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Legio_X_

I was having fun with German line up until T7

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I loved the Bayern, was a great ship. Now that I'm into T7 and hitting T8-T9 ships, the German Dispersion is really showing its ugly head. You cannot long range fight because you will lose against better nations with far better accuracy. You cannot brawl or its VERY situational, because HE meta will just own you. It just seems like they are behind the 8-ball at all times and it's very hard to put the ship to its strengths, which is medium-close range.

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I have NO idea why German dispersion can be so bad at times. Insofar as I know IRL German ship gunnery was quite good.  Of course this is a game and not real life. Anyone!.....Was German ship gunnery in WWII as bad as it can be at times in this game?  

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38 minutes ago, dmckay said:

I have NO idea why German dispersion can be so bad at times. Insofar as I know IRL German ship gunnery was quite good.  Of course this is a game and not real life. Anyone!.....Was German ship gunnery in WWII as bad as it can be at times in this game?  

No.  The extra dispersion is meant to be the national flavor that promotes close range brawling over long range gunnery.  IJN battleships are the long range snipers.

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T7 does have good secondaries, excellent AA and torpedoes.  And Bismarck still is one of the most fun ships in the game so it’s worth whatever pain you have to go through. 

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You really have to play Gneisenau differently to make it work.  I had fun with her, but I didn't expect her to play like the Musashi, that's for sure. 

Bismarck is tons of fun.  Very well balanced ship that is fast, fun, furious, and reliable.  You could stop with Bismarck and be happy.

Freddy is weak, but she's getting buffed.

Kurfurst is the ultimate brawler, and worth the grind.  All main battery annoyances go away with Kurfurst and her 12 rifles.  In addition, she's got *the best* secondary battery in the game, and shreds anyone who gets close.

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1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

No.  The extra dispersion is meant to be the national flavor that promotes close range brawling over long range gunnery.  IJN battleships are the long range snipers.

Hmmm.  Interesting. I have Scharnhorst and she indeed does best at close range brawling with other BBs. Part of the issue is her guns are only 11 inch so ya need to get in close when engaging big gunned red BBs to really hurt them. Up close her main guns, secondaries (very good and long range) and torps will kill them in a brawl.  Problem now however is recently much of the time I am now low man fighting ships 2 tiers higher but this was not nearly so much the case when I first got her last winter.....things have changed and it's much tougher to get in close where she can really be deadly.  Seeing many more matches now where she is low tier fighting mostly tier 8 and 9. Much harder now to get in close where she can really be deadly. Win rate has dropped for me with her. Boo hoo. Still a very good ship however.  Deadly against cruisers but there are often not a lot of them in a match.  Gotta fight BBs!  Carry on.

Edited by dmckay

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I honestly like Gneisenau way better than Bismarck. I had Bisko, and I sold her back for Gneis. The MM is nicer to T7 ships than T8. I may rebuy Bismarck eventually, but not anytime soon. I also have Scharnhorst, and they are my two most played ships. I love them both. Scharn is secondary spec'd and Gneisenau as AA spec'd. Honestly, I would say you can stop at Gneisenau and feel happy. Although GK is worth the grind. Especially with the buffs to her RoF coming SoonTM. Read @LittleWhiteMouse's Gneisenau review. She's worth it. Gneis does play way different than ayren for sure. Bayern turns well and had overmatch and heavy broadside. Gneis goes fast in a straight line, has WAY better AA and brawls like no other due to her torps. Sure her gunnery is annoying at times, but that's all German BB's. Which is sad because historically they had some of the best fire control systems in the world on Bismarck and Scharn sisters. Stick with it. You;ll warm to her. I promise.

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    Gneis was a fun ship way back when I went through her. I think its the speed she has at the tier that made her feel so much different than anything else. Pick your situations wisely before you go charging in, or else someone in a Graf Spee will torp you.

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Both T7 BBs do a good job if you use them right.  You can get into some hairy situations and survive...then go what just happened???  They are bruisers but not immortals.

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On 11/28/2018 at 8:20 AM, Ace_04 said:

No.  The extra dispersion is meant to be the national flavor that promotes close range brawling over long range gunnery.  IJN battleships are the long range snipers.

Except that this doesn't work either because I can't hit broadside cruisers from <6km. The shells always dip under, sail over, or scatter into the wind like birdshot.  I'm terrified of Jap cruisers just because they can rush me, dump torps and there's no way I can stop them because I just can't get my shells to hit. Forget even bothering to deal with DD's.

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21 hours ago, MajorWang said:

Except that this doesn't work either because I can't hit broadside cruisers from <6km. The shells always dip under, sail over, or scatter into the wind like birdshot.  I'm terrified of Jap cruisers just because they can rush me, dump torps and there's no way I can stop them because I just can't get my shells to hit. Forget even bothering to deal with DD's.

To be honest with you, Bayern wasn't much of an enjoyable experience for me either, first time through.  One of only a handful of ships I used Free XP to speed up the grind.  I went back and revisited her much later and found better results, probably due to a better understanding of the German BBs, and game mechanics in general.

As for those Japanese cruisers, take some comfort in the fact that you get 6km torps starting with Gneisenau, so close quarter self defense becomes a bit more comfortable.

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I did not like Gneisenau on my initial playthrough grinding up the German BB Line.  Main Battery Build, Secondary Spec, didn't matter.

 

However, with more time in the game and a desire to try an AA Build on her, I went back to her and had a great time.  She is still in AA Spec for me and she's treated me nicely.  No FP, no BOS, no SBM2, no ASM1.  She's been good to me.

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I just had an Atago kite the crap out of me in the T7 BB. He just angled and spammed HE on me. No matter how many shots I fired the dispersion just killed me and I would only get 1-2 hits and most others bounced. Good lord I felt helpless. That dude had me and there not a damn thing I could do.

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20 hours ago, Legio_X_ said:

I just had an Atago kite the crap out of me in the T7 BB. He just angled and spammed HE on me. No matter how many shots I fired the dispersion just killed me and I would only get 1-2 hits and most others bounced. Good lord I felt helpless. That dude had me and there not a damn thing I could do.

Run.

You're as fast as he was, so there's no reason to keep up an engagement you can't win. He has to kite at near max range, and you can simply stealth up and leave. Even if you're still spotted, he can't chase and shoot at you effectively.

Knowing when to quit is just as important as knowing when to engage.

Edited by LAnybody

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I was thinking of going up the German BB line... but posts like this scare me. I do have fun in the Tirptiz time to time, but... yeah, dispersion can be an issue long range. I play mostly coop, and it's completely different from randoms. Maybe i'll just finish grinding out the Japanese BB line and stay there until I get a better hang of the game.

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3 hours ago, Matross said:

I was thinking of going up the German BB line... but posts like this scare me. I do have fun in the Tirptiz time to time, but... yeah, dispersion can be an issue long range. I play mostly coop, and it's completely different from randoms. Maybe i'll just finish grinding out the Japanese BB line and stay there until I get a better hang of the game.

In Co-op, German BBs are absolutely The Best BBs to play.  Unlike Randoms, every Co-op game is a brawl.  The targets come to you to die.  You got turtlebacks, many German BBs got Mega Secondaries.  The wonky German BB dispersion at medium and longer ranges is a non-factor when in Co-op, almost all your fighting is 12km or less.

 

Tirpitz, Bismarck, FDG, GK are some of the best, easiest ships you can take to Co-op.

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On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 8:41 AM, dmckay said:

Hmmm.  Interesting. I have Scharnhorst and she indeed does best at close range brawling with other BBs. Part of the issue is her guns are only 11 inch so ya need to get in close when engaging big gunned red BBs to really hurt them. Up close her main guns, secondaries (very good and long range) and torps will kill them in a brawl.  Problem now however is recently much of the time I am now low man fighting ships 2 tiers higher but this was not nearly so much the case when I first got her last winter.....things have changed and it's much tougher to get in close where she can really be deadly.  Seeing many more matches now where she is low tier fighting mostly tier 8 and 9. Much harder now to get in close where she can really be deadly. Win rate has dropped for me with her. Boo hoo. Still a very good ship however.  Deadly against cruisers but there are often not a lot of them in a match.  Gotta fight BBs!  Carry on.

Ditto for me. I had not bought a new ship for 6 months being quite content staying at T7. Now I am having to reluctantly reconsider my decision not to play higher tiers. My only T8 is Cleveland which is fine if there is an island waifu but kiting only goes so far when kiting from a T10 BB. Not sure which T8 BB will do best against T10, especially since I prefer brawling. Will I have to go to T10?  Or drop back down to T4 which I have not played for some time?

Any suggestions?

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On 11/28/2018 at 8:16 AM, Legio_X_ said:

I loved the Bayern, was a great ship. Now that I'm into T7 and hitting T8-T9 ships, the German Dispersion is really showing its ugly head. You cannot long range fight because you will lose against better nations with far better accuracy. You cannot brawl or its VERY situational, because HE meta will just own you. It just seems like they are behind the 8-ball at all times and it's very hard to put the ship to its strengths, which is medium-close range.

I think the Germans are best fighting at or near their detection range.  Any farther and the dispersion is likely to troll you, any closer and you get focused and melted.  The other thing with brawling is you have to know when to do it and when not to.  If you are going into a brawl you have to make sure you limit the number of other enemies that have shots at you using islands or range.  I have also found that at tier9-10 a full secondary build isn't worth it (IMO) because most of the fights happen farther out and the few hundred damage you might get from your secondaries at 10+ km isn't worth it.  I go survival or build for MB accuracy, but that's just me. 

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8 hours ago, Player_9953674122 said:

Ditto for me. I had not bought a new ship for 6 months being quite content staying at T7. Now I am having to reluctantly reconsider my decision not to play higher tiers. My only T8 is Cleveland which is fine if there is an island waifu but kiting only goes so far when kiting from a T10 BB. Not sure which T8 BB will do best against T10, especially since I prefer brawling. Will I have to go to T10?  Or drop back down to T4 which I have not played for some time?

Any suggestions?

NC is arguably the strongest T8 BB.  I like my 8s but almost never play them because you are always low tier.  

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On 11/28/2018 at 8:20 AM, Ace_04 said:

No.  The extra dispersion is meant to be the national flavor that promotes close range brawling over long range gunnery.  IJN battleships are the long range snipers.

WarGimmick showing its hand again.

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You feel the dispersion on The Gneisenau more since she has so few rifles.  That being said,  she was always more accurate then other German BB's for me and the addition of torpedoes gives her a nice little surprise for anyone who gets close.

I enjoyed the Bayern through the Bismarck for different reasons.  The Bayern is a juggernaut for her tier,  the Gneis is a complete switch from that,  sacrificing armor and guns for speed and torpedoes.  The Bizzy is a nice mix of the previous two.  The Freddy....well,  the Kurfurst is worth the grind.

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Unfortunately, the accuracy (or, should I say *in*accuracy) of the KM BB guns is getting ludicrously stupid.

I now regularly miss 7 out of 10 shots at under 10km with my Bis and Gnei, and now that they've introduced the weather maps, I'm missing almost 85% of my shots. 

At ranges down to 4km, I still can't get 50% hits. I regularly watch waterline-aimed broadsides have half their shells sail OVER the entire top of the superstructure.

That's simply not OK. And really is broken.

I'm fine with not being able to hit anything out past 15km, and having really bad hit rate out past 10km. But these are supposed to be brawling BBs. And, I'm sorry, but secondaries aren't even close to being sufficient damage output. Main guns must be able to hit, too.  And when I see less than 50% hit rate on shells fired under 5km (not just me, but all over the place), it's stupid.

It's gotten so bad that I can now feel pretty confident in yolo-ing a KM BB at close range, because I know their guns aren't a severe threat. Sure, they might be able to manage 1 citadel, or maybe 2 pens across 2 salvos on me when I rush in a torp-equipped CA, but I can handle that. Rushing a brawling BB should be death. It's actually the opposite - rushing a KM BB is by far the safest line to rush, and easily the most survivable for the rusher. 

I'm not 100% sure how the combination of Sigma and Dispersion and shell weight/drag result in the patter we see now, but there needs to be some sort of adjustment - KM BBs need to hit *at least* as often as a US or French BB at close (<8km) ranges, and then should be pure RNG out past 12km.

What I've found is that I have to use HE.  Because the hit rate is so ludicrously bad, very, very few AP hits land somewhere they can pen (let alone citadel). I'd estimate 75%+ of my AP hits are overpens, because they're flying out into the bows/stern/superstructure.  HE is the only way to get decent damage - 3 hits from HE gives me something, whereas 3 overpens are pittance in damage.

Edited by LAnybody
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