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crazyferret23777

WV 406mm guns are they good?

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Only reason other then historic reasons to buy this BB is if it's 406 guns at tier 6 actually preform well. I have the Mutsu with her 410's and find it a fun ship to play. What do people think about her guns that have played her? Are the guns really great or underwhelming considering there it's biggest positive? TIA

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Have you played the Colorado?   Unlike Mutsu WV41 has the exact same shells as her higher tier counterpart, meaning she has all the gun performance of a t7 when it comes to pen and damage.   Sigma is lower, so they'll be slightly less accurate overall, but that aside from that the guns are identical.

If you haven't played the Colorado, just know that WV41's guns will be far superior to Mutsu when it comes to penetration power.

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Her guns are pretty good, but nothing else about the ship is. I do not believe that the trade offs were worth it.

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It noticeably has the best guns of its tier. Much better than Mutsu. Mutsu's guns are not as strong as Nagato's but WV's guns are the exact ones that the Colorado gets in terms of their penetration and damage. If you can get around its weaknesses (very easy to make up for slow speed by having ok game knowledge), it's a monster. 

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5 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

Her guns are pretty good, but nothing else about the ship is. I do not believe that the trade offs were worth it.

Like Mouse said; not great in PvP, but can be a blast in PvE.

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Colorado and Nagato guns have waaaaaay more penetration than Mutsu guns.

If the guns can't hit 400mm of penetration at 15km, then it's really no good at punching BBs.

Especially tier 6/7 BBs that tend to be well armored, with most of them having more than 340mm of belt armor that only gets thicker when they angle

1086836832_WoWsWV41penetration.thumb.jpg.dd34046291f31f04d6054b59ab77b43a.jpg

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I've only taken her out twice, and I have really struggled to hit with her.  Part of that is I rarely play battleships, so my aim is off.  21 knots reminded me quickly of why I hate Standards.

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From what I've seen (and full disclosure I have the Mutsu but won't be getting the WV41 short of some supercontainer pull) yeah, they are good in the same way the Musashi's guns are good.  Exactly the same guns at a lower tier, 0.1 worse sigma.  I imagine whenever she pulls top tier she will just wreck everything, and be bad at bottom tier since she doesn't get the reduced speed loss in a turn the other USN standard battleships get.  From a historical point of view I'd be interested in her if it was her refit, from a gameplay point of view if tier 6 gets pulled for ranked or clan battle she'll probably be the dominant battleship because that means by default you are top tier and can basically lolpen things like the Yamato does.  Of course again, this comes from me reading about her and watching vids plus seeing a few in battle today, so I'd love to hear how her owners react to my specific points.

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1 hour ago, crazyferret23777 said:

Only reason other then historic reasons to buy this BB is if it's 406 guns at tier 6 actually preform well. I have the Mutsu with her 410's and find it a fun ship to play. What do people think about her guns that have played her? Are the guns really great or underwhelming considering there it's biggest positive? TIA

Caveat:  I didn't buy her, but I have been closely following her since her initial DevBlog entry.

 

WV41 has a whole slate of issues, including gun accuracy.  1.8 Sigma compared to Colorado's 1.9 Sigma, and Colorado wasn't exactly known as the most accurate at Tier VII, either.  Meanwhile Warspite who has the same Overmatch advantages in the same tier is more accurate.

Spoiler

3sdg9pO.jpg

However many problems I criticize WV41 for, Power and Penetration are not an issue for her.  In those 2 terms, these are Full Strength Tier VII 406mm guns sitting in Tier VI.  Mutsu doesn't get the powerful Type 91 AP shells of her sister, Nagato in Tier VII.

Spoiler

0ZCjIwr.jpg

 

WV41's guns have massive penetration capability in this tier.

As for Mutsu, I had brought the idea up before in the IJN BB subforum to get Mutsu Type 91 AP shells that Nagato gets when I saw WG's initial WV41 Devblog.  Even back then, it was obvious WV41 was getting Colorado's shells, while Mutsu was getting gimped with the inferior Type 88 AP.  All the "Downtiered Stock Hull BB Premiums" get the upgraded shells of the original ship.  Except Mutsu.

 

I'm also guessing that with such mega penetration capability, you'll likely Overpen the sh*t out of the same or lower tier Cruisers WV41 encounters.  But then again, facing the heavier armored Tier VIII CAs like German & USN CAs, these guns should smash the sh*t out of them, just like Colorado.  But in general with similar tier ships, it's very obvious she's bred to prey on Battleships.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

As for Mutsu, I had brought the idea up before in the IJN BB subforum to get Mutsu Type 91 AP shells that Nagato gets when I saw WG's initial WV41 Devblog.  Even back then, it was obvious WV41 was getting Colorado's shells, while Mutsu was getting gimped with the inferior Type 88 AP.  All the "Downtiered Stock Hull BB Premiums" get the upgraded shells of the original ship.  Except Mutsu.

Sadly another casualty of the meta leaving a ship behind.  That's because when Mutsu was made it was supposed to be the terrible A hulls being downtiered, including WWI era shells, but the power creep in this game has always been real.

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Just now, FirestormMk3 said:

Sadly another casualty of the meta leaving a ship behind.  That's because when Mutsu was made it was supposed to be the terrible A hulls being downtiered, including WWI era shells, but the power creep in this game has always been real.

She can use the help.  Hell, last Tier VI Ranked, Mutsu was very mediocre.  Now WV41 gets Colorado's shells, so WTH...

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14 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

As for Mutsu, I had brought the idea up before in the IJN BB subforum to get Mutsu Type 91 AP shells that Nagato gets when I saw WG's initial WV41 Devblog.  Even back then, it was obvious WV41 was getting Colorado's shells, while Mutsu was getting gimped with the inferior Type 88 AP.  All the "Downtiered Stock Hull BB Premiums" get the upgraded shells of the original ship.  Except Mutsu.

This is because unlike WV, Mutsu has further advantages than just being a downtiered stock hull. She gets torpedoes, speed, maneuverability that Nagato does not get as well as a minor increase in concealment and secondary armament. Mutsu may not have the penetration that WV gets but she's still balanced in her own way and IMO more interesting. 

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3 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

This is because unlike WV, Mutsu has further advantages than just being a downtiered stock hull. She gets torpedoes, speed, maneuverability that Nagato does not get as well as a minor increase in concealment and secondary armament. Mutsu may not have the penetration that WV gets but she's still balanced in her own way and IMO more interesting. 

Fair enough.

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13 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

This is because unlike WV, Mutsu has further advantages than just being a downtiered stock hull. She gets torpedoes, speed, maneuverability that Nagato does not get as well as a minor increase in concealment and secondary armament. Mutsu may not have the penetration that WV gets but she's still balanced in her own way and IMO more interesting. 

 

9 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Fair enough.

Actually not really.  The only thing I'll really give you is the increased concealment and that's not really a significant difference, especially as it's pretty on-par for her tier being close to Fuso but with worse air detectability.  Her torpedoes are not really worth considering since her armor does not make her a good brawler and their firing arc requires fully exposing her goey innards.  Not worth it to fire 1 torp.  Even if the arcs were better, generally if you're that close you're dead.  Same goes to secondaries, which until the change (Mutsu did get the same AP to HE change as other IJN BBs, right?  I haven't checked) her secondaries were completely useless.  Even firing HE their pathetic 4km range means, again, they aren't really worth anything.  You'd be better off with the Warspite's secondary guns there, and her main battery fires lasers.  She also, like all IJN BBs, has the least efficient damage control party in the game which means if you were brawling and main batteries were somehow not a part of the equation, you get the raw deal on the fires that exchange is gonna set.

 

Even before the WV came from a competitive standpoint Warspite was the better choice for needing something that can overmatch bows (same ability with better accuracy) or for brawling (with a way better secondary suite).  Fuso takes the cake if you want standoff range (and if you're gonna risk handing out citadel damage, Fuso at least gives a broadside with real weight), and Arizona is better at being tanky if you ask me (though no one is gonna pick IJN for that).  These days even just from a good secondary build standpoint you have Normandie and Bayern, which are also better choices.  So no, WV gives up stuff to have the BEST guns at her tier, Mutsu gives it up to, what, have a useless torp on each side?

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4 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Like Mouse said; not great in PvP, but can be a blast in PvE.

Far be it from me to dispute LittleWhiteMouse, for whom I have a great deal of respect, but in the first PvE battle in which I saw a WeeVee it struggled terribly. I rushed the bot version in a Makarov and easily burned it nearly down prior to torping at point-blank range while our live WeeVee simply could not keep up with the battle and ended at the bottom of the team score.

Now I realize that one battle is only the first mark on the wall, but I was very disappointed in how it seemed to perform.

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WV has done okay for me so far in co-op.  But, only because of my rather suicidal tendencies to go for 'B' or the center of the map.  I knew the speed was going to be a serious problem so I just tried to make a straight line course for where the DDs were, since bots tend to go after DD's first.  As long as you stay in the middle lane, you have a decent chance of getting in the fight.

 

But, yeah.  The guns aren't the problem.  Citadels come easily.  The engine room, on the other hand, is a serious issue.  There is zero capability to flex.  If you're out of position, you're done.  Either you get no xp because everyone else killed everything.  Or you're the last target before the opponents win.

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I bought her but only got one match in. She reminds of Musashi: all about them boom sticks. Accuracy is acceptable and the alpha potential is devastating. I had a pretty middling game, but did pull off a dev strike on a Kutuzov and turned around a pushing Atago with a citadel hit. I think the trick is keeping some friendlies between you and the baddies so you aren't focused.

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5 hours ago, crazyferret23777 said:

Only reason other then historic reasons to buy this BB is if it's 406 guns at tier 6 actually preform well. I have the Mutsu with her 410's and find it a fun ship to play. What do people think about her guns that have played her? Are the guns really great or underwhelming considering there it's biggest positive? TIA

Same guns as Colorado. If you like that one and do well with it you will like WV41. They aren't quite as accurate on WV41 (1.8 sigma) as they are on Colorado (1.9 sigma) but they aren't bad. They hit just as hard when you do hit. Otherwise same basic ship and play (AA not as good).

People seem to be falling into the same trap with WV41 being a "T6 with those guns" as they did with Pensacola. You will see the exact same ships with WV41 as you do Colorado other than no T9. So there is no gun advantage. You won't see any lower than T5 in WV41 the same as Colorado.

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5 hours ago, crazyferret23777 said:

Only reason other then historic reasons to buy this BB is if it's 406 guns at tier 6 actually preform well. I have the Mutsu with her 410's and find it a fun ship to play. What do people think about her guns that have played her? Are the guns really great or underwhelming considering there it's biggest positive? TIA

The guns are very nice indeed. They perform like Colorado's albeit with slightly worse dispersion. The USN AP is very good.

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28 minutes ago, DJC_499 said:

Far be it from me to dispute LittleWhiteMouse, for whom I have a great deal of respect, but in the first PvE battle in which I saw a WeeVee it struggled terribly. I rushed the bot version in a Makarov and easily burned it nearly down prior to torping at point-blank range while our live WeeVee simply could not keep up with the battle and ended at the bottom of the team score.

Now I realize that one battle is only the first mark on the wall, but I was very disappointed in how it seemed to perform.

Colorado man here.

Best of my first five games I pushed into the middle of the map and one-shotted three cruisers inside 10k.

WeeVee to me is a Colorado that doesn’t have to worry about T9.

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43 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Colorado man here.

Best of my first five games I pushed into the middle of the map and one-shotted three cruisers inside 10k.

WeeVee to me is a Colorado that doesn’t have to worry about T9.

That is it in a nutshell plus it has worse AA.

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7 hours ago, FirestormMk3 said:

 

Actually not really.  The only thing I'll really give you is the increased concealment and that's not really a significant difference, especially as it's pretty on-par for her tier being close to Fuso but with worse air detectability.  Her torpedoes are not really worth considering since her armor does not make her a good brawler and their firing arc requires fully exposing her goey innards.  Not worth it to fire 1 torp.  Even if the arcs were better, generally if you're that close you're dead.  Same goes to secondaries, which until the change (Mutsu did get the same AP to HE change as other IJN BBs, right?  I haven't checked) her secondaries were completely useless.  Even firing HE their pathetic 4km range means, again, they aren't really worth anything.  You'd be better off with the Warspite's secondary guns there, and her main battery fires lasers.  She also, like all IJN BBs, has the least efficient damage control party in the game which means if you were brawling and main batteries were somehow not a part of the equation, you get the raw deal on the fires that exchange is gonna set.

 

Even before the WV came from a competitive standpoint Warspite was the better choice for needing something that can overmatch bows (same ability with better accuracy) or for brawling (with a way better secondary suite).  Fuso takes the cake if you want standoff range (and if you're gonna risk handing out citadel damage, Fuso at least gives a broadside with real weight), and Arizona is better at being tanky if you ask me (though no one is gonna pick IJN for that).  These days even just from a good secondary build standpoint you have Normandie and Bayern, which are also better choices.  So no, WV gives up stuff to have the BEST guns at her tier, Mutsu gives it up to, what, have a useless torp on each side?

Mutsu is still faster than Nagato with more concealment, and that's a big deal when most BBs of this tier are slow. The torpedoes are a factor in this as well. The guns are better than Warspite in some ways. My biggest problem with Warspite guns is that the arcs are so high that you have to rely entirely on overmatching to damage BBs. I think this is true for most T6 BBs, even ones that don't overmatch, like Arizona can load HE to do good damage. West Virginia and Mutsu can do some broadside punishing and they don't overpenetrate cruisers too much either. Mutsu can still rely on overmatch though, just like Warspite. So is that trade off in around 150mm of penetration worth having torpedoes, higher top speed, more maneuverability, better concealment? Yes, it makes it more versatile than West Virginia. Maybe not so much because having the best guns of its tier is such a huge advantage, but still enough to be balanced. 

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I'm thinking of getting her but I don't have ANY issues making the standards to work for me so I think this ship will be a joy for me

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8 hours ago, FirestormMk3 said:

 

Actually not really.  The only thing I'll really give you is the increased concealment and that's not really a significant difference, especially as it's pretty on-par for her tier being close to Fuso but with worse air detectability.  Her torpedoes are not really worth considering since her armor does not make her a good brawler and their firing arc requires fully exposing her goey innards.  Not worth it to fire 1 torp.  Even if the arcs were better, generally if you're that close you're dead.  Same goes to secondaries, which until the change (Mutsu did get the same AP to HE change as other IJN BBs, right?  I haven't checked) her secondaries were completely useless.  Even firing HE their pathetic 4km range means, again, they aren't really worth anything.  You'd be better off with the Warspite's secondary guns there, and her main battery fires lasers.  She also, like all IJN BBs, has the least efficient damage control party in the game which means if you were brawling and main batteries were somehow not a part of the equation, you get the raw deal on the fires that exchange is gonna set.

 

Even before the WV came from a competitive standpoint Warspite was the better choice for needing something that can overmatch bows (same ability with better accuracy) or for brawling (with a way better secondary suite).  Fuso takes the cake if you want standoff range (and if you're gonna risk handing out citadel damage, Fuso at least gives a broadside with real weight), and Arizona is better at being tanky if you ask me (though no one is gonna pick IJN for that).  These days even just from a good secondary build standpoint you have Normandie and Bayern, which are also better choices.  So no, WV gives up stuff to have the BEST guns at her tier, Mutsu gives it up to, what, have a useless torp on each side?

It is actually 2 torps per side with very fast reload but your right their poor range and the angle you have to launch them at make the almost suicidal to use.

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4 hours ago, Krupp_Sabot said:

It is actually 2 torps per side with very fast reload but your right their poor range and the angle you have to launch them at make the almost suicidal to use.

You're right I should have been more clear, I was speaking to their single launch nature.  To be clear to everyone it is in fact two single tube launchers per side.  But again, like you just pointed out above, they could do more damage and still be worthless to consider because you will expose your gooey innards and die if you try to use them since you need to be almost perfectly broadside with their terrible arcs.  They are too short range and too risky to ever even CONSIDER using.

5 hours ago, NeoRussia said:

Mutsu is still faster than Nagato with more concealment, and that's a big deal when most BBs of this tier are slow. The torpedoes are a factor in this as well. The guns are better than Warspite in some ways. My biggest problem with Warspite guns is that the arcs are so high that you have to rely entirely on overmatching to damage BBs. I think this is true for most T6 BBs, even ones that don't overmatch, like Arizona can load HE to do good damage. West Virginia and Mutsu can do some broadside punishing and they don't overpenetrate cruisers too much either. Mutsu can still rely on overmatch though, just like Warspite. So is that trade off in around 150mm of penetration worth having torpedoes, higher top speed, more maneuverability, better concealment? Yes, it makes it more versatile than West Virginia. Maybe not so much because having the best guns of its tier is such a huge advantage, but still enough to be balanced.

I've acknowledged the concealment difference, but again it's minor and again it's to put her ON PAR with other BBs of her tier as detection range increases tier by tier.  So at the end when you put the tradeoff against top speed, torpedoes, maneuverability, and concealment, I dare say off the bat throw the concealment and torpedoes directly in the trash as I see you did with your secondary battery argument (as I pointed out, they are not even near the top of the pack as you initially asserted).  The torps will never be anything more than a rare gimmick that might let you take someone that ran you down with you.  This ship should not brawl and needs to use that maneuverability to stay angled and dictate engagement range, so she renders her own weapons outside of the main battery irrelevant.

 

Since I think we've well covered now why the secondary batteries and torpedoes are not helpful let's look at your concealment argument.  The only BB with worse surface detectability than Mutsu is Fuso, and Fuso still has better air detectability.  Every single other tier 6 BB, including WV41, has better concealment.  Comparing Mutsu getting a concealment buff versus Nagato is a little disingenuous again because of tier difference, but even if we were gonna this concealment buff you keep hammering on about is LESS THAN 200 METERS.  This is irrelevant when talking about something as ponderous as a battleship, even more so by the fact that, like with most BBs with good guns, your bloom just really means your detection range is your firing range.  Furthermore, if we are gonna compare Mutsu to Nagato then it's only fair to compare WV41 to Colorado, which gets a larger concealment buff in the downtiering than Mutsu does.

 

Next let's look at speed.  This is perhaps the single area you can say Mutsu excels in.  It helps her dictate those engagement ranges that make her armament that isn't main battery irrelevant.  Let's not pretend she's some blazing fast battleship like Iowa amongst the standard battleships.  She'll do 26kt to WV41's 21.  It's a fair comparison as 21-23kt is what almost every BB in the tier falls into.  Now, I'm not saying that 3-5kt difference doesn't matter.  In fact I daresay it's more relevant than any concealment difference she may have, since she's actually better than more than 1 other ship in this category.  That 26kt is fine when she's top tier as well, but at the risk of bringing up something beyond the scope of this conversation she's gonna fight faster ships often when uptiered and she won't have the guns or armor to hand in there like WV41.  Even at her tier she is outpaced by Normandie and her 28 and change knots.  This is her best comparison for matchups and it's not like she's dominating like with WV41's guns.  I'll go ahead and mention maneuverability quickly here as well to say that her rudder shift is 100% identical to WV41, so saying her better maneuverability is a factor is disingenuous at best.

 

Finally let's bring up something that we've not so far: AA defense.  Now Mutsu should have weak AA for historical reasons, just like Arizona and WV41.  Mutsu however is just straight up the worst.  Her AA suite is a novelty at best, and with her HUGE air detectability radius when carriers stop being irrelevant after the rework she's gonna be an XP pinata for them.

 

So basically Nagato gets worse shells, no AA, reduced armor, and the removal of her torpedo bulge to get useless torpedoes and a concealment buff of, again, less than 200 meters to get the lower tier treatment.  Colorado loses her late war AA refit as well, but gets to keep the shells unlike her actual A hull, keep her armor and torpedo protection, and gets a BIGGER concealment buff.  Also just dropping the name @HazeGrayUnderway as the discussion is certainly still ongoing.

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