening.
This massive pool of HP not only allows her to remain competitive in tier X matches, but when facing tier VII she has unrivaled staying power.

Next her overall armor. Exactly the same as Yamato and then some. The addition of the 50mm funnel is another example of head-scratching decisions you made when developing this ship. It’s the equivalent to the HP thing again.
The difference is minimal, but the fact that you made yet another aspect of this ship exactly the same as Yamato but just a little bit better is infuriating and a symptom of this power-creep mentality you have shown with the release of new lines and ships recently. It needs to stop. But again, that is another post for another time.

Now there are plenty of other things similar to or exactly like Yamato on this ship. No surprise, they are the same class.
Some of these things I do suggest should have been changed, but I am not exactly mad about them like I am with the previous things.
So, I will now move on to my version of what could have been done to Musashi before release as to avoid this fiasco in the first place.

 

First, reduced HP: But how much? Musashi’s HP should be more than Izumo, but no more than 90% of Yamato’s HP. Both Ashitaka and Mutsu roughly have 90% the HP of their higher tier sisters. Musashi with exactly 90% of Yamato’s HP would be 87,480. That’s a good number to start with, but I think it’s still too much, and Izumo-level is too little. I think a good spot would be just a bit higher than FDG top hull (which is 84,300) at a nice flat 85,000.

Next her armor: There are not too many changes you can make here without this ship becoming something it never was. So no changes to her citadel placement or bow armor or anything like that.
But rather, her deck. Yamato has 3 values of deck armor. Her bow and aft tips have 32mm. Her foredeck and aftdeck have 50mm, and her main deck has 57mm.
Forgive my possibly erroneous nautical terms for these deck sections.
But anyway, I would suggest that Musashi forgo the 50mm sections and have 32mm in these places.
This would give her deckspace roughly the same area of 32mm armor that Izumo currently has.
Also get rid of that ridiculous 50mm funnel. Unless of course such a thing was a well-known historical difference. But I still think it should go for balance’s sake.
If anything, give it to Yamato.

Spoiler

1256471501_MusashiArmorChanges.thumb.png.62245d4833c97d0ce9479c040448550f.png

Range and rate of fire: These are some aspects that could have easily been tweaked early on to balance the ship, yet they were strangely ignored.
Let's say we give Musashi a 33 second reload and Izumo’s stock range of 19.7km. This would have forced players to make a choice.

Take Main Battery Mod 3 and have a standard battleship reload while having a usable but limiting range.
 Or
Take Gun Fire Control System Mod 2 and have a range of almost 23km, but at a 33 second reload.
Either one would be fine, and would keep the ship in her rightful place of competitive at tier X, while not being overpowering at tier VII.

Rudder shift: This baffles me. Musashi has a 18.7 second rudder.
Unless Musashi had a documented better rudder shift than Yamato, I see no reason for this ship to have a significantly better rudder shift than Yamato. Bring it back in line with Yamato at 22 seconds.

Finally her AA: First I would bring the values in line with the same guns on Yamato, then multiply the DPS by 1.5 to make up for the lack of mounts in order to keep her competitive when she faces lower tiers.
For example, ingame Yamato has an aura of 25mm x48 @ 322 DPS. Musashi has those same guns. Giving her the same DPS values that each of those 25mm mounts has on Yamato gives Musashi’s 25mm AA bubble 80 DPS instead of 75.
Multiply that by 1.5 and we get 120 DPS for Musashi’s mid range AA.
Next, Yamato has an extra row of 127mm dual purpose AA than Musashi, both rows at 67 DPS. I would recommend doubling that value for Musashi’s single row. Giving her 134 DPS in her long range aura.
As for her short range 13mm guns @ 7 dps. I don’t really see a need to change that. As it might just be there for historical presence.
What these changes would do is make Musashi’s AA relevant pretty much only in tier VII matches. Musashi in this configuration should not be able to boast any AA power in tier X matches. That is Yamato’s role since her ingame configuration is an AA refit. But Wargaming you went too far with this lack of AA in my opinion.

So now I am going to go down the statlines of Yamato, Musashi current, and Musashi changed. So you can see side-by-side what these changes look like.

Spoiler

HP
Yamato: 97,200
Musashi (current): 97,300
Musashi (balanced): 85,000

Deck Armor
Yamato: 57mm main deck, 50mm fore/aft deck, 32mm fore/aft deck extremities.
Musashi (current): 57mm main deck, 50mm fore/aft deck, 32mm fore/aft deck extremities + 50mm funnel/superstructure.
Musashi (balanced): 57mm main deck, 32mm fore/aft deck, 32mm fore/aft deck extremities.

Main battery

Yamato: reload 30 seconds, range 26.6km, traverse 60 seconds
Musashi (current): reload 30 seconds, range 26.5km traverse 72 seconds
Musashi (balanced): reload 33 seconds, range 19.7km traverse 72 seconds

AA

Yamato: 3.1km@322DPS, 5.0km@67DPS, 5.0km@67DPS.
Musashi (current): 1.2km@7DPS, 3.1km@73DPS, 5.0km@61DPS
Musashi (balanced): 1.2km@7DPS, 3.1km@120DPS, 5.0km@134DPS

Manouverability

Yamato: Top speed 27Kts, turning circle 900m, Rudder shift 22.1 seconds
Musashi (current): Top speed 27Kts, turning circle 900m, Rudder shift 18.7 seconds
Musashi (balanced): Top speed 27Kts, turning circle 900m, Rudder shift 22.1 seconds

Concealment
Unchanged: all have 18km base and 13.5km max

So there you have it.
These changes are what Musashi should have been right from the start. Currently there is very little separating Musashi from Yamato, and by extension a being a tier X ship that can face tier VII.

Should Wargaming suck it up and make these changes to Musashi instead of just removing her from the tech tree?
Maybe?
I certainly think so.

However, such changes might upset people who either worked hard to grind Musashi or spent the money to get her.
To both of you I say, is it right to rely on such a broken ship to make yourself feel good or pad your stats?
I am a proud owner of the loathed Belfast and if WG ever decided to nerf her significantly I would be okay with it for the good of the game.

No matter what the case, it’s a shame that such poor planning on Wargaming’s part has caused yet another popularly requested Free XP ship to be removed from acquisition.

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I guess. I've got Mus and the only feeling I get from her is disappointment. Fire a perfectly aimed broadside at a target less than 10km away, land 1 hit, and it overpens. I don't see the attraction.

Maybe it's the environment I'm playing in, but she seems very poorly equipped to deal with charging bots and spammy clickerboats. 

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I'll say it again, Mush and Kron are not being removed due to OPness or Popularity... they are going away so the new ships can be priced higher, something they would have a hard time justifying if these two were still for sale at the reduced price and why not raise the price on these ships... yeah that would be a  ****storm in the making.

These ships will all come back in containers and never sold again until WG needs the money

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1 minute ago, nina_blain_73 said:

I'll say it again, Mush and Kron are not being removed due to OPness or Popularity... they are going away so the new ships can be priced higher, something they would have a hard time justifying if these two were still for sale at the reduced price and why not raise the price on these ships... yeah that would be a  S**tstorm in the making.

These ships will all come back in containers and never sold again until WG needs the money

Whatever WG's reasoning for removing it is. I think the point still stands that the way they chose the stats for this ship is a little borked. It's literally the best tier IX ship in the game right now and very little more than a Tier X that can face tier VII. 

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2 hours ago, nina_blain_73 said:

I'll say it again, Mush and Kron are not being removed due to OPness or Popularity... they are going away so the new ships can be priced higher, something they would have a hard time justifying if these two were still for sale at the reduced price and why not raise the price on these ships... yeah that would be a  ****storm in the making.

These ships will all come back in containers and never sold again until WG needs the money

This basically, and in addition has to do with artificial scarcity to boost sales before they are removed. I am certain at some point some reason will be found for the ships to return at an increased price.

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To be honest, I'm seeing the same issue arising with the Massassuchets. Yes, you can't get it for free in any way, but some battles I played had like 2-3 Massy and Massy B's per side. I think it is the trouble with making a premium so popular. Since there are virtually no barriers to achieve it if you are willing to spend money, people will flock to it in droves and overpopulate battles.

Then again, if I had to buy one premium ship, I wouldn't hesitate to get the Massy B

Edited by 6thGuardArmy

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21 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

This basically, and in addition has to do with artificial scarcity to boost sales before they are removed. I am certain at some point some reason will be found for the ships to return at an increased price.

Good point.  If only more people truly understood the notion of "artificial scarcity".

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9 minutes ago, 6thGuardArmy said:

Then again, if I had to buy one premium ship, I wouldn't hesitate to get the Massy B

IT’S SOOO FUN. I’m a DD main, but a secondary-specced Mass is my favorite ship to play right now. It’s the BB I always wanted.

Even better that everyone has them, because then I get matched against n00bs :)  My Mass is bigger than your Mass... Brawl at B cap!

I should mention the Musashi in a Musashi post... It’s fun, too, but I dodge lots of Mu shells in the Mass. I’d usually rather have the wiggly T8 than the lethargic T9.5. I’ve beat up on Musashis with a Massachusetts, dodging shells on the way in, and maneuvering to get the Musashi’s broadside...

Edited by n00bot
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20 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Good point.  If only more people truly understood the notion of "artificial scarcity".

It's one of the few things I remember really vividly from Economics, that and the Onion Futures Act due to the weird story behind it :Smile-_tongue:.

Edited by warheart1992

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30 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

and in addition has to do with artificial scarcity to boost sales before they are removed.

"Sales" only in the loosest sense of the word, since it is possible, if you had played the game for long enough and joined early enough, to have obtained Missouri, Musashi, Kronshtadt and Nelson without ever having paid Wargaming a cent of your money. The only place "sales" apply here is in terms of those who don't have enough free XP but will pay to convert, or those who don't have enough elite ship XP left either and are happy to buy, e.g., as many American containers and premium time days as it takes to mine the Draconic flags they need to grind it. 

If I were the sort to throw vast sums of money at this game, I'd splurge on containers for Draconic flags and premium time and grind out Elite Captain XP at the same time as I was grinding free XP.  At the very least I would be killing two birds with one stone and getting something other than a Tier 9 premium for my money.

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You know instead of talking about artificial scarcity, and other reasons why the Musashi is being removed, and people complaining about the post being tl;dr. Maybe we could actually talk about the main point of my posts and that WG also made mistakes attempting to balance Musashi in it's tier.

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1 hour ago, Thanos_Snap_ said:

PLEASE TAKE NOTE that this is not a “PLEASE NERF MUSASHI NOW” post, and I understand that retroactively nerfing a ship that people can pay money to access is usually a very bad thing and can lead to some sticky situations that are worthy of posts all by themselves. However, I will say this.

That being said, again, I agree that retroactively nerfing Premium Shop ships is, on the surface, a bad thing, but sometimes it is necessary for the health of the game. And in Musashi’s case if you spent money to get her, you knew full well that such an investment might have been a risk. If these changes I am going to propose to Musashi were to miraculously become real. You would not have as much of a case to complain to Wargaming compared to if they uber-nerfed a Premium Shop item.

Musashi is fine.

I don't find her to be overpowered.  She's almost entirely in Tier 10 games anyway.  So really all you're getting is 90% of a Tier 10 occupying one of your team's Tier 9 slots.  Not a game breaking advantage there,

I actually find her campy playstyle to be quite boring, however.  So she generally sits in port unused, for months at a time.

As far as your contradictory point above.  I see no evidence that Musashi is breaking the game in any way,   I usually find her to be easily outflanked and disposed of by my Massachusetts, actually.

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2 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

"Sales" only in the loosest sense of the word, since it is possible, if you had played the game for long enough and joined early enough, to have obtained Missouri, Musashi, Kronshtadt and Nelson without ever having paid Wargaming a cent of your money. The only place "sales" apply here is in terms of those who don't have enough free XP but will pay to convert, or those who don't have enough elite ship XP left either and are happy to buy, e.g., as many American containers and premium time days as it takes to mine the Draconic flags they need to grind it. 

If I were the sort to throw vast sums of money at this game, I'd splurge on containers for Draconic flags and premium time and grind out Elite Captain XP at the same time as I was grinding free XP.  At the very least I would be killing two birds with one stone and getting something other than a Tier 9 premium for my money.

Well, of course there are people that grinded the Free XP. They are a minority however I believe. As for grinding Free XP it's silly easy nowadays to get some, but that's a matter for another discussion. I think the forums skew our view of how many people got millions of Free XP laying around. However, artificial scarcity works in tandem with the hype, in that case of the big bad beast called Musashi. In addition by giving limited notice people scramble to convert Free XP, or grind coal etc. I am certain a container during Christmas will also have coal or enough Steel to do some conversions, however costly the may be. Anyway, last I checked, they are the ones having the monopoly in pixel ships in World of Warships, so we can talk all we want about it but we will just be witnesses to the decisions the Marketing and Sales Departments of WG.

5 minutes ago, Thanos_Snap_ said:

You know instead of talking about artificial scarcity, and other reasons why the Musashi is being removed, and people complaining about the post being tl;dr. Maybe we could actually talk about the main point of my posts and that WG also made mistakes attempting to balance Musashi in it's tier.

Of course, my apologies for derailing the thread. However these business decisions affect the ship itself, so they still fit the general point.

You make some interesting points but as you also say the decision itself was a mistake.  Personally Musashi should have replaced Izumo as the tech tree tier IX, making more apparent the progression in design. Your balance changes could fit there. Then Izumo could maybe get the Nelson layout people have long requested and be put up as the premium Tier IX BB. Owners of the tech tree ship would be offered a discount, something like 500-600k Free XP instead of 750k.  Regardless WG decided to go with the plan they have now. Can't do much about it other than watch it unfold.

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13 minutes ago, Thanos_Snap_ said:

Maybe we could actually talk about the main point of my posts and that WG also made mistakes attempting to balance Musashi in it's tier.

To me, the main point of your post was to tie Musashi's removal to its unbalanced nature, and others have been unhesitating in their viewpoint that they disagree with you on the two being connected.

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4 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Personally Musashi should have replaced Izumo as the tech tree tier IX, making more apparent the progression in design. Your balance changes could fit there.

If the Yamato had been a Tier IX ship, or if Tier X ships had multiple hulls, what we call Musashi right now would be Yamato's A hull with the current Yamato being the B hull. 

Also, is there an Izumo design subvariant that had the Nelson layout (with all guns facing forward)? Because if there isn't, then getting what you want in that regard brings accusations of WG cooking paper ships up out of thin air or on the flimsiest of bases (as if they haven't done enough of that already).

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1 hour ago, Gen_Saris said:

I guess. I've got Mus and the only feeling I get from her is disappointment. Fire a perfectly aimed broadside at a target less than 10km away, land 1 hit, and it overpens. I don't see the attraction.

Maybe it's the environment I'm playing in, but she seems very poorly equipped to deal with charging bots and spammy clickerboats. 

hell, played a game the other night and i shouted..."How the Hell do you Over Pen another Musashi?!?!?" :Smile_amazed: 4 of the 9 shots over pen...WTH?! 

 

but still i love here....but....as for the original design ...before the converted her to have more AAs later in the war.  all the empty deck space should be been with more secondary guns...just look at it...you can see all the deck space with nothing there where there could be something.  

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5 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

If the Yamato had been a Tier IX ship, or if Tier X ships had multiple hulls, what we call Musashi right now would be Yamato's A hull with the current Yamato being the B hull. 

Also, is there an Izumo design subvariant that had the Nelson layout (with all guns facing forward)? Because if there isn't, then getting what you want in that regard brings accusations of WG cooking paper ships up out of thin air or on the flimsiest of bases (as if they haven't done enough of that already).

w4Z9r6K.jpg

Project A-140-J2 is Izumo in that graph. So she actually existed, at least as a draft. Yamato is the A-140F6. But since none of these ships were named, WG could have picked any design and layout from this draft they would have wanted, named it Izumo and introduced her to the tech tree.

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15 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Musashi is fine.

I don't find her to be overpowered.  She's almost entirely in Tier 10 games anyway.  So really all you're getting is 90% of a Tier 10 occupying one of your team's Tier 9 slots.  Not a game breaking advantage there,

I actually find her campy playstyle to be quite boring, however.  So she generally sits in port unused, for months at a time.

As far as your contradictory point above.  I see no evidence that Musashi is breaking the game in any way,   I usually find her to be easily outflanked and disposed of by my Massachusetts, actually.

T8+ (non KM) bb meta is a snoozefest. Musashi is a tough nut to crack... until you find that sweet sweet cheek meat... or close the distance and laugh at its turret traverse... or swarm it with planes... or set it on fire... or properly cover your ally dds so they can torp the daylights out of their bow on 20k away in reverse esteemed personage...

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5 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

So she actually existed, at least as a draft.

Duly noted, with thanks.

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the ship is like WV,it's all about the guns. her main selling point are the yamato guns at tier9.

meanwhile i think JB have lots of tools for a BB.

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1 hour ago, Thanos_Snap_ said:

because of Wargaming’s shortsightedness with regard to the long-term impact these ships have on the game.

I'm with you but be forewarned it's like bashing your head against a wall. I've been doing it for 4 years since Alpha only to sigh as they do what they want and tell them for the lost track of time "told you so" when something is OP, doesn't work, breaks the system a certain way, etc that they said "nope, it'll be fine and work like this" because apparently most, if not all, of their dev team is out of touch with the game and has no understanding of how it actually works, especially CV's.

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Honestly Musashi should have been an alternate hull for Yamato, and Yamato in turn should have all of her AA (She only has about half her mounts right now).

 

Pick heavy secondaries or heavy AA. Could've even found a way for the hull change to change the display name of the ship.

 

The T9 as Izumo could also have just been a 41cm-armed Yamato with less HP. The "What the USN thought Yamato was" while the T10 is "What Yamato actually was". But eh, whatever.

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1 minute ago, WanderingGhost said:

I'm with you but be forewarned it's like bashing your head against a wall. I've been doing it for 4 years since Alpha only to sigh as they do what they want and tell them for the lost track of time "told you so" when something is OP, doesn't work, breaks the system a certain way, etc that they said "nope, it'll be fine and work like this" because apparently most, if not all, of their dev team is out of touch with the game and has no understanding of how it actually works, especially CV's.

and i still hear the words "the devs play the game,they know what they are doing." or "they are not out of touch with the game,it's their game".

 

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