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MattttChris

CV Rework feedback - Looking Good, but a ways to go

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I am very invested in the CV rework. I wouldn’t call myself a CV main, but I have played a good amount of CV matches on live. For a time I was in the top 200 in some CVs on live in NA for a time. I know a thing or two about CVs. I love CVs and naval aviation.

I waited until the balancing phase began to write this up.

Here are my observations of the rework after Test 3 with a 19 PT captain with Air Armor, Improved Boost, Torp Accel, Improved Engines, AR, Survivability Expert, Fast Aiming and Concealment Expert

THE GOOD:

  1. AA is great right now, honestly its really good. Right where it should be or close to it. A slight increase in DPM for close range AA would be good. But really this is nice, it strikes a great balance between engaging and passive.

  2. T8 CVs are wonderful. They are the perfect mix of speed, health, hangar, maneuverability and strike power. Go off that for the T10 CVs. They are fun to play but they don’t rule matches with their power.

  3. The afterburner feels good. It last long enough with captain skills to be reliable and get you in the fight fast. Its right where it should be

THE BAD:

  1. Torpedo bombers need a tweak. Right now I can hit 3-5 torps and maybe get 1 flood. Combine that with smart players can dodge torps quite easy. When I do land torps they do minimal damage.

a. Proposal: Either keep the lower damage numbers and make torp hits more reliable by speeding torps up and slightly reducing aiming time, or buff torp hit damage. The former is a better idea because it will reduce skill gap, and keep CVs from being game rulers.

2. Cross dropping is a problem for DDs, CVs shouldn't be able to blap DDs so easily. However, with the current version a skilled DD can very easily rush down a CV and it’s hard to do anything to it. This is because you have to line up a shot for "so long" against a DD, the DD can easily dodge or maneuver away. This in combination with minuscule DD air detection means you’ll detect a DD at 3ish KM and have only a few seconds to line up a decent shot on it.

a. Proposal: Either make torp hits somewhat more reliable through a torp speed increase/aim time reduction or reduce the time to aim or rockets more.

3. Dive bombers are awkward. They aren't the most responsive, but that isn't a bad thing. IMO make the dispersion ellipse a circle, its time consuming and you lose a lot of planes whether to AA or fighters to line up a shot along the ship. Most players know you’re doing this and angle away, making your drop useless and that time you spent lining up the shot worthless.

a. Proposal: Either make them easier to aim and a slight increase in handling to line up the shot or keep the current movements and make the dispersion ellipse a circle.

4. T10 Carriers are too comfortable. I don’t fear anyone when I’m flying. You need to have some sort of plan of attack, and with how fast and healthy T10 planes are you don’t need that. I don’t want CV overlords again.

a. Proposal: Reduce T10 plane speed and health slightly. They have the hangar to handle it.

5. Please give some love to the CV models and their animations. Make the landing gear on planes animate to go up. Reward us naval aviation nuts with some nice eye candy

6. Fast aiming doesn’t seem to impact much. Fast aiming is a 4 point skill and I really can’t feel its impact much, I think it needs a slight increase in its usefulness. It would fix a lot of the problems currently with the strike planes.

7. The current implementation of CVs is rather shallow. If anything it is more of a tech demo. It needs to be developed and deepened more than anything. Naval aviation nuts like me like it because I get to fly the planes I like so much, but for other people that won't work

THE BUG:

  1. I keep getting a critical error and my game freezes a lot when I play. I have to do a while system reset to fix it.

  2. Once or twice my dive bombers have refused to drop. You press the button and nothing happens.

  3. At times I get massive frame drops when playing the CVs. I got from 60+ FPS down to sub 30. Only restarting the game helps with this.

THE UGLY:

  1. T4 carriers are awful. Absolutely awful. You get so many hits and do almost no damage. I know you need to avoid seal clubbing but this current damage is way too low. I would get something like 30 bomb hits and 40 rocket hits and only get around 50k damage. I know most of it has to do with the armor of targets, so you can work with that. Because the T4 planes are so clunky, its hard to properly strike anything but a BB and they are the ones with the armor that shatters everything.

a. Proposal: Slightly buff the damage T4 CVs can do. Its such a drag to play

2. Fighters are so annoying. Please rework fighters. The ones around the carrier are fine and quite good, but the button press for fighters to a region is so boring and annoying. A simple button press isn’t engaging and its annoying to be on the other end because you suddenly lose half to your full squadron. There is little to no counter play.

a. Proposal: Make it a consumable where you control the fighters for a time if you choose and you can engage the enemy strike aircraft. This would be more dynamic and fun. If you don’t choose to control the fighters, allow strike aircraft to dodge and shake them off. This rewards skill and having to dodge fighters off increases how long they could be in ship AA and at least increases the time to strike, reducing DPM.

3. Let not continue the trend of US CVs being seen from the moon. The lack of mobility and control means doom for the big girls.

4. LET US CONTROL THE CV WITHOUT SENDING OUR SQUADRON BACK lol. For God’s sake idk if the engine or what can’t handle it, but this needs to be one of the first things to change. The auto pilot system is trash so relying on it to move your ship continuously is moronic.

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Solid observations and proposals. Thanks!

It's refreshing to see threads like this offering feedback on the rework rather than asking to flat out cancel it.

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14 minutes ago, MattttChris said:

I4. LET US CONTROL THE CV WITHOUT SENDING OUR SQUADRON BACK lol. For God’s sake idk if the engine or what can’t handle it, but this needs to be one of the first things to change. The auto pilot system is trash so relying on it to move your ship continuously is moronic.

Wargaming has already said that they "heard player feedback" on the ship control issue, but that they had decided against simultaneous control because it would be "distracting". 

Given how ridiculously easy it is to manage multiple squadrons AND the ship in the current RTS-lite interface... the only way to take that is that Wargaming thinks most players are too stupid, too inept, too hapless to chew gum and walk at the same time.  

Of course the entire premise that the rework is needed because the RTS-lite interface is "too complex" or "too much multitasking" or "too much micromanagement" is insulting to begin with. 

 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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Appreciate your thoughts on this and the feedback you provided.

I dont play CVs so cant really comment, but have watched lots of CC streams and vids about the rework and i have to say there are some things that dont resonate well with me.

  • Its nice that some of the Alpha strike is gone..but as you mentioned seems like they've taken that a bit too far and if they are going to remove the alpha than the DOT needs to make it worth it...which it doesn't appear to be.
  • Cant say as I'm a fan of the way a CV can kinda keep a single ship under focus for so long. As a surface ship player i really dont want to spend all my time trying to deal with that kinda focus from a CV that i cant really attack back at. I really dont find that fun or interesting, and if you're in a CA that's constantly having to dodge that will leave your very vulnerable to getting cit'd by a BB while dodging yet another strike.
  • The AAA defense seems a little lacking as never ending supply of planes makes the occasional loss of planes not a real detriment to the CV.
  • Not being able to control your own CV is just a bad decision..that needs to change. Don't even understand that decision.
  • One of the most annoying things about playing against a CV is not even its alpha strike power..but its ability to spot ships as they move around the map. That hasn't seemed to have changed that much. Being unable to move around the map and play with your concealment means that ships tend to play very passively as even firing your guns from behind an island will get you spotted.
  • The strongest defense seems to be ships forming a kinda ball so that their combined AAA can counter the CV. But that's basically changing the entire game to defend against a single ship and that wont lead to compelling game-play and requires the type of teamwork that just doesn't exist in random battles.
  • The one place i think CV's actually work is in Clan Battle/organized play where the CV works in direct co-operation with his team-mates..but for some reason WG wont allow that which is a real shame. That needs to change.
  • While i know that we have to come up with something...CVs just aren't "fun" to play against and this game is supposed to be fun. So im personally at a loss as to how to balance them and still make it fun for the other players.

Anyway..thanks for sharing your experience with the rework...I guess we'll just have to wait to see what the final rework looks like.

 

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Well put....  Bugs I have seen, you launch the fighters and then launch the next way of attack planes and the planes don't render,  you are flying  and you can still attack, but you don't see the planes.  Would be nice to have some altitude control for dodging AA (after all we are expected to dodge it and planes move up and down, not just side to side.)

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2 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Wargaming has already said that they "heard player feedback" on the ship control issue, but that they had decided against simultaneous control because it would be "distracting". 

Given how ridiculously easy it is to manage multiple squadrons AND the ship in the current RTS-lite interface... the only way to take that is that Wargaming thinks most players are too stupid, too inept, too hapless to chew gum and walk at the same time.  

Of course the entire premise that the rework is needed because the RTS-lite interface is "too complex" or "too much multitasking" or "too much micromanagement" is insulting to begin with. 

The current interface is "too complex" for console, which is what motivated the rework in the first place.

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1 minute ago, KiyoSenkan said:

The current interface is "too complex" for console, which is what motivated the rework in the first place.

While less insulting as a reason, it's not great that they won't just admit that.

 

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Just now, KilljoyCutter said:

While less insulting as a reason, it's not great that they won't just admit that.

It's kinda obvious, they probably didn't think they had to.

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4 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's kinda obvious, they probably didn't think they had to.

Goes beyond that, with all the other supposed reasons they've tried very hard to sell while remaining silent on the console issue (and with many players vehemently denying that obvious actual motivation). 

 

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@MattttChris Just curious, I played a few games on the new CV test last night and only had access to the T4 CV's. When I looked in the tech tree, the other CV's just had a 'soon' plastered across them. How were you getting the higher tier CV's?

Also, in regards the T4 CV's, it is painful to do damage but the Hosho is horrendous. First game in the Hosho managed a lot of hits but only around 15k damage. first game in the Langley also a lot of hits but around 85k damage!

AA is a lot better now and plane control is a lot smoother, heading in the right direction WG!

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I’ve only tried the T4s from this test and the stronger ones from the 1st test. Forgive my lack of knowledge from not playing a lot of CV prior. All I can say is, I’m glad I’m not a cv main. 

  As I understand the original design, CVs were designed with teamwork in mind. Some ships sacrifice firepower, mobility, or armor for increased AA. Great! Makes sense. But the problem with most matches(even ranked) is that there is a tremendous lack of teamwork or even meaningful communication beyond zingers and one-liners. So a high level CV can dominate if he’s able to mitigate the other CV and then just wreck a team. But all of this falls apart when the cast supporting the CV falls. So, in a sense, CV was one of the few classes that absolutely relied on teammates for survival. You have the one class able to reach out and damage/spot a team from anywhere in the map so it needs a weakness beyond simply not having guns. It’s planes are it’s guns and they reach across the map and spot for you.

  I feel like the rework takes that element away. Being able to hit a target repeatedly without refitting allows one squadron to constantly harass and spot an enemy. Admittedly, at T4 with only rockets and bombs, it wasn’t a huge deal. The damage was honestly minuscule to the point of point of absurdity. Now I imagine the high tier CVs will be too strong or too weak. I understand they had to weaken them due to being able to spam bombs/rockets/torps but they have UNLIMITED planes. Where is the risk/ reward? I felt like I was dropping lumps of clay when do bombing runs while the rockets were ooook on cruisers and DDs I guess. But even still after enough time I chipped down a couple ships

  I guess what I’m trying to say is that it took two CV weaknesses(plane count and having to refit) and replaced them with nerfed damage which ultimately leads tediousness and, quite honestly, very little fun. That was just my experience and OP was far more experience in CVs than myself so I would take his word over mine. But think of my perspective as a CV who was interested in the rework. I don’t think they should cancel the rework per say but I do think that if they pushed the teamwork idea and provided adequate bonuses for team playing then this wouldn’t even be happening. They times a played CV were actually ok when a teammate wasn’t calling me a waste of life for not knowing what I’m doing but maybe I missed the mark here. I’ll keep trying the rework simply for the doubloons but it’s not a lot of fun for me. 

Edited by KnifeInUrNeck
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1 hour ago, hexeris said:

@MattttChris Just curious, I played a few games on the new CV test last night and only had access to the T4 CV's. When I looked in the tech tree, the other CV's just had a 'soon' plastered across them. How were you getting the higher tier CV's?

Also, in regards the T4 CV's, it is painful to do damage but the Hosho is horrendous. First game in the Hosho managed a lot of hits but only around 15k damage. first game in the Langley also a lot of hits but around 85k damage!

AA is a lot better now and plane control is a lot smoother, heading in the right direction WG!

They actually unlock from a combat mission that requires a certain amount of xp to go up to the next tier, usually 2-4 battles worth if you've played the other tests

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Just now, Tanuvein said:

They actually unlock from a combat mission that requires a certain amount of xp to go up to the next tier, usually 2-4 battles worth if you've played the other tests

Cheers for that, totally missed it, doh!:Smile_hiding:

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Honestly the only two things I disagree with in the OP's post are TBs being too hard to hit with (I thought this about the IJN ones specifically and still think maybe they could use come tweaking, but practice has a HUGE impact on this) and tier 10 planes just being too powerful.  Against a single ship sure, but when people edge ride or cooperate to form beefed up AA it changed quickly.  On that note I have to disagree from experience with @Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 on random battles being unable to offer teamwork on AA.  Back during open beta and then the several months before the great CV nerf it was quite common at the start of battles for cruisers with AA builds to announce themselves and escort groups of other cruisers/battleships.  If CVs coming back to the meta makes people group up like that for AA defense again I'm all for it since it also pushed BBs to the front with their escorts and in general makes battle lines happen.  It also means people going full YOLO (and I of course don't mean a DD trying to stealth capture or flank) will get punished even harder.

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good input.   the last 2 points in your ugly section are concerns i have as well.

 

US CVs, especially after the CE nerf will be spotted from the moon.   There were some maps, that without CE you use to be spotted from the opposite side of the caps in the middle, if you didn't reverse right away.  You can't really play too aggressively on several maps unlike the IJN CVs due to the concealment difference.

 

and not being able to control your CV manually is just annoying.  Auto pilot in this game is garbage when it comes to island avoidance. 

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Never made it past T4 CV because it's so bad.

That, and 2 game breaking bugs in 3 games. 

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I agree that the inability to manage your CV is burdensome.  I also agree with WG that simultaneous control could lead to problems.  I suggest a "toggle" key that allows you to surrender active flight control of the planes while you manage your CV and then "toggle" back to control of the planes.  The planes can simply be flying when the player is "toggled" to the CV.  This makes good use of the several seconds or more of flight time to get towards a target area.

I also hit my "F" key sending my planes back to the CV twice in one game when intending to hit the "D" key.  So I changed in to "P".  It's not like it's a quick response function.

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17 hours ago, FirestormMk3 said:

Honestly the only two things I disagree with in the OP's post are TBs being too hard to hit with (I thought this about the IJN ones specifically and still think maybe they could use come tweaking, but practice has a HUGE impact on this) and tier 10 planes just being too powerful.  Against a single ship sure, but when people edge ride or cooperate to form beefed up AA it changed quickly.  On that note I have to disagree from experience with @Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 on random battles being unable to offer teamwork on AA.  Back during open beta and then the several months before the great CV nerf it was quite common at the start of battles for cruisers with AA builds to announce themselves and escort groups of other cruisers/battleships.  If CVs coming back to the meta makes people group up like that for AA defense again I'm all for it since it also pushed BBs to the front with their escorts and in general makes battle lines happen.  It also means people going full YOLO (and I of course don't mean a DD trying to stealth capture or flank) will get punished even harder.

Ya I played in Beta as well and some people would definitely take the role of AAA CA/CL.

But not everyone wants to play an escort role nor will there always be a true AAA CA/CL in every game.

Personally do i want to devote that level of effort to simply counter one ship. That's kinda the point...CVs should not by their very presence force all other ships to completely change the way they play in order to not be focused by a CV.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Aardvar said:

I agree that the inability to manage your CV is burdensome.  I also agree with WG that simultaneous control could lead to problems.  I suggest a "toggle" key that allows you to surrender active flight control of the planes while you manage your CV and then "toggle" back to control of the planes.  The planes can simply be flying when the player is "toggled" to the CV.  This makes good use of the several seconds or more of flight time to get towards a target area.

I also hit my "F" key sending my planes back to the CV twice in one game when intending to hit the "D" key.  So I changed in to "P".  It's not like it's a quick response function.

+1 to this, been saying it since the first test.

4 minutes ago, Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 said:

Ya I played in Beta as well and some people would definitely take the role of AAA CA/CL.

But not everyone wants to play an escort role nor will there always be a true AAA CA/CL in every game.

Personally do i want to devote that level of effort to simply counter one ship. That's kinda the point...CVs should not by their very presence force all other ships to completely change the way they play in order to not be focused by a CV.

 

 

Sure, but that's the point, not everyone has to.  Overlapping AA is quite effective.  Only a few AA spec ships are necessary.  Secondary build battleships will already get a lot of benefit, and USN cruisers that have felt like they got shafted will matter again too.  Back in those days I'm sure you'll agree their AA suite mattered.  I'd like it to matter again.

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2 minutes ago, FirestormMk3 said:

+1 to this, been saying it since the first test.

Sure, but that's the point, not everyone has to.  Overlapping AA is quite effective.  Only a few AA spec ships are necessary.  Secondary build battleships will already get a lot of benefit, and USN cruisers that have felt like they got shafted will matter again too.  Back in those days I'm sure you'll agree their AA suite mattered.  I'd like it to matter again.

I think our BETA experiences are not incredibly relevant to today as the game and player-base has fundamentally changed as i think there was a stronger sense of camaraderie and with fewer ships back then the individual roles were more clearly defined.

Today i dont think were going to get that back, which is fine. Things change.

While id love to see a return to USN role of AAA CA (not sure that they ever lost that?) i also think it brings up further issues: Do you really want to invest a large portion of the Captain skills like AFT/BFT towards countering a single class? Again i think it creates a disproportional emphasis on trying to counter a single ship. I think the rework is getting closer..but many of the fundamental issues with CVs persist (vision control etc)

Again i think it comes down to CVs are a kind of "anti fun" class..where those who play them have "fun" and everyone else not so much.

Its somewhat like how the Haragumo is a kinda "mobile no fun zone". Fun for the Hara ...not so much for others. (joking)

:cap_rambo:

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18 hours ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

 ...but they have UNLIMITED planes. Where is the risk/ reward? 

The fact that you can only send out one squadron at a time, and the time needed to replace lost planes in the hangar, makes hangar size largely irrelevant.

You can see this with the current CVs. Play with only one squadron at a time, and see how long it takes you to run out of planes. And if the squadrons were smaller, (I believe low-tier squadrons are smaller in the rework than currently) it would take even longer to run out of planes, because you can't get as many planes killed at once.

There's still risk vs. reward, it's just reduced by being stretched out, like having $10k in your pocket, playing at a table with $100 max bet.

The risk is still there, it's just only the risk of being delayed in scoring, as opposed to that plus the additional risk of being completely neutered.

IOW, if you throw your planes away, you'll still score low like currently, you just aren't out of the game.

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22 minutes ago, Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 said:

 Do you really want to invest a large portion of the Captain skills like AFT/BFT towards countering a single class?

Why not? Many BB players run anti-fire builds to counter (mostly) cruisers.

I think it's more a case of including different skills for different reasons, and giving more of an incentive not to min/max.

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23 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Why not? Many BB players run anti-fire builds to counter (mostly) cruisers.

I think it's more a case of including different skills for different reasons, and giving more of an incentive not to min/max.

Ya but you see fire prevention has utility vs all ship types: DDs, CAs, and even BBs who fire HE... AFT/BFT is just vs CVs and the occasional spotter plane.

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3 minutes ago, Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 said:

Ya but you see fire prevention has utility vs all ship types: DDs, CAs, and even BBs who fire HE... AFT/BFT is just vs CVs and the occasional spotter plane.

This is why AFT and BFT also buff secondaries and small-caliber guns.

 

Just sayin'.

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