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IAMMUDBONE

PSA...Haragumo teams in Clan Battles

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Hi all, I don't usually post a lot but just wanted to share a situation that we saw twice last night in clan battles.  Disclaimer first, as I may post a replay to give you a view of how nasty a full 7 Haragumo clan battle team really is, is that the clan involved is doing NOTHING ILLEGAL.  I am certainly not upset with them at all, and that is not what this is about. They are using ships that are off the stock tech tree.  We also ran into another clan that did a modified version with 3 khabs, 2 haragumos and then two other capital ships(it was equally destructive).  I guess we all should have known once the Haragumo entered the game, with a dd that had over 25,000 hps and fired shells every 3 seconds(or faster once they get injured) with a 1000 m/s speed that competitive play was going to change, but the reality is here.  The minotaur was the closest comparison that I know of previously, with similar reload time, but it was able to be citadeled and had woefully slow shell speed of 768 m/s to balance it. The Haragumo has no such limitations. The average clan isn't going to be able to field 7 haragumos, and our unfortunate meeting with these guys is mainly due to it being night 2 of the season, I am sure they will advance and we will never see them again.  I have often wondered if it would be better to let clans that are in typhoon/hurricane from the previous season start out in the 2nd league bracket instead of squall, as it is absolute misery to run into clans of this caliber.  They are just on a different level really.  

Anyway, you could get the gist of the fight from watching the first 5 or 10 minutes of the replay. One of our Des Moines tries to do his usual slow down and start/stop tactics right at the start and they kill him in about 25 seconds, so staying mobile is key.  We should have really just stayed all together and focused better, but we are not a pro team by any measure and we were doing the best that we could.  We did kill a good bit of their team but the replay shows that the game was never really in question, it was just a walk of DPM  as they focused us one by one.  I make a critical error at the end and crash myself into an island, and could maybe have done at least a bit more damage, but by that point the game was basically over.  My main concern is that lower level clans seem to always get matched against higher ones, during the "challenge" battles to go up to the next league if nothing else.  Be ready for this, talk about it ahead of time.  Stay together and focus fire on one target at a time.  Use your stealth dds to keep them spotted as the one thing the Haragumo doesn't do well is stealth.  They have to keep at least one Haragumo out of smoke to spot, or add a stealthy dd to their team to do it for them.  The Haragumo is still fairly short in height and thus hard to hit, it is long but close to the water.  Their range is 16 K or so with all mods I believe, but their shells are faster than the cruisers trying to hit them, it may be better to actually close with them to be able to hit them better. My clan will be coming up with our own tactics to deal with this issue, just putting this out there for other average clans to hopefully warn you ahead of time and let you make some plans for this type of enemy team setup.  Don't laugh when you see it is an all dd team(or mostly dds), this is serious. It is not going away and I am sure many clans will be adding Haragumo's into their mix to try and compete also.  I personally think Wargaming needs to decide what Clan Battles should be, not sure how to get there, maybe limit/define the numbers of each ship type?  Haragumo nerf has been mentioned many times but nothing happened before clan battles season so here we are and have to deal with it.  The poor Yue Yang got nerfed hard and it's power level is nothing compared to the Haragumos (in my opinion).  Good Luck to you all in Clan Battles and Godspeed. 

20181129_225759_PJSC034-Zao-1944_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

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By the way I watched this, it is because they moved as a unit and focused fire mostly on one ships at time, that they took you down file they did.  You need to do the same.

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This is intended. WG thought ahead and nerfed the Yeuyang. Enjoy your Haragumo / Stalingrad filled matches. It's only going to get worst when the new premium tier 10 battleship (that is designed as a cruiser killer) comes readily available.

Honestly though, I stopped caring about clan battles a long time ago, Tier 10 has it's own "Unique" gameplay which isn't really fun. too many gimmicks at tier 10.

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The 1000m/s speed is muzzle velocity, at ranges longer than 7-8km the shells start arcing quite a bit. It's better to open up range than get up close.

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    Keep in mind Haragumo eats full pen still. I managed to smite one in smoke with Yammy last night due to that.

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16 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

The 1000m/s speed is muzzle velocity, at ranges longer than 7-8km the shells start arcing quite a bit. It's better to open up range than get up close.

I’m a little low on caffeine at the moment but wanted to inquire:

If they are chain smoking how is staying 10-13km gonna help? Out of radar range, out of effective torp arc range and dispersion and shell travel time make it easier for them to dodge shots. How are you gonna focus fire when half your team is running away with heads on fire? Only counter I see are wolf packs of zombie built minotaurs with radar and hydro interspersed among them. Of course the mino are easily countered by anything with 8” shells and a pulse so...

Why *isn’t* there a limitation on ship types? Seems like it should be about working together as a team with various ship types as a skill demonstration. At least 3 cruisers, 0-1 bb and remainder can be dd.

This haragumo loophole, while ingenious, is really just meant to be an exploit. It is a competitive advantage but it also seems to violate some of the spirit of the competition. 

Edited by thebigblue
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)))))))

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21 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

I’m a little low on caffeine at the moment but wanted to inquire:

If they are chain smoking how is staying 10-13km gonna help? Out of radar range, out of effective torp arc range and dispersion and shell travel time make it easier for them to dodge shots. How are you gonna focus fire when half your team is running away with heads on fire?

I'm not active in CB, but can answer these questions to a certain extent since I play quite a lot of high tier DDs lately. Harugumo first of all follows the old BB AP pen rules so any slightly angled will take full damage by BB AP. In addition they are quite large targets, so even at 13-14km you can nail them. Moskva and Stalingrad in addition have 11.7km radar range, so with the help of cover they can spot them from relative safety. Yueyang can do the same, but can't use her torps. Gearings however can use torps from up to 16km.

To me this looks like a meme lineup that will have some success versus Clans that have a limited number of Tier Xs that can field, but versus the big boys that can field a larger variety these tactics won't amount for much.

Last season the exact same thing happened with full Khaba lineups or full Shimakaze ones.

As for the rules and the spirit of competition, since WG doesn't have specific rules on DD or cruisers everything is fair game according to them. I agree it's silly, but what can you do.

Edited by warheart1992

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Just now, warheart1992 said:

 

To me this looks like a meme lineup that will have some success versus Clans that have a limited number of Tier Xs that can field, but versus the big boys that can field a larger variety these tactics won't amount for much.

Last season the exact same thing happened with full Khaba lineups or full Shimakaze ones.

 

This.  They've already had 6+ Stalingrad meme lineups.  By the time it gets serious, this will pass.

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26 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Why *isn’t* there a limitation on ship types? Seems like it should be about working together as a team with various ship types as a skill demonstration. At least 3 cruisers, 0-1 bb and remainder can be dd.

There is. Only 1 BB per side. You can have as many other types as you want. We encountered a team with 5 DM's and 2 DD's. Of course, the Moskva and Stalingrad are CA's in name only. The Haragumo is actually a pocket CL.

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That is crazy...kudos for the clan to come up with that idea. Boo to Wargaming for introducing insanely OP ships without thinking how they will impact competitive events like Clan battles. 

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Harugumo sucks in CB.

How about learning to play as a team instead of blaming others for your ineptitude?

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I've never played a clan match because our clan only has a division anymore....   I'm commenting from the perspective of seeing these types of exploits in other games.  I didn't realize CB's were not "by type controlled"....

This is a combat game exploit that has been used in many "team matches", that have > four players for years now....  Mechwarrior Online is notorious in Faction Play (their variation on clan battles) for having teams of all of the same class of mechs....  Dragon mech rushes or Hunchback mech rushes, etc....  They overwhelm the other team that is a "distribution of weight classes" and get inside of their formations and destroy the enemy by negating their range or volume of fire advantages....   This exploit destroyed that game format in MWO.....  Everyone is gone and that game is dying....  There is no defense to this exploit save a "forced by type distribution system..."

Clan battles must be 'by class controlled...   Otherwise, once this OP idea gets rolling, if history repeats itself, this exploit will get out of hand because "winning is everything and if the rules doesn't preclude exploits like this, the entire Clan mode will be nothing but exploits...."  This is just another reason meritocracies fail in video games:  because the game companies fail to think in terms of exploits.........only, in what sells.....   In the end, those games implode.  Imagine 7 Shimakaze's with 12 K torpedoes.... Or, ...............some other OP ships when combined just is problematic to get at or overcome....

Edited by Asym_KS

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Harugumo's weaknesses are its large size, poor maneuverability, and slow floaty shells.  Any team that fields a couple Russian radar ships, or American radar ships making effective use of cover, should be able to detect them regardless of smoke, and battleship/cruiser players in the top half of the competitive pool should have no difficulty reliably inflecting massive damage on Harugumos at long ranges.

A full Harugumo team would be an initial shock, but a well balanced team with good enough players to quickly react to the unusual situation should be able to take them down.

Clan battles are "class controlled" in the ways that matter.  No carriers and only one battleship.  Clans bring 1-2 DDs because any more than that simply isn't viable, unless you've got a considerable skill level advantage over your opponents.

 

Edited by Brhinosaurus
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We faced that team last night.. And lost. But we felt we lost because we didn't what they were going to do... After the game we realized it was a shock but not game breaking. We destroyed a lot of them once we figured out how to counter and felt we could win if we faced them again.... At this point I'm not sure it is game breaking. 

*the immense amount of fire coming at me was terrifyingly beautiful ....

Edited by skillztowin

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We used the Gumo Last night as our 2nd DD and it was very effective.

It did have its weaknesses as one would expect but I can already tell it will become a force to reckon with.

As soon as that radar goes....  the Gumo is free to rain down onto anything that cannot drop off.

Mix that in with a Wooster or two focusing fire and the sky Burns Red with IFHE.

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I agree Skillztowin, it was total shock value.  They used that to get a super early kill on the DM and things degraded from there.  Just making sure everyone knows this is officially a new setup you may see in CB.  As the enemy clan member confirmed at the end of the replay "new tactic confirmed".  If you know it is coming though,  you can handle it much better.  

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The beautiful SHOCK&AWE tactic of war. Shock & Awe only works when it is unexpected, and is more geared for "quick and decisive victory" instead of a sustained war. This Tactic was utilized greatly by the Japanese in the Early Stages of WWII, but sadly for them, their "quick and decisive victory" never came, and the shock value wore off. Once the shock value wears off, Shock&Awe tactics become useless.

That's all this "7 div Haru" is. Shock&Awe. It's not OP, just unexpected, and no one knew how to deal with it.  Once people learn that this tactic isn't as viable as it first appears to be, "7 Div Haru" will quickly disappear.

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Life is harder when there's only one ship per team that can red pen Harus. Looks like we're on track for separate Stalingrad and non-Stalingrad metas in different leagues this season as predicted.

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I was the unfortunate Montana Mudbone's team.  "Shock and awe" is right."  I took 638 shell hits for 104k damage.  Works out to about 163 HP per hit, not counting fires.

Clearly an all-Harugumo team is not a serious option for the long haul.  I'm sure it was fun for them.  However, it is a good way to take opponents off guard.  Plus you get to see what multiple Hags can do.

We also ran into a team with 3 Khabs, 2 Hags, a Salem and a Yammy.  They successfully used the Khabs as high speed flankers, then rained down fire with Hags from smoke.  Being shot at by 3 Khabs and 2 Hags all at the same time was NOT an enjoyable experience.  Especially since I joined up late due to a RL obligation and that was my first battle of the night.

I like the fact that teams are experimenting with somewhat extreme, unusual ship choices.  Since last night, I've been thinking about a Shima/Hag combo to push a cap.  Lots of terrifying torps and the Shima can spot for the Hag to burn everything in range.  Radar YY plus Hag is a scary concept too.

Perhaps the most important lesson out of this is that we as a team need to be better prepared for unusual ship choices by opponents.  Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the Hag is a good start.

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A good Harugumo counter is a well played scouting DD like Gearing or Shimakaze.

Save your torps for when they smoke up even if you dont hit them they likely had to leave the smoke costing them one of their precious smokes.  Smoke allies to preserve their HP, and carefully scout looking for anyone approaching smoke to torp it.  Another method is laying a smoke curtain with Gearing and between your distance in front of the smoke, and the distance to allies using it behind the smoke makes your allies torp safe.

Harugumo is strong, but has glaring weaknesses to attack.

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If they're not going to outright ban certain ships from competitive play they should at least implement a cap of 3 types of a given class of ship. That way there's at least 1 ship of each type, and no 7 Harugumo squads. 

Edited by goldeagle1123
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