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WestPac_CG22

How About a DE Class Ship?

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With the possibility of submarines being added to regular game play at sometime in the future, would it be in the player's interest for WG to add a DE (Destroyer Escort) class of ship optimized specifically for ASW? Many of these ships were constructed between 1942 and 1944 and were used for ASW as well as AA and Radar pickets. They could be added for Tier7 and above using the Buckley and Cannon classes for the USN, The River class Frigates for RN and Commonwealth, the Flottenbegleiter or F-class for the Kriegsmarine and the Kaibokan class for the IJN.

I've even thought about a Premium DE ship that I think would be excellent candidate. The USS England DE-635 was a WWII destroyer escort that is steeped in naval history. It was named for Ensign John C. England who was killed while rescuing fellow crewman from the USS Oklahoma during the attack at Pearl Harbor. The ship also has the distinction of being the only USN ship that sunk six Japanese subs during a 12 day period, which won her a Presidential Unit Citation.

Anyway, those are my rough thoughts about ASW ships countering subs. I'd like to know what the rest of you think?

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I'd like to see what they have in store for balancing the current types with subs first before we start throwing around ideas for even more types

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How do you balance a class which has valuable traits that are not at all reflected in game? the reason for constructed Destroyer Escorts were they were cheap, and had long range for convoy escort. In exchange they had inferior armor, armament, and speed of Fleet destroyers.

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How would you balance something that is outrun, out gunned, out armored and out tonnaged by a tier 1 ship?

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Most are too slow and only the USS Samuel B Roberts would work as a low tier premium.

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5 minutes ago, Lert said:

How would you balance something that is outrun, out gunned, out armored and out tonnaged by a tier 1 ship?

They could bully a certain Dutch torpedo boat? :fish_viking:

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2 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

They could bully a certain Dutch torpedo boat? :fish_viking:

Z5 would just torpedo them back.

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DEs would only work in Operations scenarios involving convoy escort fending off attacks by submarines, light attack craft and maybe a few planes.

Could maybe end up  facing off against a cruiser in a sort of “boss” battle at the end of the scenario.:Smile_playing:

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Is their a DE that would be powerful enough to work above tier 3 or 4?

 

DEs suffer from the same issues that subs do. WG just demonstrated that subs need scifi buffs to be playable in this game because the type of combat they were both designed for does not exist in this game. Subs raided ships and DEs escorted cargo ships. There is no raiding or protecting convoys in this game, its a fast paced pitched surface combat game. Both classes only engaged surface pitched battles as a last resort.
 

Also another note: DEs had a low speed which was acceptable because they escorted slow ships and the ships they were fighting against (Subs) were also slow. The subs that WG just demoed were buffed to extremely high speeds even underwater. So DEs would be much less useful because they would be outrun by the ships they would be escorting and subs would be able to do circles around them even underwater.

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DDEs are smaller, weaker, slower than the Fleet Destroyers we have in WoWS.

 

John C. Butler-class DDE, the last USN DDE developed during WWII:

24kt max speed

127mm/38 x2 main battery.  That's TWO guns.

Some 40mm, 20mm AA guns.

Lots of ASW weapons.

Notice there's no torpedoes.  This class had none, but you'll find some other DDE classes with single launchers with 3 tubes or something like that.

 

Compare that to Tier II Sampson in WoWS.

 

The DDs we use in WoWS are "Fleet" Destroyers because they were intended to be used in "Fleet" actions with other surface ships.  They were bigger, better armed, FASTER.

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2 hours ago, WestPac_CG22 said:

would it be in the player's interest for WG to add a DE (Destroyer Escort) class of ship optimized specifically for ASW?

This question is asked every few months, but now that subs are coming it has a special significance. 

The answer before, and still applicable:  No.  DEs are slow, toothless, and vulnerable in a dense environment.  Ultimately, they're too boring to play. 

 

Here's a thought:  What if they were made invulnerable to gunfire?

 

Edited by iDuckman

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Just now, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Is their a DE that would be powerful enough to work above tier 3 or 4?

Maybe one of the better Hunt class Escort Destroyers (if you consider them separate to Destroyer Escorts). The Type 4 with 3x 2 4in guns and 1x 3 TT while doing 27kt on 1,600t full load might make T5.

 

Overall though I'm not a fan of their inclusion, a ship utterly worthless at everything but submarine-hunting is pretty much utterly worthless.

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21 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Is their a DE that would be powerful enough to work above tier 3 or 4?

 

DEs suffer from the same issues that subs do. WG just demonstrated that subs need scifi buffs to be playable in this game because the type of combat they were both designed for does not exist in this game. Subs raided ships and DEs escorted cargo ships. There is no raiding or protecting convoys in this game, its a fast paced pitched surface combat game. Both classes only engaged surface pitched battles as a last resort.
 

Also another note: DEs had a low speed which was acceptable because they escorted slow ships and the ships they were fighting against (Subs) were also slow. The subs that WG just demoed were buffed to extremely high speeds even underwater. So DEs would be much less useful because they would be outrun by the ships they would be escorting and subs would be able to do circles around them even underwater.

Exactly.

No subs, no specialized sub-hunters.

 

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Hell....! if they would add a  DE in the midst of the already crazy line up of ships....

id prefer to be in PT boat :Smile_izmena: at least it would stand up to a fight better than any DE would....buwhahaha 

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29 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Most are too slow and only the USS Samuel B Roberts would work as a low tier premium.

A ship commissioned in 1944 as a low tier ship? Yes, it's gallant effort in the Battle Off Samar made it famous.

While heroic crews made a fight at the Battle Off Samar, DE's were designed to be convoy escort ships with weapons for anti-submarine & some AA. The SamueL B Roberts was a John C Butler class DE, the last of the WW2 DE's. 3 torpedoes and 2 5" guns makes it a very weak ship, even in WW2. But they did what they were designed to do, protect conveys from subs.

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Just now, kgh52 said:

A ship commissioned in 1944 as a low tier ship? Yes, it's gallant effort in the Battle Off Samar made it famous.

While heroic crews made a fight at the Battle Off Samar, DE's were designed to be convoy escort ships with weapons for anti-submarine & some AA. The SamueL B Roberts was a John C Butler class DE, the last of the WW2 DE's. 3 torpedoes and 2 5" guns makes it a very weak ship, even in WW2. But they did what they were designed to do, protect conveys from subs.

Remember, 2 x 5", 3 x torpedoes, 28 knots, even in tier two it would struggle.

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Just put depth charges on existing destroyers and cruisers, and hope they don't suicide at the start of the match. Job done.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

How would you balance something that is outrun, out gunned, out armored and out tonnaged by a tier 1 ship?

Ding ding ding! Several of the ships we have at tier 1 actually were anti-submarine escorts. 

Subs will be in ops and maybe get their own special battle mode. They will NOT be in randoms. 

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Also, the Commonwealth used the Flower Class Corvette for a dedicated convoy ASW platform.  Good ship for hunting Subs....not so great for fighting anything else.  DE's while better armed then the Flowers, still weren't by and large expected to really do combat with another surface fleets units.  They were armed enough to "fight back" against a DD possibly, another DE or patrol craft definately, and optimized far more for deterring and hunting down Subs.  While they were able to engage larger vessels, it was not to be expected that the DE would be coming back from that sort of thing...aka....Taffy 3.  Brave and Honorable to the last, respected for their courage and tenaciousness by the Japanese they fought (the IJN Captain who saluted the sinking USS Johnston which was a Fletcher class Fleet DD granted but I'm fairly sure they had respect for all of the sailors of that task force for those traits).  While USS Samuel B. Roberts tallied up quite the butcher's bill against Chokai and Chikuma, it wasn't a fight she was going to win in the long run with Kongo herself putting 3 14" rounds into Roberts and ripping a 40ft hole into her side.

Also, interesting side note...Samuel B. Roberts was a John C. Butler class DE...and while the Butler class is listed as not having torpedoes....Samuel B. Roberts had 1x3 533mm Torpedo launcher, which she reportedly fired all 3 of at Chokai and hit her with 1.  Not sure if it was an addition that the crew made to her or if she was modified in port by the Navy.

overall though, DE's would not be fun against anything except maybe subs and other DE's.

Edited by EroSun

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24 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Remember, 2 x 5", 3 x torpedoes, 28 knots, even in tier two it would struggle.

With the unnerfed 20 RPM guns and MK 15 torpedoes, I think it would do well enough at T4, possibly even T5. It doesn't have to be "good", just fun, and the historical collectors will be all over it even if it sucks like Diana.

 

Matt

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7 minutes ago, mobryan said:

With the unnerfed 20 RPM guns and MK 15 torpedoes, I think it would do well enough at T4, possibly even T5. It doesn't have to be "good", just fun, and the historical collectors will be all over it even if it sucks like Diana.

 

Matt

Too slow  for tier 4 even with the over boosted engines, the cruisers would all be faster.

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Not saying that there wouldn't need to be some serious leeway given to their stats, but these small ships shouldn't be underestimated that much.

With the appropriate consumables and/or tools, they could be worth looking into... although it would be a longshot for anything other than scenarios. I advocated for submarines as they practically come pre-balanced with regards to potential survivability vs capability to deal damage, but these things... would be a bit harder to keep alive and the amount of damage they could do would be limited without some serious effort to make them viable.

Planes and the like would be on the list of things that they'd be setup to take on for sure. Spotting, probably with a bit better concealment than DD's, would be another option but would be easily overtaken by a DD if there is no support nearby to help ward it off or kill it. Subs would definitely be on the list too for things it would go after; potentially freeing up a true DD from that task... but that's iffy thinking there with regards to how the introduction of submarines would influence the overall gameplay to begin with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMS_Amiral_Murgescu 

Amiral's got a rather interesting list of accomplishments and a kill on a DD with mines. Not something that I imaging WG would bother to add, but mines are a possibility as a tool to block off certain areas of the map that WG loves to load up with islands. DD's (or other type ships) would have to slow down to pass through them or risk taking a hit. Unlike torps that can outright miss and/or be avoided, mines would be a near permanent threat for anyone attempting to just rush the enemy or something.

Now, there are some of them that had torpedoes. These would be nothing more than smaller versions of DD's with far less survivability (so... not exactly the best argument there). But at least they wouldn't be too difficult to work with and would be the best candidate for such a class; if WG was interesting in looking into the class. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley-class_destroyer_escort

Overall, the individual DE's vary wildly with regards to their use against other ships. Submarines and Aircraft are the only assured things that they are all (mostly) capable of taking out and even then, DD's still do that better and with the capacity of taking on every other ship in the game. DE's seem a bit too specific in what they are designed to engage in the game and I don't see them being viable simply because they are all but useless against every other class but (a potential) one.

 

 

 

Edited by Levits

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41 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Too slow  for tier 4 even with the over boosted engines, the cruisers would all be faster.

It's not like WG hasn't bent their "rules" about ship speeds into a pretzel already...

:Dipping a baguette into some borscht and munching loudly:

 

Matt

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Wow! i certainly opened a can of worms with this post. As I said it was a "rough" thought that I wanted to toss out to the general community and see what stuck. Many of you are correct concerning the specs and a abilities of most of the DE class, however, we don't know at this point in what capacity WG will be adding historical subs to the general game. As some have suggested, a DE class might work  in an operation involving subs.

I'll admit that I'm not advocating a need for a DE class anytime soon when subs are introduced into the general game. I wanted to see what most of you thought about it. I agree more with @Chobittsu to wait and see how WG will counter subs with existing ships. I'm just glancing ahead to see what possible courses having subs in the game could open up. I've read a number of different posts over the last month or two on where this game may be headed. Many have expressed frustration with upper tier game play and how monotonous it has become and with the developers now talking about maybe adding T-11 and T-12 , my ruminations were on the possibilites of WG adding different ship classes as a way of keeping players interested. Since subs are apparently coming within a future update, having a ship that was specifically dedicated to hunting and destroying them was just the natural line of progression to bring up.

As some have indicated the sci-fi subs that we had for Halloween, were just that, fictional, and were no where close to how actual subs operate. So we'll have to see what WG does with them in a future Public Test and then go from there. As for a Premium DE, again that was just a dream.  I'll admit I have a dog in the fight for that one, as I served on the CG class of the USS England (Leahy Class) in the late 70s. Having an opportunity to play a ship that was the forebearer of the one I served on would be awesome!

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

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